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Atheists believe in miracles more than believers

Pogo

Well-Known Member
Interestingly, the Bible has an account of this at 1 Corinthians chapter 15. I quote some passages pertinent to this discussion: "35But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36You fool! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37And what you sow is not the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or something else. 38But God gives it a body as He has designed, and to each kind of seed He gives its own body."
So verse 36 brings out that seeds die but God gives a body. Similar to a resurrection. We all face death now as humans, but that will not always be the case, according to what the Bible says. And I believe it.
You fool, seeds aren't dead, at least the ones that actually germinate, they are the combination of two gametes that are just waiting for the right conditions. just as sexual reproduction in humans.
Skipped the birds and bees did you?
 

Pogo

Well-Known Member
You're right. Virtually everything in existence living, dead, or never really alive changes suddenly. One day a carefree young man finds he's going to have a baby and soon enough he has a family, more mouths to feed and progeny. Before he knows it he's a granpa ALL OF A SUDDEN.

This is the nature of reality itself but most especially the nature of life. We should think of life as reality on steroids. Of course it is robust and undergoes sudden changes before it suddenly dies but just like everything in reality life is individual. There's no such thing as "rabbits" but ONLY individuals most of whom closely fit the characteristics we (homo omniscience) call "rabbits". Planets aren't made of green cheese and rabbits don't miraculously spring into existence because somebody invented the word.

This is not complicated.
No your story is not complicated, but it also has nothing to do with biological evolution except that there is reproduction in it.
 

Pogo

Well-Known Member
Darwin separated consciousness from life. He separated the individual from consciousness and vice versa. This is improper methodology and it's still going on and still improper.

Life is consciousness. It is not species. If species weren't an abstraction it still wouldn't be conscious. It still wouldn't evolve. Species don't evolve at all. Rather the individual consciousness we call "species" suddenly changes just like every single individual who ever lived of any species at all.
You are just making up your own meanings for words, since nobody else is you, this has become unintelligible.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Darwin separated consciousness from life. He separated the individual from consciousness and vice versa. This is improper methodology and it's still going on and still improper.

Life is consciousness. It is not species. If species weren't an abstraction it still wouldn't be conscious. It still wouldn't evolve. Species don't evolve at all. Rather the individual consciousness we call "species" suddenly changes just like every single individual who ever lived of any species at all.
The variation that nature selects from is mostly physical.
 

Pogo

Well-Known Member
I understand but do not see verification (ok, can't use the word proof, so I'll use verification instead) in reality as it was happening or even happens now) of those categories (clades). There is the THEORY of the supposed mechanisms driving evolution, but I see no verification in actual events showing that some type of fish (unknown, of course) evolving and eventually becoming humans. I see conjectures and postulates of those that embrace the theory. Now it might seem logical, but in actuality, there is nothing beyond scientists figuring that's how it probably happened.
It happened over the last 400 million years ago, we have a great deal more detail than anything you have ever offered, complaining we don't have a movie is just disingenuous.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
But epigenetics is pseudo Lamarckian and professors emeritus in their dotage think we need a new paradigm because somebody said science marches on funerals and so there is a controversy and so my creationist website bs has to be given equal credence even though I have no clue even what the words mean let alone the concepts or math.

sorry @gnostic if this is a bit hard to parse,

Sorry pogo. I thought I was addressing @leroy.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
ok change t=0 for "the first moment of time"......why is it meanigless?
It's not meaningless, but it doesn't have the significance you seem to think it does because you are still stuck in Newtonian thinking. Space-time in general relativity is just a four-dimensional geometric object. The geometry in time-like directions is different in detail, but not in the fact that they are only directions through the manifold, cf. lines of longitude on the surface of the earth.

As I said, if you were interested in why the Earth's surface exists, you wouldn't be puzzling about the North Pole.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Of course some are more suitable but in point of fact it is irrelevant because individuals can adapt.
To a limited extent. That cannot overcome a basic genetic variation. An individual cannot, for example, change its colouring so as to be better camouflaged.

Individuals have consciousness, not rabbits, and not some rabbits. Rabbits by definition have consciousness...
What!? Trying to redefine words again?

...but no rabbit is by definition more fit than another
Nonsense.

Until such time as this is established experimentally or gradual change in species is actually observed
It has been observed, and experiments have been done. You can also simulate natural selection on a computer and use it as a design methodology.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Its metaphysics? Please explain.

I've defined this word for you several times and won't do it again.

For anyone else who might not know "scientific metaphysics" is the axioms, definitions, results (experiments), and methodology of science. Science doesn't exist outside metaphysics and those who believe it does believe in miracles. Anyone who thinks expertise allows one to see reality and that state of the art is reality believes in miracles. No peer has ever or will ever have the final word. Science is not dependent on genius or consensus but only experiment.

Nothing in science is writ in stone and even its metaphysics might be rewritten and the new science thereby generated will only be true within this new metaphysic. We can extrapolate what is know to apply to all of reality and we each do but these extrapolations are not science; they are models, opinions, and beliefs. They are the manifestation of pattern recognition in homo omnisciencis. We each see a different reality because our models and beliefs are different but this is hard to see because the very language we use to construct and communicate these models is ephemeral and indistinct. We can hardly imagine a different way to see reality from the same beliefs or that language we use to look at other models is imprecise and its interpretation is wholly dependent on the beliefs of the listener.

We each reason in circles so shared beliefs will always result in the same conclusions. That these conclusion are not identical in each observer is irrelevant, each will be wrong anyway. With no experiment to underpin "Evolution" it is no more than an hypothesis or a belief system. Believers look at life and see "Evolution" instead of the reality. Everything we believe fills the center of our eyes whether we are right or wrong and this is what we see rather than what is actually there. I never believed in Evolution so I never saw it and I didn't believe in it because I never believed in the assumptions. I never believed in only humans being conscious and intelligent. I never believed anything could be studied outside metaphysics which in this case would necessarily include a definition for "life", "consciousness" and "species". Even AFTER such things are eventually defined we will still need experiment to show how life changes suddenly especially when populations approach zero.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
With no experiment to underpin "Evolution" it is no more than an hypothesis or a belief system.
There have been multiple experiments that do demonstrate evolution, as you've been told before. And it is simply untrue that science and evidence is only based in experiments, anyway.

It is one of the best supported theories in all of science.

I never believed in Evolution so I never saw it and I didn't believe in it because I never believed in the assumptions.
1lsitz.jpg


I never believed in only humans being conscious and intelligent.
What's that got to do with it?
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
To a limited extent. That cannot overcome a basic genetic variation. An individual cannot, for example, change its colouring so as to be better camouflaged.

As I've said before species can make minor adaptation to changing environments very quickly. Changing color is a magic trick that nature can do virtually overnight especially in short lived creatures. As individuals of the wrong color disappear to predation even the survivors become less likely to reproduce due to difficulty in finding mates. No matter the causes this is seen frequently in general and local populations.

While all species change suddenly this occurs within a single lifetime of human observers in things like peppered moths.

What!? Trying to redefine words again?

Do you really believe humans or rabbits have a group consciousness? Perhaps this is a universal consciousness that we all share?

I get challenged if I say the sky is blue and ironically I might be the only one here that doesn't even believe the sky is blue!!!

You can also simulate natural selection on a computer and use it as a design methodology.

[sigh] GIGO. [/sigh]

You can model airplane wing designs on a computer and test them because every variable is known and quantifiable. It is impossible to model a fox catching a rabbit on a computer. Even if you could it is impossible to model the characteristics of the fox and rabbit that led to the event. It is impossible to model the specific conditions and the wingbeat of every butterfly in China since butterflies arose from the primeval ooze.

We can't even model the complexity of the equations we'd have to invent much less quantify the variables. Even if we could all that would be generated are the odds as they change over time right up to the time the rabbit died.

We don't really know everything we just think we do.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
And it is simply untrue that science and evidence is only based in experiments, anyway.

I didn't say, never said, and never will say evidence is based only on experiment. There's vast amount of evidence some of which supports your beliefs and some of which is anomalous. You preferentially see that which does.

Evidence is extremely valuable to invent hypothesis and this is how I generate all of mine; right or wrong.

But ALL evidence is ALWAYS interpreted in terms of theory and ALL theory is ALWAYS only the result of experiment.

The "theory" of Evolution is built on several erroneous assumptions and has no experimental underpinning. I believe it is wrong.


How we interpret evidence, what any evidence means, is always determined by the existing paradigm. When the paradigm is wrong (and it always is) the evidence is being misinterpreted. Since most experiment flows naturally from hypothesis this will usually result in the inability to devise experiment and observation to support the paradigm. Obviously where the evidence is misinterpreted it will result in stagnation and lack of progress. This too can be difficult to see when technology is improving in leaps and bounds due to other trends related principally to new materials, new understandings, and new instrumentation. These things are not founded in theory.
 

Whateverist

Active Member
Darwin separated consciousness from life. He separated the individual from consciousness and vice versa. This is improper methodology and it's still going on and still improper.

Is that so? I'm no expert on Darwin but what is your basis for that statement?

I find myself agreeing with most of what you've written but if Darwin ever thought about consciousness at all let alone as separate from life that is simply news to me.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I understand but do not see verification (ok, can't use the word proof, so I'll use verification instead) in reality as it was happening or even happens now) of those categories (clades). There is the THEORY of the supposed mechanisms driving evolution, but I see no verification in actual events showing that some type of fish (unknown, of course) evolving and eventually becoming humans. I see conjectures and postulates of those that embrace the theory. Now it might seem logical, but in actuality, there is nothing beyond scientists figuring that's how it probably happened.
Have you reviewed the fossil evidence? Do you think the experts who have studied this for decades are just making it all up? Science, unlike the mythology you embrace, is based on observable, tested facts.

Conjecture may inspire a course of research, but any conclusions therefrom must be based on empirical facts.
Yours true, judging by your posts over the years, you don't really grasp how science works, how to judge the soundness of propositions, or the basic claims and mechanisms of the the theory of evolution.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member

Evolution sparks silence of the crickets

"Populations of a male cricket on different Hawaiian islands have lost their ability to chirp as a result of separate, but simultaneous, evolutionary adaptations to their wings. The changes, which allow the insects to avoid attracting a parasitic fly, occurred independently over just 20 generations and are visible to the human eye, a study reveals."

Have to bookmark this one for future, Visible evolution of physical bodies that changes environmental fitness and DNA evidence to match and further changes to the population to study due to these changes and has been watched in less than 1 human life-time though many generations of crickets and yes they are still crickets, but we never said they wouldn't be. Worth a read.
Of course. the equilibrium of evolution is punctuated by occasional rapid changes. The cause in this case seems pretty clear.
So what? I don't see what you're contending.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There is nothing beyond conjectural reasoning to show that (some, or a few) fish changed microscopically over eons of time to become humans.
You forgot science. It demonstrates beyond reasonable doubt that fish ancestors had reptilian, avian, and mammalian descendants.
So where's the scientific method showing how fish evolved eventually to be humans.
That information is unavailable to you. You've been unable to learn it.
I understand but do not see verification
And you never will. That's what a faith-based confirmation bias does.

I'll leave a link for anybody interested to an excellent description of that from a YEC who went to university, became a geologist, and became an OEC. Somehow, his experience at university pierced through and he finally saw what he had never seen before. He describes it using the literary device of a demon that chose what ideas he would be allowed to see and which didn't get in. I find him sincere and compelling. Unfortunately, I see you as being where he was and unable to break through as he did. You will never understand the theory of evolution unless something changes in you like it did in the geologist (named Morton, hence Morton's demon):

The Talk.Origins Archive Post of the Month: February 2002

From the link: "Those who try to help the poor victims escape the ravages of Morton's demon wear themselves out typing e-mails explaining data and facts which never get through the demon's gate." We've seen that here.
NO!!!! I didn't say that. I said cause always precedes effect
Those words were written to Leroy. He's the one discussing simultaneity in cause-effect relationships.
You keep assuming I'm confused and stupid and then parsing my sentences accordingly.
Sorry if I've offended you. I don't consider you stupid, but I do find your thinking to be chaotic.
You've already defined all religious beliefs as "superstition" remember?
I posted a definition of superstition. It doesn't include all religious belief. Just the unfalsifiable ones, like gods and afterlives.
You don't get to define any word.
I do it frequently. So do others including you. This is how we get new words and new meanings for familiar words. All one need do when coining a new word or phrase is define it for others. For example, the words disbelief and unbelief are generally interchangeable (synonymous), but I assign them different meanings in my thoughts, but when I write or speak them, I need to define them if I wish to be understood. Unbelief is the lack of a belief in an idea without calling it wrong. Disbelief works for that.

I've also invented a pseudo-Yiddish word that only my wife and I use or understand. A shplock is somebody who is in the way, perhaps by occluding a doorway or driving too slowly and you can't pass.
Semantics obscure communication and never facilitates it.
The opposite is correct. Communication requires that words, symbols, and even meaningful gestures are assigned mutually agreed upon meanings, which is semantics.
Darwin separated consciousness from life. He separated the individual from consciousness and vice versa.
No, he didn't. He explained the origin diversity of life. I'm not aware that he ever referred to consciousness explicitly (I Googled "Darwin on consciousness" and got no answer).

Maybe you're thinking of religion and souls and separating from bodies to exist disembodied in an afterlife.
Just because "Evolution" could be correct and seems to reflect most current knowledge simply doesn't change the fact it could be most sincerely wrong.
It's possible. It's also highly unlikely. The only alternative to explain the evidence we have that robustly confirms that the theory is correct is a superhuman, deceptive, intelligent designer - say a race of superhuman extraterrestrials. That can't be ruled out, to consider it a serious alternative would be hold unreasonable doubt for the scientific theory.
There are numerous ways it could be wrong and still seem to explain the evidence.
Disagree. You might have included a few and your evidence for them if you think otherwise.
Experiment suggests it is wrong while no experiment shows a gradual change caused by fitness. Hence I believe it is wrong.
OK.
If you don't know what the bible means then how you can comment on its wrongness or the meaning of the authors?
But I do know what they mean if they're written in English.
"Superstition" still means; "2 : a notion maintained despite evidence to the contrary" and this still applies to scientific beliefs too.
Disagree again. But you have difficulty getting from relevant evidence to sound conclusions, meaning that you can't tell what science is valid and what is not. You haven't been able to conclude that Darwin was correct, and so his ideas are superstition to you, but not to me and millions of others.
The world is not a clockwork and is chaotic.
The universe appears to need no intelligent oversight to run day-to-day, not even anybody to wind the clockwork. And my world isn't chaotic. It's actually quite orderly and somewhat routine. Every morning begins with feeding the dogs followed by coffee with whipped cream with my wife (I always get up first) and every evening finishes on the terrace (enclosed with windows that open and screens) watching TV and sipping white wine as the sun goes down. In between, I play online bridge three mornings a week (T-Tu-Sa) and club bridge one morning (F) and one afternoon (T) a week. We have lunch or dinner out after club bridge, and Sunday mornings.
.my point is that it is far from “obviously true” that causes necessarily precede their effects
It is to me for reasons already given.
And wouldn’t that be an example of simultaneous causation?.
No. It looks like you didn't read it all, since you only quoted the first paragraph of my comment (italicized below). Here is the whole thing:

"You were referring to quantum entanglement earlier as an example of simultaneous causation. Presumably, you mean that when an observer observes a quantum particle in one place and collapses the quantum wave function there, that causes the other particle with which it is entangled to collapse in a predictable way at the same time however distant it may be.

It sounds like you are saying that the collapse of one particle collapses the other instantaneously. That's not my understanding, or at least not an assumption one can justifiably make. I understand that as the single observation preceded and caused both collapses. The spooky part is how that observation has its effect on a distant unobserved particle so quickly. These particles can be a light year apart, but that single observation causes both effects simultaneously."
Imagine a heavy ball resting on a soft couch causing a curvature.
Cause: the ball
Effect: the curvature
We know that balls cause curvatures in couches we know that curvatures don’t cause balls. …….. it seems to me that this would still be obviously true even if the ball caused the curvature immediately.
OK, but that's not what happens. The ball applies force then the sofa recedes. And you know that, which is how you were able to correctly call one the cause and the other the effect.
 
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cladking

Well-Known Member
...but if Darwin ever thought about consciousness at all let alone as separate from life that is simply news to me.

By "separating it" I meant he did not include it or consider it in his "theory". Like most homo omnisciencis then and now he mistook thought for consciousness and ascribed the ability to think only to humans.
 
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