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Atheists believe in miracles more than believers

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
But they do know - based on the information they have.

Then they get new information.
Then they demonstrate the humility to say they were wrong.
Then they fix it.
The information they have may not really fit in with the proposition. But it may be interpreted to fit. But the proposition of transition by natural selection via mutations is simply not substantiated except in the minds of those believing in the process. There is no actual evidence of the transitional changes as they supposedly occured. Now I realize there are those who will vote "yes" to the propositions, and there may be those who vote "no," it cannot conclusively be demonstrated that the miniscule changes necessary to effect a change in species has occurred. It is only proposed that way as if it is reality. But it is not. Because -- no one has seen fish evolve to land dwellers and then humans.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
And in the meantime they can make statements as if they 'know.' But they may not.
It's understood that nothing's certain. Science is an investigational modality. Explanations are altered as new evidence emerges. At a given time, what science believes is the best explanation congruent with current evidence.
 

TLK Valentine

Read the books that others would burn.
it cannot conclusively be demonstrated that the miniscule changes necessary to effect a change in species has occurred. It is only proposed that way as if it is reality. But it is not. Because -- no one has seen fish evolve to land dwellers and then humans.
It has been demonstrated that they can occur, and lacking any alternative that can occur, it's the front runner.

That's why evolution is a fact, in that we know that species do indeed evolve, while natural selection is the theory that best fits the facts.

Don't like the theory? Fine. Present an alternative that fits the facts.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The information they have may not really fit in with the proposition. But it may be interpreted to fit. But the proposition of transition by natural selection via mutations is simply not substantiated except in the minds of those believing in the process. There is no actual evidence of the transitional changes as they supposedly occured. Now I realize there are those who will vote "yes" to the propositions, and there may be those who vote "no," it cannot conclusively be demonstrated that the miniscule changes necessary to effect a change in species has occurred. It is only proposed that way as if it is reality. But it is not. Because -- no one has seen fish evolve to land dwellers and then humans.
Who's going to "see" something that takes a thousand generations.
Personally, I've never seen an animal poof into being. I expect noöne has.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
"Cladistics" do not necessarily reveal the truth about how life from the start came about, I.e., as purported in the theory of evolution. But if you want to believe that humans are monkeys as well as fish -- you go for it.
That's not what cladistics is meant to do. As you well know, the part I've highlighted refers to abiogenesis, not evolution.
Why do you insist on repeating these same misunderstandings and inaccuracies over and over and over and over and over .... again?
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
I'll leave my life in God's hands. Not what scientists say. By the way, just to say, some medications given freely by docs via science in the U.S. are banned in Europe plus more. I take meds. Just saying. You want to believe science in all their conjecturing or statements? You go right ahead. As for me I know what saved my life...
Did you just say that you need science to live ("I take meds") and then follow it up by saying there's no good reason to "believe science?"
Seriously?
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
The information they have may not really fit in with the proposition. But it may be interpreted to fit. But the proposition of transition by natural selection via mutations is simply not substantiated except in the minds of those believing in the process. There is no actual evidence of the transitional changes as they supposedly occured. Now I realize there are those who will vote "yes" to the propositions, and there may be those who vote "no," it cannot conclusively be demonstrated that the miniscule changes necessary to effect a change in species has occurred. It is only proposed that way as if it is reality. But it is not. Because -- no one has seen fish evolve to land dwellers and then humans.
Every single thing you've said here is wrong.
And every single thing you've said here has been corrected umpteen times, and here you are still trying to pass it off.
Why do you do this?
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
It seems contradictory, but if you see it from this perspective you will understand:

A believer considers miracles to be the result of a display of knowledge and power on the part of a conscious person.
An atheist believes that things that exist came out of nothing in a miraculous way, obeying some natural laws that emerged out of nowhere, by themselves.

So who is the one who believes in miracles? ;)
From my experience, atheists ( meaning “internet atheist”) don’t believe that things come from nothing, (nor they deny it ether) they keep an ambiguous and flexible view where they don’t claim nor deny anything , so that they can avoid the burden proof and “win” the debate with semantics


But you point is true, atheist believe in more amazing things than theist (weather if they label it as miracle or not is irrelevant)
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Did you just say that you need science to live ("I take meds") and then follow it up by saying there's no good reason to "believe science?"
Seriously?
I decide who I believe and what medical action I will take. Doctors certainly can be wrong but that usually goes unheralded in the press. For instance, one particular medication I researched that is popular in the United States is banned in certain parts of Europe. There are others. Why do you think that is?
I have decided that under the presentation of the Darwinian theory of evolution, there simply is nothing more than puzzle pieces that (some) scientists want to make it fit the framework as if it means these organisms evolved by mutation leading to "natural selection," etc. But there is nothing to verify that.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Due to the way humans think today it is necessary to think to study reality or even to peel an orange (at least for the first time). I don't want to turn this into a semantical argument and this is not my intent here. And I agree "They interpret and seek to explain, hence interpretation and explanation are intrinsic to science". However it is still true and relevant that ALL ideas, ALL consciousness, ALL thinking is individual. It seems like science thinks because all Peers agree on their models and don't notice the slight differences from one peer to the next.

Science (the vector sum total of thought) changes when any peer dies. Eventually the paradigm always changes and then there is a new model among peers and each one still varies. Science doesn't think, act, invent, or learn. It is a methodology with a distinct metaphysics. It is not some supernatural being that gives homo omnisciencis every answer by reading the text books.

Except that you have always play the semantic games.

The things are, you have always use your own semantics, the ones you have made up, believing your warped words & definitions to be correct, when no one use used the words, except you.

That’s the level of intellectual dishonesty that I have seen from you, time and time again.

Take this term “homo omniscencis”, for instance. No one use this term, except you, because this homo omnisciencis don’t exist, but you’ll use it whenever & wherever you get the chance, here and elsewhere. The homo omnisciencis is only used by you, but the fictitious vocabulary that no one else would use.

The homo omnisciencis is certainly not biological classification of any taxonomic model.

It is silly word salad that you have invented to describe a history or historical event that never happened except in your imaginary fantasy.

And it isn’t the only thing, that you invented that is also fictitious.

For instance. You have these misinformed & misused reasonings about Peer Review, as to what they do or don’t do, that are untrue, as you have invented conspiracy theory about their powers, authorities that they don’t have, like this:

It seems like science thinks because all Peers agree on their models and don't notice the slight differences from one peer to the next.

…and this…

Science (the vector sum total of thought) changes when any peer dies. Eventually the paradigm always changes and then there is a new model among peers and each one still varies. Science doesn't think, act, invent, or learn. It is a methodology with a distinct metaphysics. It is not some supernatural being that gives homo omnisciencis every answer by reading the text books.

You have invented fantasised scenarios about the peers that don’t exist, and they do what you are claiming they do, but that has never happened.

You seemed to get these kicks, out of making false claims, some conspiracy nonsensical narratives that you have made up about them…the questions are why?

Why would you make up something that has never happened?​
Why are you motivated to make up these conspiracy theories about these peers?​

Is it because at the one time you try to publish something, but they rejected your work, your model?

Is this revenge for the rejection and not having your model published, so instead of resolving your grievance with the one peer, you have decided to blame ALL peers with generalisation & innuendo as if all peers are the same as the one who rejected your work?

When people (authors of hypotheses) try to submit their works for publication, the publishers will try to have someone independent to review the submitted works, who would either belong in the same field as the respective authors, or someone related to those fields.

Say hypothetically, your hypothesis is in the field of genetics, then the person or persons who would review your work, would be either geneticist or molecular biologist or any biologist who have experiences in that field. They would try to match the peer’s experience with your own expertise. The point, is they wouldn’t sent anyone to review your hypothesis, who don’t belong in the same or related field as you do, like a quantum physicist or geologist or astrophysicist, etc.

So once the publisher has right person or people to review your work, they would analyse your explanatory models & predictive models and they should analyse any data acquired from evidence or experiments that you have submitted along with your hypothesis.

Their duties are to look for errors, to check if the data match with your respective models or not. And if necessarily, they might follow your hypothesis’ instructions to reproduce the experiment or experiments that you should have done. Should the test results don’t match your own data or don’t match the specifications of your predictive modelling, or your instructions on how to carry out the experiment has error(s), then it could be one of the reasons to reject your hypothesis.

But if you didn’t submit any data at all, then that would be automatic rejection of your hypothesis. Hypothesis required data acquired from any test, whether they be experiments or evidence.

Publishers of scientific journals use peer review, to help determine which hypothesis is scientific or not scientific. Sometimes a hypothesis can be scientifically sound, and yet require more works to be done, more data, and therefore more evidence.

Take for instance Abiogenesis, is one of those hypotheses that have been experimentally tested and verified some parts or some models, but it is still a hypothesis, as it still required more more research and more evidence.

The reasons why no scientists have submitted Intelligent Design for Peer Review, eg Specific Complexity by William Dembski or Irreducible Complexity by Michael Behe, is because they have no predictive models, no instructions on how to test their respective models, and no data that can verify their respective models. These are the reasons why they submitted their works for publication from publishers that have no peer review.

Every publishers have their editors and “book reviewers”, but book reviewers are not the same as peer reviewers, as book reviewers don’t need scientific backgrounds (eg qualifications and experiences in field(s) in any science), and don’t need scientific knowledge, and more importantly, book reviewers don’t analyse any model or test results (eg data).

A book review is a critical analysis of literary contents, and they would either like or not like the pre-published manuscripts. These type of reviews are not there to analyse scientific mechanics of any scientific model.

Peer Review are there to like or dislike a hypothesis. The peer reviewers are only there ensure there are no errors in the hypothesis, and to make sure the data are available for analysis, and that the data are not biased, or worse, fraudulent (eg doctoring measurements or quantities).

Your claim about Peer Review, is simply a work of fiction, possibly because of your resentment towards one of them who had rejected your work.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
What Genesis stories of creation & flood are based on Mesopotamian myths, which never happened the ways they say it did.
What is your claim really? Are you claiming that the genesis stories were absolutely based on or copied from Mesopotamian "myths"? What's your exact claim and how do you prove your claim with clear evidence?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Except that you have always play the semantic games.

The things are, you have always use your own semantics, the ones you have made up, believing your warped words & definitions to be correct, when no one use used the words, except you.

That’s the level of intellectual dishonesty that I have seen from you, time and time again.

Take this term “homo omniscencis”, for instance. No one use this term, except you, because this homo omnisciencis don’t exist, but you’ll use it whenever & wherever you get the chance, here and elsewhere. The homo omnisciencis is only used by you, but the fictitious vocabulary that no one else would use.

The homo omnisciencis is certainly not biological classification of any taxonomic model.

It is silly word salad that you have invented to describe a history or historical event that never happened except in your imaginary fantasy.

And it isn’t the only thing, that you invented that is also fictitious.

For instance. You have these misinformed & misused reasonings about Peer Review, as to what they do or don’t do, that are untrue, as you have invented conspiracy theory about their powers, authorities that they don’t have, like this:



…and this…



You have invented fantasised scenarios about the peers that don’t exist, and they do what you are claiming they do, but that has never happened.

You seemed to get these kicks, out of making false claims, some conspiracy nonsensical narratives that you have made up about them…the questions are why?

Why would you make up something that has never happened?​
Why are you motivated to make up these conspiracy theories about these peers?​

Is it because at the one time you try to publish something, but they rejected your work, your model?

Is this revenge for the rejection and not having your model published, so instead of resolving your grievance with the one peer, you have decided to blame ALL peers with generalisation & innuendo as if all peers are the same as the one who rejected your work?

When people (authors of hypotheses) try to submit their works for publication, the publishers will try to have someone independent to review the submitted works, who would either belong in the same field as the respective authors, or someone related to those fields.

Say hypothetically, your hypothesis is in the field of genetics, then the person or persons who would review your work, would be either geneticist or molecular biologist or any biologist who have experiences in that field. They would try to match the peer’s experience with your own expertise. The point, is they wouldn’t sent anyone to review your hypothesis, who don’t belong in the same or related field as you do, like a quantum physicist or geologist or astrophysicist, etc.

So once the publisher has right person or people to review your work, they would analyse your explanatory models & predictive models and they should analyse any data acquired from evidence or experiments that you have submitted along with your hypothesis.

Their duties are to look for errors, to check if the data match with your respective models or not. And if necessarily, they might follow your hypothesis’ instructions to reproduce the experiment or experiments that you should have done. Should the test results don’t match your own data or don’t match the specifications of your predictive modelling, or your instructions on how to carry out the experiment has error(s), then it could be one of the reasons to reject your hypothesis.

But if you didn’t submit any data at all, then that would be automatic rejection of your hypothesis. Hypothesis required data acquired from any test, whether they be experiments or evidence.

Publishers of scientific journals use peer review, to help determine which hypothesis is scientific or not scientific. Sometimes a hypothesis can be scientifically sound, and yet require more works to be done, more data, and therefore more evidence.

Take for instance Abiogenesis, is one of those hypotheses that have been experimentally tested and verified some parts or some models, but it is still a hypothesis, as it still required more more research and more evidence.

The reasons why no scientists have submitted Intelligent Design for Peer Review, eg Specific Complexity by William Dembski or Irreducible Complexity by MichaelR Behe, is because they have no predictive models, no instructions on how to test their respective models, and no data that can verify their respective models. These are the reasons why they submitted their works for publication from publishers that have no peer review.

Every publishers have their editors and “book reviewers”, but book reviewers are not the same as peer reviewers, as book reviewers don’t need scientific backgrounds (eg qualifications and experiences in field(s) in any science), and don’t need scientific knowledge, and more importantly, book reviewers don’t analyse any model or test results (eg data).

A book review is a critical analysis of literary contents, and they would either like or not like the pre-published manuscripts. These type of reviews are not there to analyse scientific mechanics of any scientific model.

Peer Review are there to like or dislike a hypothesis. The peer reviewers are only there ensure there are no errors in the hypothesis, and to make sure the data are available for analysis, and that the data are not biased, or worse, fraudulent (eg doctoring measurements or quantities).

Your claim about Peer Review, is simply a work of fiction, possibly because of your resentment towards one of them who had rejected your work.
Regarding "peer review," I am going to bring out that there are agencies within various countries that test medications. Yet -- some medications are not allowed in countries while they are allowed in others. Scientists ban them. Or allow them. So much for "peer review." And that by highly education people who have different standards. PLUS -- medications can be tested. And, of course, depending on situation, some are banned while the same medication is not banned in other countries. There ARE no tests for "natural selection" and "survival of the fittest" leading to evolution of fish, for example, leading to -- homo sapiens. It's guesswork based on what is thought by some scientists to be practically irrefutable so-called "evidence" as they see it of flopping fish types that supposedly emerged to land dwelling animals. Absolutely nothing to really support this. But obviously many believe it.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Can you quote an actual example of @YoursTrue beign wrong? (quote his words)

It’s “her” words…”he” is really a “she”.

You want to believe science in all their conjecturing or statements?

Science isn’t merely a conjecture.

A scientific theory is well-substantiated models of explanations and predictions. and the only way for a model to be “well-substantiated“, is by testing each models (individually), and such tests must include observations of the evidence or experiments, plus the data (examples of data -quantities, measurements, physical properties such as their compositions (WHAT they made of) and the mechanisms (HOW they work), etc).

Explanations without testable data, evidence or experiments, might well be conjectures.

You might consider hypothesis to be conjecture, until the hypothesis has been tested and verified as being “probable”. But hypothesis don’t become automatically accepted as science, until such hypothesis has been rigorously tested, analysed and verified.

And even then it is only a candidate of being a new “scientific theory“. There may well be another hypothesis (or more) that researching the same thing, but possibly explaining it better, or have more thorough tests.

But a scientific theory have models that been rigorously tested and analysed, as in independently tested by other scientists, then the scientific explanation is no longer merely conjecture.

That‘s not to say science is always right.

Science isn’t omniscient, isnt infallible or inerrant.

Every sciences, are learning processes, people can make mistakes, including scientists, because they themselves are humans. Even if a scientist has evidence that seems to verify his or her hypothesis, could possibly analyse the evidence or data incorrectly. But that’s what Peer Review are there for, to analyse the hypothesis, analyse the evidence and data, to find any error.

As I said, science is learning processes, and the evidence or experiments should provide some information (data) that scientists can learn from. If the scientists have made analysis that were incorrect, then he could either try to fix the hypothesis or ditch the hypothesis.

As a learning process, we can learn just from errors and failures, as much as from successes, and the reason being, is not to repeat the error.

Any person, not just talking about scientists in this paragraph, anyone who makes a mistake or error, should be able to learn from it. That should apply to anyone, including scientists. But if a person cannot learn from his mistakes, then that person is being wilfully ignorant or arrogant, because that person is allowing his or her ego & biases to dictate what they are doing.

Science isn’t about perfect knowledge, as there are no such perfection. Take astronomy for instance, it has a long history, and lot of them are wrong, and even today, there are new discoveries, and therefore new things to learn. Astronomers should learn about the past mistakes, learn from it, and do better.

She (YoursTrue) doesn’t understand that.

But in her post, she provided an example.


In what YoursTrue stated, about medicine that has been available in the US, but banned in Europe (or vice versa), might well be true…

…BUT she didn’t specify which medicine or treatment have been banned; she offered no specifics, no information whatsoever, as to why such medicine has been banned at one place or another. It is just a vague “what if” example, that may or may not be true.

It is a generalised post from YoursTrue.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
It’s “her” words…”he” is really a “she”.



Science isn’t merely a conjecture.

A scientific theory is well-substantiated models of explanations and predictions. and the only way for a model to be “well-substantiated“, is by testing each models (individually), and such tests must include observations of the evidence or experiments, plus the data (examples of data -quantities, measurements, physical properties such as their compositions (WHAT they made of) and the mechanisms (HOW they work), etc).

Explanations without testable data, evidence or experiments, might well be conjectures.

You might consider hypothesis to be conjecture, until the hypothesis has been tested and verified as being “probable”. But hypothesis don’t become automatically accepted as science, until such hypothesis has been rigorously tested, analysed and verified.

And even then it is only a candidate of being a new “scientific theory“. There may well be another hypothesis (or more) that researching the same thing, but possibly explaining it better, or have more thorough tests.

But a scientific theory have models that been rigorously tested and analysed, as in independently tested by other scientists, then the scientific explanation is no longer merely conjecture.

That‘s not to say science is always right.

Science isn’t omniscient, isnt infallible or inerrant.

Every sciences, are learning processes, people can make mistakes, including scientists, because they themselves are humans. Even if a scientist has evidence that seems to verify his or her hypothesis, could possibly analyse the evidence or data incorrectly. But that’s what Peer Review are there for, to analyse the hypothesis, analyse the evidence and data, to find any error.

As I said, science is learning processes, and the evidence or experiments should provide some information (data) that scientists can learn from. If the scientists have made analysis that were incorrect, then he could either try to fix the hypothesis or ditch the hypothesis.

As a learning process, we can learn just from errors and failures, as much as from successes, and the reason being, is not to repeat the error.

Any person, not just talking about scientists in this paragraph, anyone who makes a mistake or error, should be able to learn from it. That should apply to anyone, including scientists. But if a person cannot learn from his mistakes, then that person is being wilfully ignorant or arrogant, because that person is allowing his or her ego & biases to dictate what they are doing.

Science isn’t about perfect knowledge, as there are no such perfection. Take astronomy for instance, it has a long history, and lot of them are wrong, and even today, there are new discoveries, and therefore new things to learn. Astronomers should learn about the past mistakes, learn from it, and do better.

She (YoursTrue) doesn’t understand that.

But in her post, she provided an example.


In what YoursTrue stated, about medicine that has been available in the US, but banned in Europe (or vice versa), might well be true…

…BUT she didn’t specify which medicine or treatment have been banned; she offered no specifics, no information whatsoever, as to why such medicine has been banned at one place or another. It is just a vague “what if” example, that may or may not be true.

It is a generalised post from YoursTrue.
I'm surprised you need an example of what medications are literally banned in some parts of Europe because you put so much emphasis on your beliefs and trust science so much. Once again, just so you understand, I am not anti-science, it depends on what is being examined or spoken of as to whether I believe everything scientists may purport. Interestingly enough, we hear in the U.S. sometimes of certain ones arrested when they carry medications in their bags that may be legally prescribed in the United States but banned in Europe. You might take a look at 9 Common Medications That Are Banned in Other Countries for specifics.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
What is your claim really? Are you claiming that the genesis stories were absolutely based on or copied from Mesopotamian "myths"? What's your exact claim and how do you prove your claim with clear evidence?

Do you really think Genesis is the earliest creation narrative?

There are creation stories that are much older than the 6th century BCE Genesis, from their neighbours in Mesopotamia and in Egypt.

Do you really think Abrahamic religions invented the watery beginning of Earth (Genesis 1:1-2)?

Most of the Egyptian myths speak of primeval ocean of water (Nu), before their respective gods created dry lands, particularly the Heliopolitian myth of Atum, or the later Sun god Ra.

The Sumerian Abuz and Akkadian/Babylonian primeval Tiamat (salted water) and Aspu (fresh water) are the Mesopotamian versions of the biblical oceanic abyss, eg Enūma Eliš.

Creating humans from soils (more specifically clay soil) existed in both Egyptian and Mesopotamian stories, predating by centuries before Genesis and millennia before the Qur’an were composed.

The abrahamic creation narratives are not unique.

So, yes, the Genesis Creation (as well as the Flood) are based on Babylonian myths, and the Jews have been living in Babylon for some decades in the 6th century BCE, prior to the Second Temple period.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
You keep forgetting that your God didn’t write the Bible.

Nor do what Jewish and Christian traditions say that moses being attributed as the author of the Genesis & Exodus. Neither of these 2 books exist in the late Bronze Age.

the Genesis creation was more than likely based on one of the following Babylonian sources that are known to 6th century BCE Babylon, where royals, aristocrats and priests were exiled at:
  • Enūma Eliš - the Epic of Creation,
  • Epic of Atrahasis - which contains both creation and flood stories.
The order of creation is quite similar to the Enūma Eliš. The primeval watery beginning, the creation of dry lands, creation of sun, moon & stars, creation of animals and then humans.

Where Genesis is most likely composed in the 6th century BCE, the Enūma Eliš was composed in the mid 16th century BCE, and the Epic of Atrahasis, is even older still, as it was originally composed in 17th century BCE, as the oldest version was written in Old Babylonian.

Moses seemed to have lived in the 15th century BCE, but the Hebrew alphabet didn’t exist until after the 11th century BCE (Paleo-Hebrew). What scholars called Biblical Hebrew referred to 10th century BCE, and yet no biblical books exist in that century.

What Genesis stories of creation & flood are based on Mesopotamian myths, which never happened the ways they say it did.

But then again, I shouldn’t be surprised by attitude of rejecting science, as I always thought you were anti-science.
Sorry, please excuse if I don't read all your posts. However, I did not ever say, to the best of my memory, that God wrote the Bible.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
I'm surprised you need an example of what medications are literally banned in some parts of Europe because you put so much emphasis on your beliefs and trust science so much. Once again, just so you understand, I am not anti-science, it depends on what is being examined or spoken of as to whether I believe everything scientists may purport. Interestingly enough, we hear in the U.S. sometimes of certain ones arrested when they carry medications in their bags that may be legally prescribed in the United States but banned in Europe. You might take a look at 9 Common Medications That Are Banned in Other Countries for specifics.

you seem to be speaking of personal experience, but your earlier post was rather too vague. But it isn’t just between the US & Europe. in the us, what are available in some states, are banned from others…I get that that.

But medicine have some side-effects that could be fatal, and I understand that too. And some medicine might work for some people, but no all, because human physiology varied, eg allergies can cause problems for some people, but here medical sciences can only do so much.

What may work for some populations, may not work for other populations. There are no such thing as perfect medicine, or perfect vaccine or perfect antibiotic. There are no such things as cure for all, in medicine.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Sorry, please excuse if I don't read all your posts. However, I did not ever say, to the best of my memory, that God wrote the Bible.

Then why do you think the Bible has no errors, no flaws, no contradictions?

Because that’s what I read from some of your posts…that the Bible is perfect.

Am I wrong in my reading of your posts?
 
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