• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Atheists believe in miracles more than believers

cladking

Well-Known Member
You: "I avoid all belief."
Me: "Except the belief that you avoid all belief, right?"
You: "No. I believe this is a fact."

All homo omniscience see what we believe and experience reality only in terms of our beliefs.

I am homo omniscience so I experience reality in terms of my beliefs. Deductive reasoning almost always works if definitions remain constant. Inductive reasoning is a more slippery slope because abstraction are wholly symbolic, have fluid definitions, and are always case specific. Some are better than others at it, but I avoid even trying.

I believe all belief is superstition hence I try to avoid beliefs in my models. The only true knowledge is experiential knowledge anyway so who needs abstractions and inductive logic.

In order to communicate we must have beliefs. All sorts and types of belief. We must believe we can differentiate between "to", "two", "too", and "tu tu" to even try to understand language.

Homo omnisciencis communicates much differently than any other species including the extinct homo sapiens. This affects our perceptions of reality. It affects the way we think. It affects every individuals' estimation of his own knowledge today and all the way back to when the species suddenly arose ~2000 BC.

Nobody can avoid having beliefs and many people never question their beliefs.

Science is a tool, a methodology, wholly dependent on its metaphysics. It is reductionistic and none of the things that describe life or how it changes has even yet been defined. That makes EVERYTHING not based in experiment a belief system rather than fact. Your belief, for instance, that religion is superstition has never been shown experimentally so using such a definition is the very epitome of a circular argument; homo circularis rationatio.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
That's what 'fitness' means in evolution.

Still a circular argument.

If I define an object circling a distant star as green cheese it will remain green cheese until such time as it is proven otherwise. You have assumed the conclusion based not on experiment but the interpretation of evidence in terms of your definitions. This is the nature of thought.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Preserve us from philosophers trying to do science without learning enough about it. He comes up with some examples and then gives the reasons from special relativity as to why they're wrong. Undeterred, he then goes off into pre-relativity classical physics.

Also, worth noting that the discussion is within the context of time. 'Simultaneous' doesn't mean anything without time. It's also relative within space-time: Relativity of simultaneity.


The problem you have is that causality means something within space-time and physics. If you're going to try and use it outside that context, you'll have to actually define what you mean by it when it's stripped of all the temporal implications.
So it boils down to semantics…………….. ok if in your own personal mind causation means “something with space time”………..then tell me what other word should I use? All I am saying is that “something” supernatural is responsible for the existence for the natural world ……….usually “cause” is an appropriate term, but feel free to invent and share your own personal word to substitute “cause”

Please let’s avoid 100+ of semantic discussions……….just tell me how should I substitute the word “cause”
I have no idea why physical reality exists, but making up some "non-physical" reason for it doesn't help because we then have two realms of reality to ask the same question about.

It's a giant leap in the wrong direction.
Ok you are not being asked to expalin why physical reality excists, you are jsut ebing asked to provide an alternative that is better than mine

My alternative being “the physical/natural word exists because due to the intervention of a nonphysical thing.

The only alternatives I can think off are

1 the physical world came from nothing

2 the physical world has always existed (for an infinite amount of time)

3 something else that I haven’t thought off

So what alternative do you suggest and why is it better than mine?



Please please, quite your impulse of making a semantic game out of this
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Entanglement does not violate relativity because you can't transfer 'classical' information using it. Singularities are a prediction of relativity. Numbers aren't physical. Ideas of other universes are extrapolated from our current scientific understanding. There is no evidence that 'supernatural entities' are real.
Entanglement (if real) gives you cause and effect without time in between………….this strongly challenges your view that you need time in order to have cause and effect.

Singularities (if real) do not follow the laws of relativity ……….challenging your view that everything is restricted by relativity

Numbers (if real) would not be physical objects that are not restricted by relativity, the same is true wit h Gods and supernatural entities

Other universes (if real) might have other laws and might not follow relativity

My point is that unless you can show beyond reasonable doubt that none of these are real ………..your claims about time and relativity are far from uncontrevertailly true ………… you need more than “cause requires time because I say so” or “everything follows relativity because I say so”

Obviously if you just change the definition of cause in order to mean “something in time” you are just making a semantic trick that solves nothing
 

Pogo

Well-Known Member
History shows again and again that popular beliefs fall by the wayside when real science steps in.
This is actually correct with the understanding that the rest of what you posted is one of the mistaken popular beliefs, for real science:
Then go back and start here to correct some of your other mistaken beliefs with real science.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Still a circular argument.
No it isn't. Perhaps you should look at so basic introduction to the subject? Variation means some individuals are better suited to the environment, and those traits that make it that way, spread though the population.

That's natural selection. Simple.
 

Pogo

Well-Known Member
Still a circular argument.

If I define an object circling a distant star as green cheese it will remain green cheese until such time as it is proven otherwise. You have assumed the conclusion based not on experiment but the interpretation of evidence in terms of your definitions. This is the nature of thought.
no, the difference is that you have no evidence for your green cheese hypothesis, it is not a definition. We have millions of documented examples of the theory of selection natural and otherwise such as;
250px-Seneca_White_Deer_On_Army_Depot_Grounds_1.JPG


or

Genome study reveals 30 years of Darwin’s finch evolution

Not to mention High School antibiotic resistance experiments.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
So it boils down to semantics…………….. ok if in your own personal mind causation means “something with space time”………..then tell me what other word should I use? All I am saying is that “something” supernatural is responsible for the existence for the natural world ……….usually “cause” is an appropriate term, but feel free to invent and share your own personal word to substitute “cause”
As I keep saying, we can talk about reasons for existence without the temporal baggage of causation, but reasons for existence is equally applicable to anything 'supernatural' you dream up.

Ok you are not being asked to expalin why physical reality excists, you are jsut ebing asked to provide an alternative that is better than mine
"I don't know" is far better, because your 'cause' is incoherent and if you switch to 'reason', I can ask the same for your proposed 'supernatural' answer, so is worse than useless. It leaves us for more to explain than we started with.

The only alternatives I can think off are

1 the physical world came from nothing

2 the physical world has always existed (for an infinite amount of time)

3 something else that I haven’t thought off
:facepalm: Back to the Newtonian mindset - you don't even seem to realise you're doing it. The space-time can be finite in the past and still always exist - exist at every point in time. The manifold contains time, it does not 'experience' time. It did not start to exist, even if it's finite in the past.

If you can't understand that, then you haven't grasped 20th century physics (relativity).

Entanglement (if real) gives you cause and effect without time in between………….this strongly challenges your view that you need time in order to have cause and effect.
No, it doesn't. In fact, quantum field theory is formulated on the background of special relativity. The popular descriptions of entanglement don't really reflect the actual mathematics. They often say something like "a measurement at some point A, instantly affects some point B", but that's not really right. For one thing, the mathematics doesn't care whether the measurement at A happened before B or after. It makes not difference. If the measurements are far enough apart that light couldn't travel between them (which is where the weirdness comes in), you can always find a frame of reference in which A happened before B, another in which B happened before A, and yet another in which they were simultaneous.

I'll never actually forget the first time I looked at a formula for entanglement with enough background to understand it. Talk about lightbulbs coming on! There's nothing quite like that sort of understanding...

Numbers (if real) would not be physical objects that are not restricted by relativity...
Numbers are abstract ideas.

My point is that unless you can show beyond reasonable doubt that none of these are real ………..your claims about time and relativity are far from uncontrevertailly true ………… you need more than “cause requires time because I say so” or “everything follows relativity because I say so”
If you remove time, then you can't sensibly talk about causation, for all the reasons I have stated.

Obviously if you just change the definition of cause in order to mean “something in time” you are just making a semantic trick that solves nothing
The temporal meaning is, as far as I know, the clearly defined use. I can see no meaning without time. You even need time to have a concept of being simultaneous.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Missed a couple of things:

Entanglement (if real)...
It's real. Multiple experiments demonstrate it is, and it's the basis for quantum cryptography, which has been demonstrated
.
Singularities (if real) do not follow the laws of relativity ……….challenging your view that everything is restricted by relativity
As I said before, they're unlikely to be real, but I'm not actually sure what point you're trying to make. They are a prediction of relativity. Mathematically, they behave as boundaries to space-time.

This 'universe' and any obvious extrapolation into a multiverse are restricted by relativity (according to our best tested theory). I don't claim that all of reality has to be, but if you ditch space-time, then causality goes too.
 

Whateverist

Active Member
A believer considers miracles to be the result of a display of knowledge and power on the part of a conscious person.
An atheist believes that things that exist came out of nothing in a miraculous way, obeying some natural laws that emerged out of nowhere, by themselves.

So who is the one who believes in miracles?

Clearly it is the believer who is engaging in miraculous thinking who thinks everything became as it has as the output of an engineering god whose nature they describe as being like that of a person. No person I ever met could bring anything into existence de novo.

I don't know any atheists who believe that a singularity pooped out the cosmic constant, the laws of nature discoverable by science along with all the stuff (living and otherwise) in the universe. "God" is fine as a way of admitting we don't know why there is anything all in the world or our experience instead of nothing. But to then roll out a mechanistic vision of how such a god operates is a bit absurd.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
It's already been pointed out to you that simultaneous means occurring at the same point in time, which is incoherent (self-contradictory) if one is positing a timeless reality.
What simultaneous causation (if real) shows is that you don’t need “time” between the cause and the effect………..refuting a previous argument .

Besides I don’t see any contradiction nor incoherence in an timeless entity causing the universe at time = 0 (t=0)

But it's also the case that cause must precede effect. It's implied in the meanings of the two words.: "Cause and effect is the relationship between two events or situations, where one of the two is the cause of the other. The cause is the initiating event or situation, and the effect is the result of the cause."
The definition doesn’t excludes the possibility of cause and effect being simultaneous, therefore the cause is not necessarily prior to the effect, or at best it´s a controversial claim that requires more than “it is true because I say so”
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Missed a couple of things:


It's real. Multiple experiments demonstrate it is, and it's the basis for quantum cryptography, which has been demonstrated
.

As I said before, they're unlikely to be real, but I'm not actually sure what point you're trying to make. They are a prediction of relativity. Mathematically, they behave as boundaries to space-time.

This 'universe' and any obvious extrapolation into a multiverse are restricted by relativity (according to our best tested theory). I don't claim that all of reality has to be, but if you ditch space-time, then causality goes too.

I don't claim that all of reality has to
ok my mistake I made a strawman,

be, but if you ditch space-time, then causality goes too.
Why? And why are you so sure?

From Wikipedia
Causality is an influence by which one event, process, state, or object (a cause) contributes to the production of another event, process, state, or object (an effect) where the cause is partly responsible for the effect, and the effect is partly dependent on the cause. In general, a process has many causes,[1] which are also said to be causal factors for it, and all lie in its past. An effect can in turn be a cause of, or causal factor for, many other effects, which all lie in its future. Some writers have held that causality is metaphysically prior to notions of time and space

Why are these authors wrong? Why do you claim with such a degree of certanity somethign that is at best controversial among scholars?

The claim that causality requires time is far from obviously true, you need more than “it is true because I say so”
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Besides I don’t see any contradiction nor incoherence in an timeless entity causing the universe at time = 0 (t=0)
You still don't seem to get that the universe, in the sense of the whole space-time manifold, is timeless too. Saying "t=0", if it means anything, is simply a coordinate, a position within the manifold. Like the North Pole is a position on the surface of the Earth. If you were talking about the existence of the Earth, would you think the North Pole significant in some way?
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
You still don't seem to get that the universe, in the sense of the whole space-time manifold, is timeless too. Saying "t=0", if it means anything, is simply a coordinate, a position within the manifold. Like the North Pole is a position on the surface of the Earth. If you were talking about the existence of the Earth, would you think the North Pole significant in some way?
ok change t=0 for "the first moment of time"......why is it meanigless?
 
Last edited:
Yes, they do, but each mutation affects only cell it occurs in if that. The organism doesn't change unless the mutation causes a malignancy, in which case a cancer will begin to grow. Otherwise, it has no discernible effect on the organism even if it causes that single cell to die. The mutated DNA in that cell must become part of the instruction set in every cell of another organism to affect it phenotype (structure and function), and that means that that cell must be a gamete (spermatozoan or oocyte).

Yes, but it's not the same evolution as that which occurs across populations over generations. In the broadest sense, evolution just means change, and we all evolve from zygotes to infants to adults unless death occurs prematurely. Growth and development are biological changes in an individual. Learning is psychological evolution in an individual. The equivalent of populations evolving psychologically over generations is cultural evolution, as with the evolution of languages or religions.

Yes, it does. That's the mechanism. Offspring vary from their parents, and nature plays favorites among them, choosing those best able to reproduce. Over geological time, fish ancestors have produced ape descendants in multiple small steps.

Yes. You probably mean genetic diseases like cystic fibrosis and Huntington's chorea, but also infectious diseases like HIV can be passed from mother to fetus. And then there's the ones passed culturally, as when victims of parental abuse become abusers of their children themselves.

It's not an argument. It's a definition of an observation. The organism selected by nature are called selected and the process is called natural selection. The argument is that evidence compelling suggests that this combined with genetic variation across generations leads to the tree of life that we see today evolving (Darwinian sense: descent with change) from a single unicellular aquatic ancestral population.

You: "I avoid all belief."
Me: "Except the belief that you avoid all belief, right?"
You: "No. I believe this is a fact."

That's incorrect. What you are saying is that you can't properly interpret the evidence that millions of others find compelling.

It's already been pointed out to you that simultaneous means occurring at the same point in time, which is incoherent (self-contradictory) if one is positing a timeless reality.

But it's also the case that cause must precede effect. It's implied in the meanings of the two words.: "Cause and effect is the relationship between two events or situations, where one of the two is the cause of the other. The cause is the initiating event or situation, and the effect is the result of the cause."

I don't know about you, but I stop thinking and talking about the supernatural. The word was coined to justify belief in the nonexistent and explain why we can't find them. It basically means that the believer can claim that none of the rules of reason apply to these putative creatures and spaces.

The atheist justifiably rejects all religions and god claims that can't be demonstrated correct, which is all of them. He doesn't need them disconfirmed, although some have been.

Are you a Christian creationist? If so, are you aware that the world was not made in six days and that there were no first humans? It's been "proven." The scientifically literate are aware of that, and it is on that basis that they reject contradictory mythologies.

I also reject Christianity based in its moral code, which is inadequate and dated by humanist standards. How reliable (your word) should I consider a moral source that calls atheists and LGBTQ+ abominations giving no better reason than that they allegedly offend their creator which, despite being all-powerful and all-loving, can't stand to be with the kinds of people we all interact with every day and often love? That's also a moral defect in my book and is not as fine a love as human love, which can tolerate imperfections in others and even love such people.

It's sad that some theists can't understand atheists when they explain themselves. Here's where we stand: we don't believe in gods. One can add modifiers according to the individual (explicit vs implicit, gnostic vs agnostic, apatheist, ignostic).

In my case, I'm an agnostic atheist who explicitly denies a god belief, and also an apatheist for noninterventionist gods (gods that don't affect reality today such as the deist god) as well as an ignostic: "Ignosticism or igtheism is the idea that the question of the existence of God is meaningless because the word "God" has no coherent and unambiguous definition."

Neither does supernatural. Neither does existing outside of time, as existence is defined in part by occupying a series of consecutive instants.

That's not a problem for the atheist. Creationists don't take biologists seriously. Anti-vaxxers don't take infectious disease experts seriously. Climate deniers don't take climate scientists seriously. And flat earthers don't take geoscientists seriously. Yet the world goes on.

I tried that, but they looked the same in the manufacturing facility as they did in the pharmacy.

Which myth do you mean? The creation story? The flood story? The Exodus story? The virgin birth and resurrection stories? Feel free to Google any of these to discover the evidence against each yourself. I've already seen it and am not inclined to go fetch it for somebody unprepared to benefit from it. There's no burden of proof unless is making an existential claim that he wants believed to somebody willing and able to critically evaluate an argument for soundness and be convinced by a compelling one. If you can't do that, you can't be taught. Once a believer has been fitted with a faith-based confirmation bias, he can't do that. He sees only what his beliefs allow him to see.
very well, so I was told to adhere to the rules therefore would not debate but instead say this;
Never did I confirm or deny the world was created in literally six days, I just made a specific statement which I repeat, the Bible is a library of books with different literary writing styles. It would be unethical of me to treat all writing styles the same. I wouldn't treat a scientific article as a historical article and that's what most people do. portions of the Bible are poetry, others are historic, others are spiritual, and so on. Don't take my word for it for I am a knowledge seeker. Do your diligent studies on them using the right method of approach and follow where the evidence points. Thanks For your patience with me.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So it boils down to semantics
I described to you yesterday what that word means. Yes, definitions are semantics. Semantics is a branch in linguistics. So what is your actual complaint? What are you implying is being done that you disapprove of?

"It's semantics" reminds of the complaint "It was taken out of context." Yes, meaning are semantics, and citations are language extracted from the other words that come before and after them. If one cites any of the Ten Commandments by themselves, he is taking it out of the context of the full set. A person who makes such a claim also needs to explain why that matters, and I think you should as well rather than just saying "That's semantics."
What simultaneous causation (if real) shows is that you don’t need “time” between the cause and the effect………..refuting a previous argument.
But you're not showing or refuting anything. You're simply defining simultaneous.
The definition doesn’t exclude the possibility of cause and effect being simultaneous, therefore the cause is not necessarily prior to the effect, or at best it´s a controversial claim that requires more than “it is true because I say so”
That's exactly what you're doing. You're saying that cause and effect can be simultaneous because you say so, but that's incoherent for the reason I gave you. If cause didn't precede effect, there'd be no basis for calling one the cause and the other the effect or even to believe that either affected the other.

You were referring to quantum entanglement earlier as an example of simultaneous causation. Presumably, you mean that when an observer observes a quantum particle in one place and collapses the quantum wave function there, that causes the other particle with which it is entangled to collapse in a predictable way at the same time however distant it may be.

It sounds like you are saying that the collapse of one particle collapses the other instantaneously. That's not my understanding, or at least not an assumption one can justifiably make. I understand that as the single observation preceded and caused both collapses. The spooky part is how that observation has its effect on a distant unobserved particle so quickly. These particles can be a light year apart, but that single observation causes both effects simultaneously.
it's certainly true that there is no evidence to support the notion that species change gradually as a result of survival of the fittest.
That's incorrect. You have either not seen the evidence or haven't understood its implications.
Yet this "compelling evidence" is based on the assumption that the fit are more likely to survive.
As explained, "survival of the fittest" is language representing an observable process (a name for it). That phenomenon is that there are differential reproductive rates among organisms, and this has been named survival of the fittest. The term can be applied to competing businesses, where fitness means the ability to stay in business. It's simply a few words that stand for that observable phenomenon - in competition, some prevail and some fail.
Without ever defining a single characteristic of a single individual who ever lived its fitness is simply assumed to be correlated to the amount of its genes in the pool
The number of genes isn't a factor. This creature is apparently fit enough to not have gone extinct: "How small can a genome get and still run a living organism? Researchers now say that a symbiotic bacterium called Carsonella ruddii, which lives off sap-feeding insects, has taken the record for smallest genome with just 159,662 'letters' (or base pairs) of DNA and 182 protein-coding genes."
History shows again and again that popular beliefs fall by the wayside when real science steps in.
The theory of evolution is overwhelmingly likely here to stay for good. The evidence for it too robust, and the evidence against it nonexistent. We can accurately describe it as correct beyond reasonable doubt. The creationists also doubt the theory, but their objections aren't reasonable.
Just as you earlier defined religion as superstition and science as reason you now define change in species as survival of the fittest based not on empirical data nor experiment but on definition and observation.
None of those are correct definitions in my estimation, but yes, I do have a vocabulary of words with meanings that represent the objects, processes, relationships, and other qualities I encounter. These correlate with parts of speech (nouns, verbs, prepositions, and adjectives).
This isn't science. It could become science by merely demonstrating an ability to predict which individuals will survive leading to a gradual change.
We don't know how to do that. Nature does the testing or us and we see after the fact who the winners and losers have been. The extinct forms were the losers.
All homo omniscience see what we believe and experience reality only in terms of our beliefs.
I already rebutted that. Yes, language, prior experience, and a belief set derived from it shape thinking, but there are people who can actually look at something, realize they were wrong, and change their minds accordingly, and I'm pretty sure that you are one of them. Have you ever been surprised by seeing your car wasn't where you thought you left it or did you see a car there anyway because you had believed you would?

Maybe if you painted with a less broad brush.
I believe all belief is superstition hence I try to avoid beliefs in my models.
You can't.
The only true knowledge is experiential knowledge anyway so who needs abstractions and inductive logic.
We need abstractions to reason and to communicate with language. Words are abstractions.


And experience generates inductions in a mind capable of that.
none of the things that describe life or how it changes has even yet been defined.
That's obviously incorrect on the face of it. Or maybe you didn't mean what this says and are merely being hyperbolical.
Still a circular argument.
He wrote, "That's what 'fitness' means in evolution." Are you not able to tell the difference between a definition, a claim, and an argument? Those words aren't an argument. They're a claim and a definition if one specifies what the pronoun "that" means (the definition of "fitness").

Do you know the words definiendum and definiens?. They refer to a dictionary entry, the definiendum being the word defined and the definiens being the definition that follows. Both are abstractions.
I was told to adhere to the rules therefore would not debate
You can debate in this thread.
Never did I confirm or deny the world was created in literally six days
No, Genesis make that claim and sciencr has disconfirmed it.
I wouldn't treat a scientific article as a historical article and that's what most people do.
I treat all claims of fact the same way. I critically assess the claims using the same rules of evidence and inference.
 
Last edited:

cladking

Well-Known Member
No it isn't. Perhaps you should look at so basic introduction to the subject? Variation means some individuals are better suited to the environment, and those traits that make it that way, spread though the population.

That's natural selection. Simple.

Of course some are more suitable but in point of fact it is irrelevant because individuals can adapt. Individuals have consciousness, not rabbits, and not some rabbits. Rabbits by definition have consciousness but no rabbit is by definition more fit than another. Until such time as this is established experimentally or gradual change in species is actually observed then all you have is an hypothesis. Defining survivors as being more fit is simple nonsense. It would be as self evidently false if I maintained they were more conscious or if I postulated they were less rabbit.

Experiment always suggests the survivors that lead to change in species ACTUALLY ARE less like the rest of their species than those which die. Remember the upside down flies? Where is your evidence for gradual change caused by fitness? Where is YOUR experiment? You want to extrapolate the effect of mass murder in the lab with minimally conscious microbes to to apply to all life including those with brains and complex behavior. You have no experiment to underpin your beliefs. Observation and experiment argue against your position.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
That's exactly what you're doing. You're saying that cause and effect can be simultaneous because you say so, but that's incoherent for the reason I gave you.

NO!!!! I didn't say that. I said cause always precedes effect but EVERYTHING is both a cause and effect. Everything in existence, every particle, every consciousness, every event affects everything in reality and will for all time going forward.

The butterfly that flaps its wing in China today will cause a Hurricane in Haiti in two weeks but the butterfly that flapped its wings in China 40,000 years ago has a profound effect on the human race and current events. The world is far different because chaos increases going forward. People don't want to consider every experiment so they pick and choose the ones that support their beliefs. Just as all reality is composed of all reality we must understand all experiment to see reality.

You keep assuming I'm confused and stupid and then parsing my sentences accordingly. Try to only assume I might be wrong and parse them that way.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
The theory of evolution is overwhelmingly likely here to stay for good. The evidence for it too robust, and the evidence against it nonexistent. We can accurately describe it as correct beyond reasonable doubt. The creationists also doubt the theory, but their objections aren't reasonable.

You've already defined all religious beliefs as "superstition" remember? Of course there can be no legitimate arguments from superstition. You've defined scientific arguments as reasonable so of course state of the art is most likely to reflect reality. Therefore there are an infinite numbers of pyramids built with an infinite number of ramps through simple substitution. Pure logic defeats you.

You should try this substitution to see the vast nonsense it generates.

Just because "Evolution" could be correct and seems to reflect most current knowledge simply doesn't change the fact it could be most sincerely wrong. There are numerous ways it could be wrong and still seem to explain the evidence. Experiment suggests it is wrong while no experiment shows a gradual change caused by fitness. Hence I believe it is wrong.

Meanwhile a scientific attempt to interpret the Bible is nonsensical. Translating stuff that is by definition superstition is as foolish as linguists' attempts to translate incantation. If you don't know what the bible means then how you can comment on its wrongness or the meaning of the authors?

Their objections are wholly and absolutely reasonable within the framework of their metaphysic. Yours are not because they go far afield and far beyond your metaphysics. This isn't to say they are right and you are wrong merely that your methodology is wrong and theirs might be right.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
None of those are correct definitions in my estimation, but yes, I do have a vocabulary of words with meanings that represent the objects, processes, relationships, and other qualities I encounter.

You don't get to define any word. You can use any definition you choose and then expect people to parse it that way but the meaning of no word is fixed and assigning definitions as you did reflects ONLY your belief.

"Superstition" still means; "2 : a notion maintained despite evidence to the contrary" and this still applies to scientific beliefs too. This is the definition many people intend when they use the word. Indeed, most people are not saying that all religious beliefs are superstitions when they use the word. Most people are usually referring to ideas like ghosts and goblins. I personally believe all certainty of any type underlies superstition. But then like with everything, I might be wrong and everything I believe might apply only some of the time even when I'm right.

The world is not a clockwork and is chaotic. Everything is most highly complex and our feeble science despite being the only tool in town is reductionistic and dependent on experiment. Every new discovery is greeted with a chorus of "At last we know everything" and we forget that science is continually being revolutionized. Like reality and species and all individuals it changes suddenly in fits and starts. Time don't fly, it bounds and leaps. Everything we know will be wholly rewritten in a century or two. Only by maintaining the status quo can this be avoided but the status quo leads to extinction.

You do realize that there are some really good unabridged dictionaries out there. There are many many definitions for "superstition" and they are each legitimate. There are an infinite number of interpretations for every one of those definitions. Indeed, we each create our own definition every time we use any word. Using definitions that make us holier than thou is semantics. Nobody has ever become a saint or holy by just using words. Everybody talks and no one listens. Semantics obscure communication and never facilitates it.
 
Top