Atheists' bizarre way asking for "proof of God"

[Revoltingest]

Well, that's just silly (IMO). It presumes that if God exists, you would have evidence of it. And I don't see how you could possibly defend that presumption, logically.

It's easy to defend logically.
But not every person can understand it.
I run across this regularly....even today.
(Some people use feelings instead of reasoning.)

There is no evidence of something.
Therefore it's possible that this something doesn't exist.
If it's possibly non-existent, then I won't believe it exists.

Also, you speak of "God", the name of the Christian god.
Why presume that he is "the god"?
Why presume there's only one god.
Why deny the existence of other gods just cuz there's no evidence for them?
I'm not the one making presumptions.

 

[PureX]

You were doing fine for awhile, but just couldn't help but let your guard down and begin the personal attacks.

If you saw a "personal attack" in that comment then you have some sort of internal problem you need to deal with.

You don't want to know how I feel about the way you think. You consider not thinking by faith illogical, then call others who have transcended such magical thinking fools.

You're being way too 'black and white' in your interpretation of faith, and "evidence". Every time you get behind the wheel of your car you are engaging in an act of faith, AND doing so based on evidential probability. We live our whole lives this way. So proclaiming acts of faith to be nothing more than "magical thinking" is just gaslighting.
I wanted to ask the people at Jonestown, Waco, Heaven's Gate, and the Capitol insurrectionists about acting on faith rather than common sense, but they were all dead or in jail.

Then I asked the climate deniers and flat earther's for advice, but they seemed rather ignorant. I haven't had much luck with such people, and will likely cease going to them for advice.

Just because we can place our faith in the wrong ideas, and find that acting on them causes us harm doesn't mean that we should never place our faith in any idea because it will surely cause us or others harm.

I know you have no legitimate argument to pose when you have to rely on such extreme mischaracterization to try and defend your position.

 

[PureX]

It's easy to defend logically.
But not every person can understand it.
I run across this regularly....even today.
(Some people use feelings instead of reasoning.)

There is no evidence of something.
Therefore it's possible that this something doesn't exist.
If it's possibly non-existent, then I won't believe it exists.

What would the evidence of God's existence be, that you expect must be available to you, if God exists?

 

[Revoltingest]

What would the evidence of God's existence be, that you expect must be available to you, if God exists?

I don't know.
It's hard to describe evidence that's non-existent.

 

[PureX]

So you're admitting that God isn't an actual being that a believer relates to, but an idea a person "trusts" because they are exposed to it while living is some social experience.

What is an "actual being"? What do you or I know of the "actual beings" that may or may not exist? What do we even know of "existence"? What can or cannot be contained within this idealized state? What do we really "know" about anything beyond our very limited direct experience?

It's very easy for we humans to strut around presuming to know what exists and what doesn't. But in the end it's pretty much all personal bias, and faith. Even science, at it's best, can only theorize about relative the functionality within physical existence. And that leaves out a whole lot of questions.

So can you outline the positives results in this, and how they offset negative results?

Many, many BILLIONS of humans all over the world, and throughout time, have found meaning and purpose for their lives, and their loves, and their suffering, and their success, through their faith in their gods. Just as, literally BILLIONS of human beings are doing so, today.

What is biased in me realizing that ideas of God are a social phenomenon and most people adopt one idea of another subconsciously and don't question whether their belief is true and warranted?

People question their own beliefs about "God" just about as much as you question your "disbelief". Never; until and unless we are willing to set aside the insistence refrain of our egos telling us that we must be right at any cost, and by any means available.

And how will imagination help me be a more objective and rational person if I have to apply imagination in dealing with the ideas of God I'm exposed to in my social experience? It sounds like you're suggesting I suspend judgment and critical thought and just adopt the ideas of those around me, like a robot.

If you really can't see how crucially important imagination is to the human experience, I don't know how to explain it to you in a way that you could possibly understand.

 

[PureX]

I don't know.
It's hard to describe evidence that's non-existent.

And yet, you are so sure that you DO know.

 

[Revoltingest]

And yet, you are so sure that you DO know.

Actually, I'm sure that I don't know.
So I don't believe in gods...especially your God.

You're objecting to my disbelief.
It appears that you claim I should believe in your
God....because I cannot describe the non-existent
evidence that would prove its existence.

Some advice...
You should never use the word "logically".

 

[PureX]

You explain what is factual in having faith in God.

Faith is not about fact. It's about hope, and trust, and the result of applying the latter to the former.

And do you think the "faith" religious people have is divorced from the historic myths of those same gods?

How people choose to conceptualize the mystery of God is their choice. How I choose to conceptualize the mystery of God is my choice. How well (positively) our chosen conceptualizations and practices work for us depends on many things. But I think it's logical to assume that people choose the god-concepts that they do, and the practices that go with them, because they feel it works for them in a positive way.

It's just a giant waste of everyone's time to attack these many various human conceptualizations (along with their depictions, and rituals, and dogmas, and tradition, etc) on the basis that they are human conceptualizations. That they are not God. And that they are not supernatural. Because anyone who is even remotely aware of their religiosity as an act of faith already knows this. And the vast majority of religious humans do already know this.

But we can't see that theists are relating to anything but these old ideas when they believe in it, or have faith in it.

They are USING those ideals, and images, and doctrines, and rituals, and so on to help them relate to a God that is beyond human understanding. That is beyond their understanding. A God that is the source, sustenance, and purpose of all that it.

Why would a person in 2021 assume Jesus is any sort of real something that they relate to?

Because that character in that story represents a set of ideals that are very real to those who follow them. They use their internalized idea of that character as a way of relating to those ideals, and of holding onto them, and of trying to live by them.

The real question is, why are you trying to ruin that for them?

 

[PureX]

Actually, I'm sure that I don't know.

Yes, but then you assume that the fact THAT you don't know defines WHAT you don't know right out of existence. This is totally illogical. And you apparently cannot see the illogic of this, because you now "believe in" it's validity. And you believe in it so strongly that you can't even see yourself as having any choice but to believe in it.

You're objecting to my disbelief.

No, I'm objecting to the absurdity of what you truly believe: that (your) not knowing equates to (it) not existing.

It appears that you claim I should believe in your God....because I cannot describe the non-existent evidence that would prove its existence.

I'm sorry that you are so confused. But honestly, I really don't care what you "disbelieve", or why. Yet part of our coming here and discussing these things is so we can hopefully learn to think more clearly and reasonably about these things with each other's help. And ultimately, to function better in life, as a result.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yes, but then you assume that the fact THAT you don't know defines WHAT you don't know right out of existence. This is totally illogical. And you apparently cannot see the illogic of this, because you now "believe in" it's validity. And you believe in it so strongly that you can't even see yourself as having any choice but to believe in it.
No, I'm objecting to the absurdity of what you truly believe: that (your) not knowing equates to (it) not existing.
I'm sorry that you are so confused. But honestly, I really don't care what you "disbelieve", or why. Yet part of our coming here and discussing these things is so we can hopefully learn to think more clearly and reasonably about these things with each other's help. And ultimately, to function better in life, as a result.

Something really wrong is going on here.
I keep saying that I don't believe in your God or any
other sky fairies. I never claimed that gods cannot exist.
But your posts are hostile objection to my disbelief,
calling it "silly" & illogical.
Believe in whichever & how many gods you want.
It's no skin off my nose. But this "logic" you speak of...
...I highly recommend learning it before attacking
others for lack thereof.

This might help you too....
Definition of disbelieve | Dictionary.com
Excerpted....
verb (used with object), dis·be·lieved, dis·be·liev·ing.
to have no belief in; refuse or reject belief in:to disbelieve reports of UFO sightings.
verb (used without object), dis·be·lieved, dis·be·liev·ing.
to refuse or reject belief; have no belief.

 

[PureX]

Something really wrong is going on here.
I keep saying that I don't believe in your God or any
other sky fairies.

No one cares what you don't believe in. I certainly don't. What I'm objecting to is what you DO believe in: that your not knowing equates to 'God' not existing.

I never claimed that gods cannot exist.

You choose to believe that "God/gods" do not exist unless and until you receive sufficient evidence of their existence. And you've said so many times. In fact, you believe it so stringently that you can no longer even see it as a choice that you've made. So why are you back-tracking, now?

 

[Friend of Mara]

No one cares what you don't believe in. I certainly don't. What I'm objecting to is what you DO believe in: that your not knowing equates to 'God' not existing.

Sorry to butt into your conversation but this made me remember a point.

There is a lot of focus sometimes on the "lack of a belief" or "disbelief" an atheist has rather than a belief that god does not exist. And there is a lot of pressure put on that bit of the argument. This is true for me and I would wager it is true for many other atheists as well. I actively believe god does not exist. Now my conclusions aren't so grand that I have esoteric knowledge bestowed upon me by a great one from above. The conclusion comes from a long line of reasoning and thought about human behavior.

Not only is there no evidence of mythological creatures, gods or other fables that have been believed throughout our history as a species but there is great evidence that it has been part of the human experience. I can actively believe that humans have the propensity for having beliefs that are wrong. Nearly every culture has religion. The variances of these religions are so great it seems extremely unlikely they are different interpretations of the same entity. Evolutionary psychology is a whole field dedicated to how our human minds developed the little ticks that we have. And learning about these is so insightful that it makes me believe that there is no god. That it is all much machinations of the mind.

So "could" there be an unperceivable force in the universe that has sentience and even by extension cares about us? Maybe. A lot of things are technically possible. But I very much doubt any of that to be true.

 

[Revoltingest]

No one cares what you don't believe in. I certainly don't.

But your going on & on about it with sharp
criticism does indicate intense interest.
Why would my disbelief in gods affect you so?

 

[PureX]

Sorry to butt into your conversation but this made me remember a point.

There is a lot of focus sometimes on the "lack of a belief" or "disbelief" an atheist has rather than a belief that god does not exist. And there is a lot of pressure put on that bit of the argument. This is true for me and I would wager it is true for many other atheists as well. I actively believe god does not exist. Now my conclusions aren't so grand that I have esoteric knowledge bestowed upon me by a great one from above. The conclusion comes from a long line of reasoning and thought about human behavior.

I understand, but the exact same things can be said of most any theist. Because very few of them would claim to be certain of their beliefs (whatever they are) in or about 'God'. Which is why I maintain that the theism/atheism debate has almost nothing to do with belief vs unbelief, and has everything to do with choosing faith, vs rejecting faith in the god-ideal.

Yes, there are a few theist who like to pontificate about how they "know" that their God is THE God and all that, but only a fool would make such a claim, and only a fool would then debate it on their level. Yet it seems that the atheist just can't resist it. So much so that these are the only theists they ever recognize. To the degree that they perceive all theists to be so absurdly assertive. When in actuality, almost none of them are. But the few who are make for a very easy target for slander, and abuse, and blame, and ridicule. And sadly, that's a fun game for many an atheist, who are holding a big fat chip on their shoulder against religiosity (which is not synonymous with theism) over past abuse.

Not only is there no evidence of mythological creatures, gods or other fables that have been believed throughout our history as a species but there is great evidence that it has been part of the human experience. I can actively believe that humans have the propensity for having beliefs that are wrong. Nearly every culture has religion. The variances of these religions are so great it seems extremely unlikely they are different interpretations of the same entity. Evolutionary psychology is a whole field dedicated to how our human minds developed the little ticks that we have. And learning about these is so insightful that it makes me believe that there is no god. That it is all much machinations of the mind.

To blame mythology for being mythological achieves what, exactly? And has to do with the nature or existence of 'God', how, exactly? And yet this is the argument that the atheist runs to and asserts ad nauseam. Because it's a big fat straw man that they can easily tear apart.

So "could" there be an unperceivable force in the universe that has sentience and even by extension cares about us? Maybe. A lot of things are technically possible. But I very much doubt any of that to be true.

Why? By what reasoning do you choose to doubt, rather than to wonder, and speculate, and contemplate the possibilities? Forget the religious mythology, and cultural manipulation, and all that; how about just for yourself? What could "God" be to you? And if you were to allow yourself this ideal, how could it change and improve your life? I ask because these are the questions that matter, and that do have answers, based on our experiences, as evidence.

 

[stvdv]

It's not quite that simple. When I looked into the matter with some care I >got a zero result<.

I agree it is not 'that simple'. When I started my Quest into the Spiritual world, remembering I studied engineering for 5 years, I decided to give the Spiritual Quest at least 5 years, though the first thought that struck me was "10 years is probably a more real number, given that the Spiritual world is like a university compared to elementary material school of the world, in the way of difficulty to understand it". Because we have to purify our senses and our mind to open up our inner senses to get in touch with these higher dimensions in this Universe. And we all know that this is the hardest thing to accomplish.

My Master once told us, that 1 out of 1000 people start the Spiritual Quest. Only 1 out of those 1000 have the drive to continue their Quest, and only 1 out of those 1000 finally reach the goal. So, that would only be a handful in the whole world. No illusions left, for me, after hearing this. But, at least I enjoy my personal Quest in life. And that is all that matters to me. All humans are different, so all humans have their own Quests, and I think that is perfect.

Seeing this immensely huge Universe, I would be surprised if there is not much more wisdom, power, intelligence than the little part I have. Realizing this makes me humble, and also it intrigues me, and I enjoy getting in touch with these other dimensions.

But for sure not easy. I think it took maybe 3 years, before I got my first personal experiences. I am glad I continued.

I also know that this is not the path for all others. I think it is most important for everyone, to find his/her own path in life, whatever it may be, and just be happy and enjoy life while following one's own dreams. I don't believe in 1 goal for all, people are just too diverse for this to be true IMO

 

[Kooky]

If you saw a "personal attack" in that comment then you have some sort of internal problem you need to deal with.
You're being way too 'black and white' in your interpretation of faith, and "evidence". Every time you get behind the wheel of your car you are engaging in an act of faith, AND doing so based on evidential probability. We live our whole lives this way. So proclaiming acts of faith to be nothing more than "magical thinking" is just gaslighting.
I wanted to ask the people at Jonestown, Waco, Heaven's Gate, and the Capitol insurrectionists about acting on faith rather than common sense, but they were all dead or in jail. Just because we can place our faith in the wrong ideas, and find that acting on them causes us harm doesn't mean that we should never place our faith in any idea because it will surely cause us or others harm.

I know you have no legitimate argument to pose when you have to rely on such extreme mischaracterization to try and defend your position.

So what's the different between cars and gods then? Are cars a matter of faith?
Does it matter at all if either one of us believes in cars?

 

[blü 2]

I agree it is not 'that simple'. When I started my Quest into the Spiritual world, remembering I studied engineering for 5 years, I decided to give the Spiritual Quest at least 5 years, though the first thought that struck me was "10 years is probably a more real number, given that the Spiritual world is like a university compared to elementary material school of the world, in the way of difficulty to understand it". Because we have to purify our senses and our mind to open up our inner senses to get in touch with these higher dimensions in this Universe. And we all know that this is the hardest thing to accomplish.

My Master once told us, that 1 out of 1000 people start the Spiritual Quest. Only 1 out of those 1000 have the drive to continue their Quest, and only 1 out of those 1000 finally reach the goal. So, that would only be a handful in the whole world. No illusions left, for me, after hearing this. But, at least I enjoy my personal Quest in life. And that is all that matters to me. All humans are different, so all humans have their own Quests, and I think that is perfect.

Seeing this immensely huge Universe, I would be surprised if there is not much more wisdom, power, intelligence than the little part I have. Realizing this makes me humble, and also it intrigues me, and I enjoy getting in touch with these other dimensions.

But for sure not easy. I think it took maybe 3 years, before I got my first personal experiences. I am glad I continued.

I also know that this is not the path for all others. I think it is most important for everyone, to find his/her own path in life, whatever it may be, and just be happy and enjoy life while following one's own dreams. I don't believe in 1 goal for all, people are just too diverse for this to be true IMO

Well, these are the debate boards here at RF.

But regardless, good luck on your quest. It's not my quest, but all the best,

 

[F1fan]

What is an "actual being"? What do you or I know of the "actual beings" that may or may not exist?

Can you tell the difference between masturbation and sex with another person? If yes, then you understand that when you imagine having sex with someone that is a mental image and not an actual person you're having sex with. Actual beings are beings that exist independently of our imagination. You're not confused by this, are you?

What do we even know of "existence"? What can or cannot be contained within this idealized state? What do we really "know" about anything beyond our very limited direct experience?

Are you confused by existence? Perhaps you shouldn't;t have a driver's license if you can't discern existing things from imaginary things.

It's very easy for we humans to strut around presuming to know what exists and what doesn't. But in the end it's pretty much all personal bias, and faith. Even science, at it's best, can only theorize about relative the functionality within physical existence. And that leaves out a whole lot of questions.

Do you think it's odd that some can be certain that a God exists but can't explain;ain in any objective way why they think that? Wouldn't that be arrogant?

Many, many BILLIONS of humans all over the world, and throughout time, have found meaning and purpose for their lives, and their loves, and their suffering, and their success, through their faith in their gods. Just as, literally BILLIONS of human beings are doing so, today.
People question their own beliefs about "God" just about as much as you question your "disbelief". Never; until and unless we are willing to set aside the insistence refrain of our egos telling us that we must be right at any cost, and by any means available.
If you really can't see how crucially important imagination is to the human experience, I don't know how to explain it to you in a way that you could possibly understand.

The social sciences and biology can explain why humans evolved to believe in tribal concepts. Belief in religious icons and concepts has a huge biological component. many believers ,make the mistake that they believe deliberately and by choice, but that simply isn't what the research shows. Most all theists have no idea why they ended up adopting religious beliefs. No one comes to an objective conclusion that a god exists. It is learned behavior that has a biological drive behind it. It's estimated that about 15% of folks don't have this biological drive, and that is about the percentage of people on the planet who haven't adopted religious concepts.

 

[F1fan]

Faith is not about fact.

Right, that's why it's unreliable and should be avoided.

It's about hope, and trust, and the result of applying the latter to the former.

People who cant manage or control their lives need hope. It's not a sound or mature way to live a life.

How people choose to conceptualize the mystery of God is their choice.

No it isn't. How does a 10 year old kid have the capacity to conceptualize a god intellectually? Dad tells the son he has to believe and explains what the truth is and must accept it. What choice does the child have? Can he even know better, all his friends have to believe this too. This can be a kid in Boston who has to go to Mass and Communion and doesn't understand any of it. Or it could be a dad in Afghanistan priming his kid for a suicide mission against American troops. These are not uncommon, so defend it.

How I choose to conceptualize the mystery of God is my choice.

OK, can you choose to conceptualize God as a polytheistic system with hundreds of gods? Is it that simple, and you have this freedom and will?

How well (positively) our chosen conceptualizations and practices work for us depends on many things. But I think it's logical to assume that people choose the god-concepts that they do, and the practices that go with them, because they feel it works for them in a positive way.

You have to see it this way to justify your own behavior. How often do you acknowledge the negative influences of religion?

It's just a giant waste of everyone's time to attack these many various human conceptualizations (along with their depictions, and rituals, and dogmas, and tradition, etc) on the basis that they are human conceptualizations. That they are not God. And that they are not supernatural. Because anyone who is even remotely aware of their religiosity as an act of faith already knows this. And the vast majority of religious humans do already know this.
They are USING those ideals, and images, and doctrines, and rituals, and so on to help them relate to a God that is beyond human understanding. That is beyond their understanding. A God that is the source, sustenance, and purpose of all that it.

So can you admit there's a likelihood that the reason people can't understand god is because it's not there, it's just conceptualizations, and what the previous generations taught them about gods being real is inaccurate?

Because that character in that story represents a set of ideals that are very real to those who follow them. They use their internalized idea of that character as a way of relating to those ideals, and of holding onto them, and of trying to live by them.

The real question is, why are you trying to ruin that for them?

What you are describing is people living very heavily in the illusions their mind has adopted, created, and has to work hard to maintain. It must be exhausting for some of these people. What freedom do they have from these illusions when there is so much social and family pressure to believe? That's a lot of work for illusion. What is wrong with reality?

 

[F1fan]

What would the evidence of God's existence be, that you expect must be available to you, if God exists?

I'd be impressed if every child suffering from cancer in St. Judes woke up tomorrow completely cured, and they all get a shot at living a childhood and a chance at life like any other kid. But hey, why stop there? What if kids suffering from serious and fatal diseases were miraculously cured overnight? I'd be impressed. Atheists everywhere would be impressed, and most I suspect would seriously consider a god exists (but still have some serious questions, like why wait so long?).

What would you do if you were God? Just continue to burn images of Jesus on toast?