Atheists have faith.

[ChristineM]

Seems as if an atheist has faith that there is No God.
Since it can Not be proven there is No God then it is the exercise of 'faith' in the non-existence of God.

Does make one wonder since we don't see anyone trying to convince or fight over the existence of Santa Claus because everyone knows Santa does Not exist, then why do atheists try to convince others over something that 'they' know is Not real ?

I also have faith that pink unicorns, tooth fairies, father Christmas, leprechauns etc don't exist

I don't know of any atheist who tries "to convince others" that gods don't exist, rather i see it often the other way round, the faithful attempting to convince atheist to believe in something they know is not real. Often at the point of a loaded bible

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Atheists Have Faith

You've already acknowledged that you haven't defined what you mean by faith. The word has multiple dictionary definition, but only two that are relevant here: justified belief, and unjustified belief. Calling them both faith creates ambiguity and equivocation fallacies. Personally, I've stopped using the word faith to mean justified belief. Somebody gave the example of expecting one's car to start but knowing that it might not based on experience. That's a very different kind of thinking than having faith that you will have an afterlife. Atheists engage in the former but not the latter, and thus have a reason to keep the two distinct.

For example, how many times have we seen the false equivalence that atheist have faith in science, so they're no different from theists who have faith in God. It's all faith, right? But this is a classic equivocation fallacy, wherein one uses the same word two different ways in an argument, such as, banks are a good place to keep your money, rivers have banks, therefore rivers are a good place to keep your money.

It also depends on what you mean by atheists. Many on RF define an atheist as somebody who has positively asserted that there are no gods. That is a faith-based position.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Atheist : a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

Nothing more. Nothing less.

I am an atheist and have faith that i will live to see my children fledge the nest.

I have faith that my husband loves me.

I have faith i all sorts of things. I simply do not have faith in god or gods. Oh and by the way. Im a human being too

Yes we know that is what an Atheist will say and I offered this quote in the OP

"All humanity must obtain a livelihood by sweat of the brow and bodily exertion, at the same time seeking to lift the burden of others, striving to be the source of comfort to souls and facilitating the means of living."

It goes on to say that "This in itself is devotion to God".

I am just asking about the above actions, are they part of your life?

If they are, then your actions are as faithful as mine.

Regards Tony

 

[ChristineM]

Yes we know that is what an Atheist will say and I offered this quote in the OP

"All humanity must obtain a livelihood by sweat of the brow and bodily exertion, at the same time seeking to lift the burden of others, striving to be the source of comfort to souls and facilitating the means of living."

It goes on to say that "This in itself is devotion to God".

I am just asking about the above actions, are they part of your life?

If they are, then your actions are as faithful as mine.

Regards Tony

Wrong, this in itself is devotion to humanity, no god needed to be a decent, caring human being

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It feels good, it's the right thing to do, maybe if I show someone kindness they might return it. It's probably an instinct we've evolved, we're herd animals and doing something that aids my tribe is good for survival.

Maybe our actions are not that shallow, I will post part of a quote above.

"All humanity must obtain a livelihood by sweat of the brow and bodily exertion, at the same time seeking to lift the burden of others, striving to be the source of comfort to souls and facilitating the means of living.

It says that if we do the above that "This in itself is devotion to God".

So it may be an Atheist who implements all the above in their lives may have a stronger faith than many of those that claim a faith.

I see some people are not ready to admit the good is greater then themselves, then there are many that do all those actions in silence, they are the hidden Gems of our Nations.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Wrong, this in itself is devotion to humanity, no god needed to be a decent, caring human being

So you have Faith that being a decent, caring human being is devotion to Humanity as a whole, that is great, well done I say.

Regards Tony

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I also have faith that pink unicorns, tooth fairies, father Christmas, leprechauns etc don't exist
I don't know of any atheist who tries "to convince others" that gods don't exist, rather i see it often the other way round, the faithful attempting to convince atheist to believe in something they know is not real. Often at the point of a loaded bible

Is having a real faith in pink unicorns, etc. really the exercise of faith/confidence or credulity.
What else would a Christian use except a 'loaded' (complete) Bible.
Meaning: using Scripture as Jesus did as being religious truth, Not at biblical gun point.
An overly zealous person does Not make the Bible as wrong, just makes the person over reacting.
An English teacher would use English books, a Science teacher would use science books, a history teacher would use history books, a math teacher would use math books so what else would a Christian use but a Christian book aka Bible.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

So you have Faith that being a decent, caring human being is devotion to Humanity as a whole, that is great, well done I say. Regards Tony

An atheist I find can be a decent, caring human as was the neighbory good Samaritan.
However, what atheist follows Jesus' instructions of Matthew 24:14 to tell others about God's kingdom (Daniel 2:44)

 

[ChristineM]

So you have Faith that being a decent, caring human being is devotion to Humanity as a whole, that is great, well done I say.

Regards Tony

Don't be sarcastic in ignorance, its not your style

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It also depends on what you mean by atheists. Many on RF define an atheist as somebody who has positively asserted that there are no gods. That is a faith-based position.

I see atheists define that for their own selves.

I see many people do acts that can only be backed in Faith.

Like giving to charities, one has Faith that what they offer will help the purpose of that charity.

I see the only issue here is that many do not want to admit they do things based in Faith, the word is what distracts them.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

An atheist I find can be a decent, caring human as was the neighbory good Samaritan.
However, what atheist follows Jesus' instructions of Matthew 24:14 to tell others about God's kingdom (Daniel 2:44)

Good on them I say. There is no compulsion in religion, but Faith can move mountains.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Don't be sarcastic in ignorance, its not your style

Sorry that was not an intent.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

By equivocation. If you don't have a consistent definition you run into the possibility that you use different definitions on different occasions.
My "faith" that the earth will keep on turning so that I see the sun tomorrow in the east is based on 21686 instances of that being so with no counter example.
That is completely different to, say, someone having faith that the constellation of stars will predict events in politics.

What I am thinking is that there are many levels of Faith.

We have an ultimate level of Faith right to the complete lack of it.

So the OP is really about how much Faith does an Atheist really have and how can that be measured?

I have posted one standard, which reaches towards the highest levels.

"All humanity must obtain a livelihood by sweat of the brow and bodily exertion, at the same time seeking to lift the burden of others, striving to be the source of comfort to souls and facilitating the means of living."

It then says that "This in itself is devotion to God".

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Greater than self? So you want to live up to an ideal?

Faith seems to be absolute trust maybe? Absolute trust in God?

I don't really have absolute trust is anything. I have a degree of trust based on past success.

I no longer have an idea of something greater than myself. I've come to accept that I am what I am without trying to judge what I ought to be.

I trust that I will overcome the obstacles I face in life but know there is no guarantee. Perhaps faith makes you feel like you have a guarantee?
I'm ok without the guarantee or at least without the need to feel like I have one.

I see we all have that potential of good in us and we need to be motivated to bring that best out of us.

That is where I see we need a level of Faith, that the best is the right way.

Regards Tony

 

[Polymath257]

I see a big distinction between faith, as an example of confidence, and religious faith, which is a belief in a supernatural.

We can have great confidence in those things we have tested and verified. Have confidence in the love of my wife, for example. I have confidence my car will start. I have confidence that my computer will work.

Is it possible my confidence will be misplaced? Absolutely. I know it is possible that my car won't start tomorrow. I know it is possible for my computer not to work. And it is possible that the feeling my wife has for me have changed.

But *religious faith* is a different type of thing altogether. One of the big aspects of religious faith is belief in spite of the lack of evidence. It is also belief through confirmation bias, for example.

As IANS said above, confidence is 'justified faith' and I see religious faith as being 'unjustified' because it *cannot* be justified. There is no way to really test a religious belief.

So, the reason I am an atheist (I have no belief in any supernatural or in deities) is precisely the lack of evidence for deities or a supernatural. I do not have religious faith because I demand better evidence than religious faith can provide.

Morality and aesthetics are not parts of faith in my mind. I neither have confidence nor do I have religious faith in either.

 

[ChristineM]

Is having a real faith in pink unicorns, etc. really the exercise of faith/confidence or credulity.

Just as much an exercise if faith as any faith in a god.

What else would a Christian use except a 'loaded' (complete) Bible.

Well there ya go, how about nothing rather than putting you own guilt on atheists, i will remind you of your words

then why do atheists try to convince others over something that 'they' know is Not real ?

Or is it ok for you to try to convince atheist but you object to the obverse?

An English teacher would use English books, a Science teacher would use science books, a history teacher would use history books, a math teacher would use math books so what else would a Christian use but a Christian book aka Bible.

Same as previous answer

 

[Polymath257]

What I am thinking is that there are many levels of Faith.

We have an ultimate level of Faith right to the complete lack of it.

So the OP is really about how much Faith does an Atheist really have and how can that be measured?

I have posted one standard, which reaches towards the highest levels.

"All humanity must obtain a livelihood by sweat of the brow and bodily exertion, at the same time seeking to lift the burden of others, striving to be the source of comfort to souls and facilitating the means of living."

It then says that "This in itself is devotion to God".

Regards Tony

And that, to me, seems like religious practitioners trying to say that non-believers are acting under religion anyway.

Frankly, that sounds a bit presumptuous.

 

[RestlessSoul]

We don't have faith "in" anything we don't believe exists.

Just as I don't have faith to believe I can fly because I know gravity prevents me from doing so.

Likewise, I don't have faith to believe in a deity because the reality I understand it doesn't involve beings/deities/entities that has a hand in creating the universe. I see the opposite.

I flew from Prague to London this morning. Gravity was no object

 

[John53]

Maybe our actions are not that shallow, I will post part of a quote above.

I don't consider evolution to be shallow.

"All humanity must obtain a livelihood by sweat of the brow and bodily exertion, at the same time seeking to lift the burden of others, striving to be the source of comfort to souls and facilitating the means of living.

It says that if we do the above that "This in itself is devotion to God".

So it may be an Atheist who implements all the above in their lives may have a stronger faith than many of those that claim a faith.

I see some people are not ready to admit the good is greater then themselves, then there are many that do all those actions in silence, they are the hidden Gems of our Nations.

Regards Tony

Sorry Tony but I don't really understand what you're trying to say here and a quote is only an opinion. What I take from what you've written is that not all heroes wear capes but I'm assuming I'm wrong.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

This OP was inspired by a response in another post.

What is it to have Faith?

I see that many that do not have a belief in God or a Religion, still have Faith. I see that many actions are based on morals that transcend this mortal world and are thus undertaken in Faith.

I also see that it is naught but a faith to take a stance that there is no God. I see it is somewhat a coping mechanism, that those that choose this path will not be held accountable for their decisions, that they think they are free of the weight of this world, that they will live how they want to, die and that's it. It appears that It frees them from considering that there may be deeper moral or ethical responsibilities, when all we have to use as boundaries, are the materialistic trends.

I have faith and I am thankful that I will be accountable for the decisions I make and the weight of the world can be fully experienced and appreciated.

"All humanity must obtain a livelihood by sweat of the brow and bodily exertion, at the same time seeking to lift the burden of others, striving to be the source of comfort to souls and facilitating the means of living. This in itself is devotion to God. Bahá’u’lláh has thereby encouraged action and stimulated service."

‘Abdu’l-Bahá: Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 182

" Every person must have an occupation, a trade or a craft, so that he may carry other people's burdens, and not himself be a burden to others."

‘Abdu’l-Bahá, The Compilation of Compilations vol. I, p. 3

Faith is a service to all we cross paths with, without faith, one can deprive themselves from such service. With Faith our heart longs to be of this service.

So I see an Athiest can have Faith when they too transcend their own desires and serve others in preference of self.

So that is the debate, but is it really a debate?

Do you give of yourself to others?

As this action is a fundamental Faith based moral decision, do you have faith that action leads to better outcomes?

Regards Tony

imo, I think some people who claim to believe in a god and go to church, can possibly not have any faith. Although they will refer to their “religion” as their faith. Faith is a tough concept to grasp. imo