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Atheists believe in miracles more than believers

John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
Here in Mexico it's called Azteca soup, has more crispy tortilla strips, no cheese topping or just unmelted cheese sprinkles, and is lighter and less viscous. Maybe it's not the same soup, but I'd say it is. You called it taco soup, but the other name for Azteca soup is tortilla soup [sopa de tortilla]:


Mine is my take on an American take of Mexican food (Aussie-Tex-Mex) so probably bears no resemblance to actual Mexican food, I believe it's called taco soup because it's thickened with the corn meal flour they use to make tacos or maybe because it has taco seasoning.

I'm trying to find an authentic recipe for Aztec soup to give it a try but can only find American or European versions.
 

John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
I do believe it is a fact that we (including all of the human race) distinctly and by distinctly I mean absolutely without doubt on a physical level do not know how the first cell that supposedly began to burgeon out came to be.

It might very well be me but I have no idea what it is you are trying to communicate.
 

Pogo

Well-Known Member
My justification is That unlike the universe God didn’t begin to exist………..even if my justification is wrong it is still not special pleading
It is not the lack of ability to demonstrate the justification specifically in this case but the more general claim that everything must have a cause except your god which you claim is the exception. that you cannot demonstrate the existence of this exception only compounds the problem with your claim to its exceptionality.
.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
This is the type of semantics games that make conversations long , tedious and boring……. We simply mean different things when we say mechanism
This is a consequence of using imprecise language. You should be clear about what you mean, and if you can't be, you should expect miscommunication to occur.

It's that aspect of your use of language that makes these discussions long, tedious, and unproductive. Also, ignoring points made to you. You and I have discussed this before, and I offered you some solutions, but you never commented on them or adopted any of them.

Do you remember this: "I showed you how my wife and her girlfriend write to one another. Each values acknowledging the other's comments, and that is how they make sure to not overlook one in a reply. It was offered to you as a suggested way to not overlook significant comments and questions in posts written to you. " (source).

Probably not. Ironically, you never commented on it, and that is a big reason these discussions are just spinning wheels. So much passes you by because you aren't trying to be efficient. Expect your future to resemble your past if you don't change something there.
1 Yes, organism evolve by genetic variation + natural selection (what you label as mechanisms)

2 There are many mechanisms that can produce genetic variation , perhaps including mechanisms that are yet to be discovered ………. We have random mutations, epigenetics, natural genetic engineering, transposons etc. (these are all mechanisms that produce genetic variation)

3 we don’t know which of these mechanism (related to point 2) are responsible for the evolution of the eye nor the role that each mechanism had

None of these 3 points is controversial…………..If you don’t explicitly disagree with any of these 3 points I will assume that you agree
I don't have a problem with any of that except that we do understand the mechanism in the main.

Why do you not do the same for me and my arguments/claims?
Because the original objection was that I am making a special pleading fallacy………………..you then move to different objections without granting that I am not doing special pleading
Why would he grant that? He disagrees with you. So do I.
It is not SP because I am arguing that the universe/multiverse, has properties that God doesn’t have
That's special pleading right there. Why do those properties matter in this context? You never say. The only difference between a god and a multiverse is that the former is considered a conscious, volitional agent. That changes nothing in this discussion. Either can serve as a source for our universe. Either could have always existed, been caused by something prior (oh look! causality connected to temporality), or come into being uncaused (please forgive me, @ratiocinator; I understand your objection; maybe the third is incoherent).
 

gnostic

The Lost One
The reason I gave is that unlike the universe, God didn’t begin to exist, this is why I am treating God differently. Hence no special pleading
How do you know that God didn't begin to exist?
Irrelevant, even if I am wrong it is still not special pleading

Because the original objection was that I am making a special pleading fallacy………………..you then move to different objections without granting that I am not doing special pleading

It is not SP because I am arguing that the universe/multiverse, has properties that God doesn’t have ………… If I wrong then I am wrong, but it woudnt be SP

You say that, but you still believe that God is the Creator of everything - the universe, Earth, life - and you believe that God is outside of the universe, outside of time and space, not governed by time, etc, all without evidence to support these beliefs, other than your personal FAITH.

So the Special Pleading comes in, with this supernatural entity that you called God…that the universe has causality from the divine will.

Below is a perfect example of special pleading:

My justification is That unlike the universe God didn’t begin to exist………..even if my justification is wrong it is still not special pleading

your only justification is that of personal faith in your belief. You are trying to make God as an exception to everything else.
 
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Pogo

Well-Known Member
Mine is my take on an American take of Mexican food (Aussie-Tex-Mex) so probably bears no resemblance to actual Mexican food, I believe it's called taco soup because it's thickened with the corn meal flour they use to make tacos or maybe because it has taco seasoning.

I'm trying to find an authentic recipe for Aztec soup to give it a try but can only find American or European versions.
As I understand it, Mexican food has been so corrupted by outside influences that you won't find anything specifically Mexican, rather just many things using available ingredients prepared by people with some relationship to the general area. In short, if you use ingredients generally available and make soup, then it would qualify as somebody probably made it that way at some point.
Doing it well is up to you. Hardest to find seems to be Mexican Oregano which I have only found online, it is apparently significantly different but the rest of the basics are generally available in their modern form and if you want to go heirloom, good luck.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
It might very well be me but I have no idea what it is you are trying to communicate.
OK, thank you. I'll try again. Maybe I'm just not expressing myself well enough. So I'll try again. Let's see -- do you think scientists know how the first living cell came into existence? Maybe there are dead cells, I suppose there are. But do scientists really know how the first living cell that started the path of evolution came about? Did you understand that? :) Yes, I say this with a smile on my face.
 

Pogo

Well-Known Member
You say that, but you still believe that God is the Creator of everything - the universe, Earth, life - and you believe that God is outside of the universe, outside of time and space, not governed by time, etc, all without evidence to support these beliefs, other than your personal FAITH.

So the Special Pleading comes in, with this supernatural entity that you called God…that the universe has causality from the divine will.

Below is a perfect example of special pleading:



your only justification is that of personal faith in your belief. You are trying to make God as an exception to everything else.
It is fairly simple obviously, Special Pleading is understood with one exception and that is @leroy claiming his God concept did whatever.

Now if we would just accept that he is right, this whole problem would go away.
 

Dan From Smithville

For the World Is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky
Staff member
Premium Member
People talk right past one another all the time. We don't notice it when we speak to like minded individuals and barely notice it when we speak to those with whom we share little common ground. But we do a good job of parsing sentences only when we agree with one another. Much of the cause for it is that we each parse words according to our own individual beliefs And when one of these errors in parsing comes to light we accuse the speaker of using words incorrectly.
Sometimes speakers and writers do use words incorrectly. It is fair to recognize that. This seems more like an attempt to justify belief and place blame on the reader rather than use the best facts and respond constructively when the speaker/writer errors are pointed out.
Fixing the problem can be impossible with some individuals and they are best left to an "ignore list".
Is this a threat or a plea?
Of course there are conversational habits that also interfere with communication; some people refuse to listen even when it's in written form and they can take their time with it. When you're speaking instead of listening or trying to parse your words as intended, they are busily framing a counterargument to what they believe you are going to say or searching for key words to berate you with them ripped from context.
I find this the most ironic.

I have seen little or no evidence to indicate that when asked for examples, definitions, clarification, support for assertions, evidence and authoritative sources that you readily and happily comply at all. Quite the opposite. There are examples on this thread where you were asked for a list of Darwin's assumptions and an explanation for how they are all false. Nothing. You have been asked regularly to demonstrate that all change in all living things is sudden and explain examples where it is not. Nothing. You were recently asked to provide evidence by @blü 2 and you spent pages avoiding the request while claiming that you had posted evidence, but there is no evidence for that. I've seen this repeat numerous times with many different members asking for your evidence. These sorts of behaviors rob people of interest in discussing anything with you. Why you would want that I cannot say. Perhaps you really aren't interested in discussion and just want the claims you deliver like revealed truth to be believed without question.
I have far more in common with the atheists around here than with the theists, and was one for many years, but still most mistake me for a theist simply because I point out that science has become largely a belief system and as a belief system it is wholly unsupported by experiment.
I think the mistake results from the fact that what you present is best described as a belief system with claims delivered as revealed truth.
Theists are often making solid arguments to support their beliefs while believers in science aren't addressing those arguments.
I'd ask for examples and an explanation for why this is relevant in a discussion of biology or science, but I have zero expectation that I would receive a valid response if any.
Instead they are busily "correcting" the "errors" they believe exist in the theistic understanding of science.
The errors exist and need correcting. The understanding isn't theistic. I think you say that because most of your claims are rejected as unsubstantiated belief by an non-expert.
Granted, of course, that theists on average don't understand science as well as this specific group of atheists who are often mistaking their opinions and beliefs (as well as their models) for Revealed Truth).
Some of us theists understand the science.
We should all be asking for more elaboration and definitions.
More irony. You get requests for this more than any person on here I think. And ignore them routinely from the evidence of these threads.
I misunderstood the concept of each individual being the same species as its parents in post after post. I didn't ask for clarification even though I was parsing the sentence such that it was obvious nonsense.
It isn't nonsense. The nonsense is declaring it false without an validation. I get that you believe you know that every individual is a different species, how nonsensical and illogical that is. Revealed truth is not science.
This should always be a tip off that we misunderstand because everyone makes sense all the time.
No evidence to support that and much to call it a very poor and useless conclusion.
I still don't agree with the contention but now I understand it well enough to get the question right on the test.
You don't seem to agree based on what you want to believe and not on a knowledge and understanding of the subject.
Communication has been a precious gift since language became confused when homo sapiens became extinct and homo omnisciencis circularis rationatio arose.
Another example. You claim that Homo sapiens are extinct for thousands of years when the species was only described 250 years ago based on the existing species. It doesn't make sense to claim that we are extinct, when we are here now. Then you create your own taxonomy with a secret definition and use it as if it has some widely recognized meaning. What does that communicate? To me it communicates a lack of understanding and a flight of fantasy that has no value in science.
It is very rare. Unless both individuals can agree that "I know that you know that I know you know I know you know..." Ad infinitum, then communication is not perfect. It's hard for us to imagine that in other species including homo sapiens communication is and was like this. Our species simply take all things at face value because we can't exist otherwise. We take language at face value and we take the meaning of the other party's utterances at face value. We can't even exist unless we do this because we can't even sense the world around us without knowing everything there is to know and then reasoning in circles so we can't see how wrong we are.
More claims about Homo sapiens that are inconsistent with the evidence.
I'll try to take my own advice and ask for more clarification, but obviously like all of us I'll stumble blindly ahead trying to get my points across preferentially to understanding others. Like all of us I'll be sure I understand and disagree when I read something that is "wrong".
Based on this and other posts, I can't imagine how you intend to keep people interested in discussing anything with you. Your posting is closed to anything that you don't believe or didn't come up with no matter how farfetched it is.

I've lost interest and only responded to this, since you responded to me with this error-ridden post that seems like a giant rationalization for an argument based on your belief system and the value of your revealed truth.
 

John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
As I understand it, Mexican food has been so corrupted by outside influences that you won't find anything specifically Mexican, rather just many things using available ingredients prepared by people with some relationship to the general area. In short, if you use ingredients generally available and make soup, then it would qualify as somebody probably made it that way at some point.
Doing it well is up to you. Hardest to find seems to be Mexican Oregano which I have only found online, it is apparently significantly different but the rest of the basics are generally available in their modern form and if you want to go heirloom, good luck.

Nearly impossible to find a lot of Mexican ingredients in Australia other than paying exorbitant prices online.
 

John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
OK, thank you. I'll try again. Maybe I'm just not expressing myself well enough. So I'll try again. Let's see -- do you think scientists know how the first living cell came into existence? Maybe there are dead cells, I suppose there are. But do scientists really know how the first living cell that started the path of evolution came about? Did you understand that? :) Yes, I say this with a smile on my face.

If you're asking how did life first start why not type "how did life first start?"

If you're asking me how life first started them my answer as always is, I have no idea. However there are two main ideas, abiogenesis and by supernatural methods of various Gods. I don't understand abiogenesis and I have never seen evidence of a creator God.

If you're asking something else then I didn't understand you.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Fixing the problem can be impossible with some individuals and they are best left to an "ignore list".

Is this a threat or a plea?

I find it’s funny - in the irony-sense, not funny as in hilarious - that cladking blamed everyone for playing the semantic games, when that exactly what he has been doing all along, for years now.

I am already in his ignore list, and I’m fine with that…as I don’t have to go down his rabbit holes. I still reply his posts on occasion, just for other people’s benefits, so that they understand that there others’ views that countered his.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
If you're asking how did life first start why not type "how did life first start?
Because that is not what I am asking. I'm asking what you think about the first cell, living that is. It certainly can be-seems to be-connected with abiogenesis, but I'm not asking about abiogenesis.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
If you're asking how did life first start why not type "how did life first start?"

If you're asking me how life first started them my answer as always is, I have no idea. However there are two main ideas, abiogenesis and by supernatural methods of various Gods. I don't understand abiogenesis and I have never seen evidence of a creator God.

If you're asking something else then I didn't understand you.
Reviewing your post, John53, I often wonder how people think Moses knew that life began on this earth. For instance -- discerning life around us before there were instruments capable of detecting age in fossils and other elements, we see earth, soil, rocks, animals, vegetables, stars, etc, many might wonder how did it all get here? They might also think maybe green grass, etc., animals, were always here.
 

John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
Because that is not what I am asking. I'm asking what you think about the first cell, living that is. It certainly can be-seems to be-connected with abiogenesis, but I'm not asking about abiogenesis.

What is a first cell?
 

John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
Reviewing your post, John53, I often wonder how people think Moses knew that life began on this earth. For instance -- discerning life around us before there were instruments capable of detecting age in fossils and other elements, we see earth, soil, rocks, animals, vegetables, stars, etc, many might wonder how did it all get here? They might also think maybe green grass, etc., animals, were always here.

Curiosity. Same as the rest of us.
 

Dan From Smithville

For the World Is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky
Staff member
Premium Member
I find it’s funny - in the irony-sense, not funny as in hilarious - that cladking blamed everyone for playing the semantic games, when that exactly what he has been doing all along, for years now.

I am already in his ignore list, and I’m fine with that…as I don’t have to go down his rabbit holes. I still reply his posts on occasion, just for other people’s benefits, so that they understand that there others’ views that countered his.
I have had some hope, perhaps misguided, that stark criticism might inspire a reduction in the reliance on the seeming science fan fiction dogma and encourage a paradigm shift to a more rational approach. It was a Hail Mary with little chance of success.
 

Pogo

Well-Known Member
Nearly impossible to find a lot of Mexican ingredients in Australia other than paying exorbitant prices online.
Yeah, I guess I am lucky, 35k people but a college town so we have Korean, South-east Asian, Halal stores etc and Hispanic and SouthAsian each get a whole long Isle plus in our giant grocery stores. That said, I couldn't get Kafir lime leaves except online and a friend does have to drive 50 miles for the African market if he wants goat etc. Anyhow, you have Nagi whose recipes I will attempt with modification whenever I Google the list of stuff in my regrigerator but don't know what to make and one of her's comes up.

+You and your birds are way more colorful.
 
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