Atheists' bizarre way asking for "proof of God"

[PureX]

So what's the different between cars and gods then? Are cars a matter of faith?
Does it matter at all if either one of us believes in cars?

It's not about the cars, but the people driving them. And our trusting in the idea that they will behave reasonably. We think they probably will, but we can't know it. So we have to trust in our hope that they will.

It's the same with the ideal of 'God', except that we have no way of establishing probability. So we are left with the choice to trust in our hope that God exists and is benevolent, or not to. And act accordingly, to see how that works out for us. All this BS about proof and evidence is irrelevant. It's a simple faith choice.

 

[Friend of Mara]

I understand, but the exact same things can be said of most any theist. Because very few of them would claim to be certain of their beliefs (whatever they are) in or about 'God'. Which is why I maintain that the theism/atheism debate has almost nothing to do with belief vs unbelief, and has everything to do with choosing faith, vs rejecting faith in the god-ideal.

You could notion that but it seems to simply to the point of inaccuracy.

I hold the explanation behind religion in higher regard than the alternative answer that religion is the answer. Its not even so much a choice on my part but simply how I see it.

Yes, there are a few theist who like to pontificate about how they "know" that their God is THE God and all that, but only a fool would make such a claim, and only a fool would then debate it on their level. Yet it seems that the atheist just can't resist it. So much so that these are the only theists they ever recognize. To the degree that they perceive all theists to be so absurdly assertive. When in actuality, almost none of them are. But the few who are make for a very easy target for slander, and abuse, and blame, and ridicule. And sadly, that's a fun game for many an atheist, who are holding a big fat chip on their shoulder against religiosity (which is not synonymous with theism) over past abuse.

While I'm sure it exists I feel my above answer works in either scenario. We know how and why religiosity can grow in the human psyche and it is an interesting psychological phenomenon that people find comfort when "spiritual" needs are met. Though at the end of the day its still just an interesting psychological question. And this holds just as true to the religious fanatic to the most reasonable of spiritual folk.

To blame mythology for being mythological achieves what, exactly? And has to do with the nature or existence of 'God', how, exactly? And yet this is the argument that the atheist runs to and asserts ad nauseam. Because it's a big fat straw man that they can easily tear apart.

Mythology and the nature/existence of god are not separate. The Greeks felt every bit as sure in their faith as the Christians or the Egyptians or the Muslims or the Japanese or the Hindu people. Hinduism is a religion today and not a mythology purely based on its current number of worshipers.

I don't see how it is a strawman. Perhaps the philosophical take leads to thought experiments wroth considering for your own contemplation? But as far as the root of "why" humans have superstition, religion, mythology and conspiracy theories. I'm not trying to compare things one might consider "lesser" than religion to strawman them but simply to state that the mechanisms that lead people to believe these things are in common.

Why? By what reasoning do you choose to doubt, rather than to wonder, and speculate, and contemplate the possibilities? Forget the religious mythology, and cultural manipulation, and all that; how about just for yourself? What could "God" be to you? And if you were to allow yourself this ideal, how could it change and improve your life? I ask because these are the questions that matter, and that do have answers, based on our experiences, as evidence.

Are you asking why I am skeptical vs not being skeptical? I hope I have misunderstood that part and hopefully you can clarify that.

Those kinds of questions seem silly to me. Have I taken part in "spiritual" health to attempt to better myself? Yes. But it is usually with meditation, contemplation or both. I don't think such a thing as a "god" exist. If it does exist it doesn't affect my life. I do take my own experiences as evidence for my personal life. That is just called personal growth though. Nothing to do with existential beings or really even concepts.

If you want an example of a thought experiment I've had that was "spiritual" but not religious in any way would be this. The universe is one thing. We are all part of the whole. My sentience is the universe's sentience. If there is a god it would be the universe and I am part of that universe. Part of the whole. I find that to be a good meditation topic to help ground me if my anxiety starts to act up.

 

[F1fan]

It's not about the cars, but the people driving them. And our trusting in the idea that they will behave reasonably. We think they probably will, but we can't know it. So we have to trust in our hope that they will.

We have to trust others just to carry on with our goals in life, we have no real choice in the matter. It's part of the social contract we assume as social and civilized beings. The risk we take in driving, running, cycling on roads is mitigated with laws, but even that doesn't remove the risk. We can't let fear totally control our decisions. I've had quite a few cycling friends killed and injured by drunk and careless drivers over the years, but we cyclists are aware there's a risk. There are things cyclists can do to help increase safety on the road.

But contrast this with trusting a God. How does that work? You trust your child won't have serious health problems, but alas your three year old is diagnosed with Leukemia. But you trust in God that the doctors will implement painful treatments that will save your baby, but alas after 2 years the child dies. So an all-powerful god that supposedly can save the child and knows of your trust just decides to ignore you, and kill a child?

It's the same with the ideal of 'God', except that we have no way of establishing probability. So we are left with the choice to trust in our hope that God exists and is benevolent, or not to. And act accordingly, to see how that works out for us. All this BS about proof and evidence is irrelevant. It's a simple faith choice.

As we see above regardless of how we fallible mortal extend trust, it is not always reliable or based on reality. Your scenario here admits you don't know if a God exists, and you are gambling with the hope that it does. You';re relying on your ability to create and illusion and work hard to maintain the deception to the self that it's real and helps. But despite this work you still know you're on your own, whether it's the illusion or having to make your own decisions in life to cope with whatever challenges come your way.

What you describe is people who cannot trust themselves, nor have the confidence to navigate life with a realistic understanding of how things are.

 

[F1fan]

Are you asking why I am skeptical vs not being skeptical? I hope I have misunderstood that part and hopefully you can clarify that.

Those kinds of questions seem silly to me. Have I taken part in "spiritual" health to attempt to better myself? Yes. But it is usually with meditation, contemplation or both. I don't think such a thing as a "god" exist. If it does exist it doesn't affect my life. I do take my own experiences as evidence for my personal life. That is just called personal growth though. Nothing to do with existential beings or really even concepts.

If you want an example of a thought experiment I've had that was "spiritual" but not religious in any way would be this. The universe is one thing. We are all part of the whole. My sentience is the universe's sentience. If there is a god it would be the universe and I am part of that universe. Part of the whole. I find that to be a good meditation topic to help ground me if my anxiety starts to act up.

To my mind to be spiritual is to acknowledge our brains have very primal impulses, and that we often inherit bad social habits, so we can apply practices to attain and maintain physical, emotional, and intellectual balance.

I don't see many religions offering spiritual guidance, rather they offer a head full of concepts that keep a mind occupied, busy, and distracted with all sorts of drama. The more extreme forms seem to me as the antithesis to spiritual balance. I see these folks full of conflict, both inner conflict and with others.

 

[PureX]

We have to trust others just to carry on with our goals in life, we have no real choice in the matter. It's part of the social contract we assume as social and civilized beings. The risk we take in driving, running, cycling on roads is mitigated with laws, but even that doesn't remove the risk. We can't let fear totally control our decisions. I've had quite a few cycling friends killed and injured by drunk and careless drivers over the years, but we cyclists are aware there's a risk. There are things cyclists can do to help increase safety on the road.

But contrast this with trusting a God. How does that work?

The same way. "God" is the 'source, sustenance, and purpose of all that is'. And is therefor a mystery to us. The great mystery of (all/our) existence. And we need to be able to trust in this mystery to continue to function within it. Yet we don't know that we can trust existence not to harm us. Just like with the other drivers on the road. But still, we hope that we will be safe, and we choose to trust in that hope, and to act on that trust. Because the alternative is unacceptable. The alternative is fear and stagnation.

But a lot of people have difficulty trusting in such an unknown as the 'great existential mystery'. So they personify it, feeling that somehow they can relate to it better, and interact with it in some way. Whole religions spring up with sets of rules and rituals that help people feel that they are able to trust in and interact with this great existential mystery. Others reject religion and turn to "scientism"; imagining that somehow science and empirical reasoning will provide them with the ability to control their own existential fate.

But in the end we're all still living in the dark. And it's all still about finding and choosing the object and methods of our faith. "Belief" has nothing to do with it. Belief is just our egos telling us we're right when we really have no way of knowing that.

You trust your child won't have serious health problems, but alas your three year old is diagnosed with Leukemia. But you trust in God that the doctors will implement painful treatments that will save your baby, but alas after 2 years the child dies. So an all-powerful god that supposedly can save the child and knows of your trust just decides to ignore you, and kill a child?

Yes. And people do lose hope. But it's a horrible way to live. So most people find some way to hope and trust, again. The alternative is unacceptable.

As we see above regardless of how we fallible mortal extend trust, it is not always reliable or based on reality.

But the alternative is unacceptable.

Your scenario here admits you don't know if a God exists, and you are gambling with the hope that it does. You're relying on your ability to create and illusion and work hard to maintain the deception to the self that it's real and helps. But despite this work you still know you're on your own, whether it's the illusion or having to make your own decisions in life to cope with whatever challenges come your way.

These are not mutually exclusive conditions. Everyone is having to make their own decisions and then hope and trust that they're the right decisions relative to the great existential mystery that we're living. Theism helps a whole lot of people do that. So does religion. So does science. So does logic, and reason, and intuition. So does engaging in the creative arts. So does philosophical discussion and debate. These are all tools that we humans use to try and deal with our own profound ignorance. And you are one of us, too. You are no different. You are just as 'unknowing' as the rest of us.

What you describe is people who cannot trust themselves, nor have the confidence to navigate life with a realistic understanding of how things are.

We live in a profound state of ignorance. We have no idea why we are here, or to what end. Or what will happen to us or to those we care about at any given moment. So yes, we need to find things to hope in, and ways to trust in that hope, just so we can muster the courage to take action and see what comes of it.

 

[Kooky]

It's not about the cars, but the people driving them.

Actually, I believe that all cars are self driving.
Since we can't know for sure either way, that's the idea I simply find more compelling.

 

[McBell]

No one cares what you don't believe in. I certainly don't.

Pull the other one, it has bells on it.

 

[F1fan]

The same way. "God" is the 'source, sustenance, and purpose of all that is'. And is therefor a mystery to us.

Sorry, you don't get to refer to things not known to exist like gods as if they have a real effect on people's lives without FIRST showing they exist outside of human imagination.

The great mystery of (all/our) existence. And we need to be able to trust in this mystery to continue to function within it. Yet we don't know that we can trust existence not to harm us. Just like with the other drivers on the road. But still, we hope that we will be safe, and we choose to trust in that hope, and to act on that trust. Because the alternative is unacceptable. The alternative is fear and stagnation.

What are you talking about? Humans can't trust mystery. That is incomprehensible.

Humans are like any other organism and we will die at some point. How and why can be any arbitrary thing.

But a lot of people have difficulty trusting in such an unknown as the 'great existential mystery'. So they personify it, feeling that somehow they can relate to it better, and interact with it in some way. Whole religions spring up with sets of rules and rituals that help people feel that they are able to trust in and interact with this great existential mystery. Others reject religion and turn to "scientism"; imagining that somehow science and empirical reasoning will provide them with the ability to control their own existential fate.

But in the end we're all still living in the dark. And it's all still about finding and choosing the object and methods of our faith. "Belief" has nothing to do with it. Belief is just our egos telling us we're right when we really have no way of knowing that.

A lot of this sounds like you're creating problems for yourself and making yourself emotionally dependent on religious belief. And none of it solves any actual problems.

Yes. And people do lose hope. But it's a horrible way to live. So most people find some way to hope and trust, again. The alternative is unacceptable.

This is why there is therapy and metal heath services. Self-deception through faith only masks the despair people have.

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These are not mutually exclusive conditions. Everyone is having to make their own decisions and then hope and trust that they're the right decisions relative to the great existential mystery that we're living. Theism helps a whole lot of people do that. So does religion. So does science. So does logic, and reason, and intuition. So does engaging in the creative arts. So does philosophical discussion and debate. These are all tools that we humans use to try and deal with our own profound ignorance. And you are one of us, too. You are no different. You are just as 'unknowing' as the rest of us.

You seem to be looking at the dependency on religion as a theist who is dependent on religion. You're likely one of the people born with a predisposition for the need to believe. You really have no interest in understand the nature of how your mind is reliant on religion because that will create even more distress.

We live in a profound state of ignorance. We have no idea why we are here, or to what end. Or what will happen to us or to those we care about at any given moment. So yes, we need to find things to hope in, and ways to trust in that hope, just so we can muster the courage to take action and see what comes of it.

I see a lot of religious folks create this serious mystery about life that then pushes them to find god or meaning or whatever. It's all mental theater. Objective thinkers are bored with it.