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Atheists, how did life start to you?
- Thread starter tiano
- Start date
How did man learn the skills needed to survive, or indeed animals too?
When we are hungry we get pains in our stomach and know WE need to eat but the very first people on earth must of wondered what was going on surely if they weren't learnt of our need to eat and what could be eaten.
You could say its instincts but aren't instincts just programming and if so, who or what by?
If there was only a few people at first and they were eating things by trial and error only, would they of not risked being poisoned a great deal in the first days? How then did man learn to heal illness through plants etc too?
Babies cry when they need to eat but can't get food themselves, they rely on us to feed them and teach them what to eat as they grow and there must of been a point were the earliest humans were taught too, so who or what by if not a god?
It might be the daftest question ever but its always seemed to me that there must of been some source to the knowledge man has gathered from day one.
If a child isnt taught anything they'd be dumb and incapable of pretty much anything.
You need to have a source of knowledge to learn knowledge and if it wasn't from a God, how did man get to where he's at?
Evolution has to have a basis, a starting place and animals teach their off cubs/pups etc on how to live, just like humans do but how did that initial basis come to be if not by a God?
I'm curious about the views of people on these kind of questions, if they don't believe there's a God really but the questions aren't just for atheists.
Thanks all
When we are hungry we get pains in our stomach and know WE need to eat but the very first people on earth must of wondered what was going on surely if they weren't learnt of our need to eat and what could be eaten.
You could say its instincts but aren't instincts just programming and if so, who or what by?
If there was only a few people at first and they were eating things by trial and error only, would they of not risked being poisoned a great deal in the first days? How then did man learn to heal illness through plants etc too?
Babies cry when they need to eat but can't get food themselves, they rely on us to feed them and teach them what to eat as they grow and there must of been a point were the earliest humans were taught too, so who or what by if not a god?
It might be the daftest question ever but its always seemed to me that there must of been some source to the knowledge man has gathered from day one.
If a child isnt taught anything they'd be dumb and incapable of pretty much anything.
You need to have a source of knowledge to learn knowledge and if it wasn't from a God, how did man get to where he's at?
Evolution has to have a basis, a starting place and animals teach their off cubs/pups etc on how to live, just like humans do but how did that initial basis come to be if not by a God?
I'm curious about the views of people on these kind of questions, if they don't believe there's a God really but the questions aren't just for atheists.
Thanks all
Opethian
Active Member
This is caused by natural selection and random mutations. You know you need to eat because of hormones reacting in your body, and these hormones are set free by certain parts of your body, which are subject to evolution.
Evolution.
Evolution
Evolution's only basis is the first life. The first life arised from dead matter, and there was no god in needed in the process.
DakotaGypsy
Active Member
I am here because all of my female ancestors were fleet enough of fin or paw or whatever to elude their predators and carry on the genetic line that led to my existence.
bunny1ohio
Active Member
Really good question.... and I couldn't honestly even speculate. I don't believe there is a G-d like that of the Christian religion... and I also am of the opinion that no religion has it quite right which I suppose makes me an atheist. I think where we came from or how we came to be could have been any number of things from G-d to evolution to aliens (but then where did THEY come from? :sarcastic ) I personally think we will never have an answer to that (in our lifetimes). That it is a subject that humans are not developed or "evolved" enough yet to comprehend fully, so we continue to theorize about it.
Until such time as someone CAN give a truly definative answer I'm gonna stick to my guns and say I have no clue, and I don't think I would understand if I was given the clues... and if there is a G-d or creator out there, that I'm not going to be arrogant enough to proclaim I know who or what it is or what it wants. Other than that *shrug* not much I could say to that question :dan:
Until such time as someone CAN give a truly definative answer I'm gonna stick to my guns and say I have no clue, and I don't think I would understand if I was given the clues... and if there is a G-d or creator out there, that I'm not going to be arrogant enough to proclaim I know who or what it is or what it wants. Other than that *shrug* not much I could say to that question :dan:
bunny1ohio
Active Member
Krie said:
I really don't think that is what the thread was asking :biglaugh: I think the author wanted to know where you think life began? Did we evolve from monkeys? Did we just POOF here through some wierd time/space vortex? Maybe we exploded out as living cells from the big BANG and just multiplied?
Where do YOU think people originated?
robtex
Veteran Member
Tiano, I think the question itself is more important to you and other theists than it is to non-theists. In all actually as a species we have not verified how life began. there are theories and speculations but nothing concrete yet. As an atheist I don't really fret much over how life began, but I noticed a lot of theists feel the issue is paramount and furthermore that having a personal relationship with the answer to that question is paramount and thus God is manefested metaphorically speaking.
As an atheist my answer is I don't know and my emotional need to know is minimal. It would be cool if an answer was uncovered while I was still alive I however, don't feel a high or even moderate emotioanal need to know the answer to that question.
As an atheist my answer is I don't know and my emotional need to know is minimal. It would be cool if an answer was uncovered while I was still alive I however, don't feel a high or even moderate emotioanal need to know the answer to that question.
Tiano
would you like to read this introduction please then give me notice if you'd like to know more:
Take a look around you from where you sit. You will notice that everything in the room is "made": the walls, the upholstery, the ceiling, the chair where you sit, the booklet you hold in your hand, the glass on the table and countless other details. None of them happen to exist in your room of their own accord. Even the simple loops of the carpet were made by someone: they did not appear spontaneously or by chance.
A person who is about to read a book knows that it has been written by an author for a specific reason. It would not even occur to him that this book might have come into being by chance. In the same manner, a person who sees a sculpture has no doubt whatsoever that it was made by a sculptor. And not just works of art: even a few bricks resting on top of one another make one think that they must have been brought to rest just so by someone within a certain plan. Therefore, everywhere where there is an order - either small or big - a founder and protector of this order must also exist. If, one day, somebody came forward and said that raw iron and coal came together to form steel by chance, which in turn constructed the Eiffel Tower again by chance, would not he and those who believed him be regarded as insane?
The claim of the theory of evolution, the unique method of denying the existence of God, is no different from this. According to the theory, lifeless atoms formed amino acids by chance, amino acids formed proteins by chance, and finally proteins formed living creatures again by chance. However, the probability of a living creature being formed by coincidence is less than the probability of the Eiffel Tower being formed in the same manner, because even the simplest living cell is more sophisticated than any man-made structure in the world.
How is it possible to think that the balance in the world came about by coincidence when the extraordinary harmony of nature is observable even with the naked eye? It is the most unreasonable claim to say that the universe, each point of which suggests the existence of its Creator, has come into being on its own.
Therefore, there should be a designer of the balance visible everywhere from our body to the farthest corners of the inconceivably vast universe. So, who is this Creator that ordained everything so subtly and created all?
He cannot be any material being present within the universe, because His must be a will that existed before the universe and created the universe therewith. The Almighty Creator is One in Whom everything finds existence, yet Whose existence is without any beginning or end.
Religion teaches us the identity of our Creator Whose existence we discover with our reason. Through what He has revealed to us as religion, we know that He is God, the Compassionate and the Merciful, Who created the heavens and the earth from nothing.
Although most people have the capability to grasp this fact, they spend their lives unaware of it. When they look at a landscape painting, they wonder who its painter is. Later, they praise the artist at length for his beautiful work of art. Despite the fact that they face numerous originals of the natural world he painted the moment they turn around, they still disregard the existence of God, Who is the only owner of all these beauties. In truth, no lengthy research is needed to understand the existence of God. Even if one of us had to live in a room from the time he was born, countless pieces of evidence in this room alone would be enough for him to grasp the existence of God.
The human body so overflows with evidence that it could not be contained in many multi-volumed encyclopaedias. Giving only a few minutes of conscientious thought to it all is enough to understand the existence of God. The present order is protected by God and maintained by Him.
The human body is not the only food for thought. Life abides in every square millimetre of the earth, be it observable by men or not. The world overflows with many living beings, from unicellular organisms to plants, from insects to sea animals, and from birds to human beings. If you take a handful of soil and look at it, even therein you can discover manifold living creatures with diverse characteristics. The same is true also for the air you breathe. Even on your skin, there are many living creatures whose names are unknown to you. In the intestines of all living beings are millions of bacteria or unicellular organisms that help digestion. The animal population in the world is many times greater than the human population. When we also consider the plant world, we see that there is not a single spot on the earth where there is no life. All of these creatures that are spread over an area of millions of square kilometres have different body systems, different lives and different contributions to the ecological balance. It is preposterous to claim that all these have come into existence by chance with no aim or purpose. No living being has come to exist through its own accord or effort. No coincidental happening can ever result in such complicated systems.
All of this evidence leads us to the conclusion that the universe works with a certain "consciousness". What, then, is the source of this consciousness? Surely it is neither the living nor the non-living beings in it. Nor can they be the ones that maintain the harmony and preserve the order. The existence and glory of God reveals itself in countless proofs in the universe. In fact, there is not even a single man on the earth who will not accept this evident reality from the heart. Yet they still deny it "in iniquity and arrogance, though their souls are convinced thereof" as stated in the Qur'an. (The Qur'an, 27:14)
This booklet is written to point out the reality from which some people turn away because their interests are at odds with it, and also to disclose the frauds and senseless deductions on which some systems of thought are based. This is why many diverse subjects are tackled in the booklet.
Those who read this booklet will once more see the indisputable evidence of God's existence and witness that God's existence encompasses all things: the "reason" knows this. Just as He has created this all-pervading order, He is the One Who also maintains it incessantly.
would you like to read this introduction please then give me notice if you'd like to know more:
Take a look around you from where you sit. You will notice that everything in the room is "made": the walls, the upholstery, the ceiling, the chair where you sit, the booklet you hold in your hand, the glass on the table and countless other details. None of them happen to exist in your room of their own accord. Even the simple loops of the carpet were made by someone: they did not appear spontaneously or by chance.
A person who is about to read a book knows that it has been written by an author for a specific reason. It would not even occur to him that this book might have come into being by chance. In the same manner, a person who sees a sculpture has no doubt whatsoever that it was made by a sculptor. And not just works of art: even a few bricks resting on top of one another make one think that they must have been brought to rest just so by someone within a certain plan. Therefore, everywhere where there is an order - either small or big - a founder and protector of this order must also exist. If, one day, somebody came forward and said that raw iron and coal came together to form steel by chance, which in turn constructed the Eiffel Tower again by chance, would not he and those who believed him be regarded as insane?
The claim of the theory of evolution, the unique method of denying the existence of God, is no different from this. According to the theory, lifeless atoms formed amino acids by chance, amino acids formed proteins by chance, and finally proteins formed living creatures again by chance. However, the probability of a living creature being formed by coincidence is less than the probability of the Eiffel Tower being formed in the same manner, because even the simplest living cell is more sophisticated than any man-made structure in the world.
How is it possible to think that the balance in the world came about by coincidence when the extraordinary harmony of nature is observable even with the naked eye? It is the most unreasonable claim to say that the universe, each point of which suggests the existence of its Creator, has come into being on its own.
Therefore, there should be a designer of the balance visible everywhere from our body to the farthest corners of the inconceivably vast universe. So, who is this Creator that ordained everything so subtly and created all?
He cannot be any material being present within the universe, because His must be a will that existed before the universe and created the universe therewith. The Almighty Creator is One in Whom everything finds existence, yet Whose existence is without any beginning or end.
Religion teaches us the identity of our Creator Whose existence we discover with our reason. Through what He has revealed to us as religion, we know that He is God, the Compassionate and the Merciful, Who created the heavens and the earth from nothing.
Although most people have the capability to grasp this fact, they spend their lives unaware of it. When they look at a landscape painting, they wonder who its painter is. Later, they praise the artist at length for his beautiful work of art. Despite the fact that they face numerous originals of the natural world he painted the moment they turn around, they still disregard the existence of God, Who is the only owner of all these beauties. In truth, no lengthy research is needed to understand the existence of God. Even if one of us had to live in a room from the time he was born, countless pieces of evidence in this room alone would be enough for him to grasp the existence of God.
The human body so overflows with evidence that it could not be contained in many multi-volumed encyclopaedias. Giving only a few minutes of conscientious thought to it all is enough to understand the existence of God. The present order is protected by God and maintained by Him.
The human body is not the only food for thought. Life abides in every square millimetre of the earth, be it observable by men or not. The world overflows with many living beings, from unicellular organisms to plants, from insects to sea animals, and from birds to human beings. If you take a handful of soil and look at it, even therein you can discover manifold living creatures with diverse characteristics. The same is true also for the air you breathe. Even on your skin, there are many living creatures whose names are unknown to you. In the intestines of all living beings are millions of bacteria or unicellular organisms that help digestion. The animal population in the world is many times greater than the human population. When we also consider the plant world, we see that there is not a single spot on the earth where there is no life. All of these creatures that are spread over an area of millions of square kilometres have different body systems, different lives and different contributions to the ecological balance. It is preposterous to claim that all these have come into existence by chance with no aim or purpose. No living being has come to exist through its own accord or effort. No coincidental happening can ever result in such complicated systems.
All of this evidence leads us to the conclusion that the universe works with a certain "consciousness". What, then, is the source of this consciousness? Surely it is neither the living nor the non-living beings in it. Nor can they be the ones that maintain the harmony and preserve the order. The existence and glory of God reveals itself in countless proofs in the universe. In fact, there is not even a single man on the earth who will not accept this evident reality from the heart. Yet they still deny it "in iniquity and arrogance, though their souls are convinced thereof" as stated in the Qur'an. (The Qur'an, 27:14)
This booklet is written to point out the reality from which some people turn away because their interests are at odds with it, and also to disclose the frauds and senseless deductions on which some systems of thought are based. This is why many diverse subjects are tackled in the booklet.
Those who read this booklet will once more see the indisputable evidence of God's existence and witness that God's existence encompasses all things: the "reason" knows this. Just as He has created this all-pervading order, He is the One Who also maintains it incessantly.
Ormiston
Well-Known Member
maty said:
This entire argument is inconsistent with nature and the Earth in general. Everything around us that is man-made is obviously man-made to us because we are men. It's simple to recognise designs that we are familiar with. However, according to your argument, it is equally obvious that a rock was made with a design in mind or that a cloud is obviously made by "someone". You also fail to include the possibility that something other than "chance" or God is responsible for life and/or evolution. It is entirely possible (and likely, IMO) that the universe we exist in produces life on it's own. That just as stars are "born" because of natural laws, ie. gravity, that life forms commonly from similiar laws or effects. The "obvious" nature of your vision exists in your head. I don't recomend relying on your feelings when attempting to tackle complicated philosophical/scientific issues.
Ormiston
In 1929, the American astronomer Edwin Hubble, working at the California Mount Wilson observatory, made one of the most important discoveries in the history of astronomy. Observing a number of stars through his huge telescope, he discovered that their light was shifted towards the red end of the spectrum and, crucially, that this shift was directly related to the distance of the stars from earth. This discovery had an electrifying effect in the world of science, because according to the recognized rules of physics, the spectra of light beams travelling towards the point of observation tend towards violet while the spectra of light beams moving away from the point of observation tend towards red. During Hubble's observations, the light from stars was discovered to tend towards red. This meant that they were constantly moving away from us. .
Before long, Hubble made another important discovery; The stars weren't just racing away from Earth; they were racing away from each other as well. The only conclusion that could be derived from a universe where everything moves away from everything else is that the universe constantly "expands".
To better understand, the universe can be thought of as the surface of a balloon being blown up. Just as the points on the surface of a balloon move apart from each other as the balloon is inflated, so do the objects in space move apart from each other as the universe keeps expanding.
In fact, this had been theoretically discovered even earlier. Albert Einstein, who is considered the greatest scientist of the century, had concluded after the calculations he made in theoretical physics that the universe could not be static. However, he had laid his discovery to rest simply not to conflict with the widely recognised static universe model of his time. Later on, Einstein was to identify his act as "the greatest mistake of his career". Subsequently, it became definite by Hubble's observations, that the universe expands.
What importance, then, did the fact that the universe expands have on the existence of the universe?
The expansion of the universe implied that if it could travel backwards in time, the universe would prove to have originated from a single point. The calculations showed that this "single point" that harboured all the matter of the universe should have "zero volume" and "infinite density". The universe had come about by the explosion of this single point with zero volume. This great explosion that marked the beginning of the universe was named the "Big Bang" and the theory started to be so called.
Research has shown that stars and galaxies move awayfrom us and from one another, that is, the universe expands. This suggests that when moved backwards in time, the universe proves to have started from a single point.
It has to be stated that "zero volume" is a theoretical expression used for descriptive purposes. Science can define the concept of "nothingness", which is beyond the limits of human comprehension, only by expressing it as "a point with zero volume". In truth, "a point with no volume" means "nothingness". The universe has come into being from nothingness. In other words, it was created.
God has informed us of this reality in the Qur'an revealed 1,400 years ago:
It is We who have built the universe with (Our creative) power, and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it. (The Qur'an, 51:47)
In 1929, the American astronomer Edwin Hubble, working at the California Mount Wilson observatory, made one of the most important discoveries in the history of astronomy. Observing a number of stars through his huge telescope, he discovered that their light was shifted towards the red end of the spectrum and, crucially, that this shift was directly related to the distance of the stars from earth. This discovery had an electrifying effect in the world of science, because according to the recognized rules of physics, the spectra of light beams travelling towards the point of observation tend towards violet while the spectra of light beams moving away from the point of observation tend towards red. During Hubble's observations, the light from stars was discovered to tend towards red. This meant that they were constantly moving away from us. .
Before long, Hubble made another important discovery; The stars weren't just racing away from Earth; they were racing away from each other as well. The only conclusion that could be derived from a universe where everything moves away from everything else is that the universe constantly "expands".
To better understand, the universe can be thought of as the surface of a balloon being blown up. Just as the points on the surface of a balloon move apart from each other as the balloon is inflated, so do the objects in space move apart from each other as the universe keeps expanding.
In fact, this had been theoretically discovered even earlier. Albert Einstein, who is considered the greatest scientist of the century, had concluded after the calculations he made in theoretical physics that the universe could not be static. However, he had laid his discovery to rest simply not to conflict with the widely recognised static universe model of his time. Later on, Einstein was to identify his act as "the greatest mistake of his career". Subsequently, it became definite by Hubble's observations, that the universe expands.
What importance, then, did the fact that the universe expands have on the existence of the universe?
The expansion of the universe implied that if it could travel backwards in time, the universe would prove to have originated from a single point. The calculations showed that this "single point" that harboured all the matter of the universe should have "zero volume" and "infinite density". The universe had come about by the explosion of this single point with zero volume. This great explosion that marked the beginning of the universe was named the "Big Bang" and the theory started to be so called.
Research has shown that stars and galaxies move awayfrom us and from one another, that is, the universe expands. This suggests that when moved backwards in time, the universe proves to have started from a single point.
It has to be stated that "zero volume" is a theoretical expression used for descriptive purposes. Science can define the concept of "nothingness", which is beyond the limits of human comprehension, only by expressing it as "a point with zero volume". In truth, "a point with no volume" means "nothingness". The universe has come into being from nothingness. In other words, it was created.
God has informed us of this reality in the Qur'an revealed 1,400 years ago:
It is We who have built the universe with (Our creative) power, and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it. (The Qur'an, 51:47)
Ormiston
Well-Known Member
maty said:
The singularity is only a small part of Big Bang theory. The fact that the universe was smaller at one time does not necessitate that it "came from nothingness". Even if it did, how does a loose coincidence between a scientific theory and the Qur'an get us any closer to the origins of life? Why even mention the Qur'an in a thread addressed to atheists?
Take this example too:
Assume that you set up a big city by bringing millions of sets of Lego together. Let there be in this city skyscrapers, twisting roads, railway stations, airports, shopping malls, subways and also rivers, lakes, forests and a beach. Let there also be living in it thousands of people wandering in its streets, sitting in their homes and working in their offices. Take every detail into account. Even the traffic lights, box offices, and the signboards at the bus stations.
If someone came up to you and said that all the pieces of Lego of this city, which you had founded by planning it right down to the smallest detail, and each piece of which you had picked up and placed with great care and precision, had been brought together by sheer accident to produce this city, what would you think of the mental state of that person?
Now, go back to the city you have built and consider that the whole city would be levelled to the ground if you had forgotten to put into place even a single Lego, or changed its place. Can you imagine what great balance and order you have had to establish?
Life in the world where we live is also made possible by the accumulation of such a great number of details incomprehensible to the human mind. The absence of even one of these details might mean the end of life on the earth.
Everything, every detail from the atom, the smallest unit of matter, to the galaxies harbouring billions of stars, from the moon, an inseparable adjunct of the world, to the solar system - all work in perfect harmony. This well-organised system runs flawlessly, just like a watch. People are so confident that this billions-of-years-old system will go on functioning without leaving out even the smallest detail that they can freely make plans about something they think will be realised in the next 10 years. No one is worried about whether the sun will rise the next day. A great majority of people do not think about "whether the world may ever chance to break free from the gravitation of the sun and start to move towards the unknown in the pitch-dark space"; or ask "What keeps this from happening?"
In the same manner, when people are about to sleep, they are very confident that their hearts or respiratory systems will not relax as their brains do. However, even a few seconds' halt in any one of these two vital systems may well cause results that will cost one's life.
When the "glasses of familiarity" which surround the whole of life and cause every event to be assessed as if 'it is taking place in its natural course' are taken off, one is free to see that everything is made up of such closely interdependent, meticulously planned systems that it is as if we were hanging on to life by the skin of our teeth. You notice an excellent order prevailing in every spot you turn your eyes on. Certainly, there is a great power that creates such an order and harmony. The possessor of this great power is God, Who created everything out of nothing. In a verse of the Qur'an, it is said:
He Who has created seven heavens in full harmony with one another: no incongruity will you see in the creation of the Most Gracious. And turn your vision (upon it) once more: can you see any flaw? Yea, turn your vision (upon it) again and yet again: (and every time) your vision will fall back upon you, dazzled and truly defeated. (The Qur'an, 67:3-4)
When we look at the phenomena in the heavens, on the earth and in all that lies between them, we see that they all prove the existence of their Creator in their own right. In this chapter, we are going to dwell on the natural phenomena and living beings that every one sees, yet never thinks about, and how they have come into being and continue their existence. If we were to write down all the signs of God in the universe, they would fill many thousands of volumes of encyclopaedias. Therefore, in this chapter, we will only deal briefly with some subjects that deserve to be pondered upon at length.
However, even these brief mentions will help the conscientious "men of understanding" to notice the most important fact of their lives or at least will help them remember it once again.
For God Exists.
Assume that you set up a big city by bringing millions of sets of Lego together. Let there be in this city skyscrapers, twisting roads, railway stations, airports, shopping malls, subways and also rivers, lakes, forests and a beach. Let there also be living in it thousands of people wandering in its streets, sitting in their homes and working in their offices. Take every detail into account. Even the traffic lights, box offices, and the signboards at the bus stations.
If someone came up to you and said that all the pieces of Lego of this city, which you had founded by planning it right down to the smallest detail, and each piece of which you had picked up and placed with great care and precision, had been brought together by sheer accident to produce this city, what would you think of the mental state of that person?
Now, go back to the city you have built and consider that the whole city would be levelled to the ground if you had forgotten to put into place even a single Lego, or changed its place. Can you imagine what great balance and order you have had to establish?
Life in the world where we live is also made possible by the accumulation of such a great number of details incomprehensible to the human mind. The absence of even one of these details might mean the end of life on the earth.
Everything, every detail from the atom, the smallest unit of matter, to the galaxies harbouring billions of stars, from the moon, an inseparable adjunct of the world, to the solar system - all work in perfect harmony. This well-organised system runs flawlessly, just like a watch. People are so confident that this billions-of-years-old system will go on functioning without leaving out even the smallest detail that they can freely make plans about something they think will be realised in the next 10 years. No one is worried about whether the sun will rise the next day. A great majority of people do not think about "whether the world may ever chance to break free from the gravitation of the sun and start to move towards the unknown in the pitch-dark space"; or ask "What keeps this from happening?"
In the same manner, when people are about to sleep, they are very confident that their hearts or respiratory systems will not relax as their brains do. However, even a few seconds' halt in any one of these two vital systems may well cause results that will cost one's life.
When the "glasses of familiarity" which surround the whole of life and cause every event to be assessed as if 'it is taking place in its natural course' are taken off, one is free to see that everything is made up of such closely interdependent, meticulously planned systems that it is as if we were hanging on to life by the skin of our teeth. You notice an excellent order prevailing in every spot you turn your eyes on. Certainly, there is a great power that creates such an order and harmony. The possessor of this great power is God, Who created everything out of nothing. In a verse of the Qur'an, it is said:
He Who has created seven heavens in full harmony with one another: no incongruity will you see in the creation of the Most Gracious. And turn your vision (upon it) once more: can you see any flaw? Yea, turn your vision (upon it) again and yet again: (and every time) your vision will fall back upon you, dazzled and truly defeated. (The Qur'an, 67:3-4)
When we look at the phenomena in the heavens, on the earth and in all that lies between them, we see that they all prove the existence of their Creator in their own right. In this chapter, we are going to dwell on the natural phenomena and living beings that every one sees, yet never thinks about, and how they have come into being and continue their existence. If we were to write down all the signs of God in the universe, they would fill many thousands of volumes of encyclopaedias. Therefore, in this chapter, we will only deal briefly with some subjects that deserve to be pondered upon at length.
However, even these brief mentions will help the conscientious "men of understanding" to notice the most important fact of their lives or at least will help them remember it once again.
For God Exists.
Ormiston
Well-Known Member
maty said:
And how do you KNOW this? Is it simply faith or did you arrive at this conclusion on your own? If you discovered this, how did discover it?
I don't know if there is a creator or not. I'm curious but not overly concerned. Do you believe that a creator is necessary for the creation of a snowflake? Or did the creator simply put the wheels in motion?
pandamonk
Active Member
Ok, so you're saying that the fact that the universe came from "nothingness" proves that there must be a god? How the hell does it prove there must be a god? Surely god would have also had to have had "something" to work with to make the universe. So, like humans he coudn't make something out of nothing. Everything that is built, is build from materials/something else. So your "nothingness" argument does nothing of the sort to prove that a god exists. Also, if we are so complicated to need a creater, then surely the creator must be much more complicated, and would also NEED a creator. 'Cause, like your eiffel tower being so much simpler than a simple cell, we must be so much simpler than the simplest part of a god. That means that if we Must Need a creator, then a god MUST also NEED a creator. None of your arguments hold ground :slap:maty said:
Thanks again to all who have contributed here, especially maty for the lengthy points made, which also run along side some of the theories or relate to, some of the kinds of theories that do make me believe in a God as a creator.
I thought I'd put the original two posts up seperately, in the early hours of yesterday morning and didnt realise till viewing now that they were in the same link.
Although the first part was addressed to Atheists, I also added on the second part (the skills bit, I think) that the questions were also open to believers too.
I can understand everyone's views that were mentioned and its pretty much impossible to prove or disprove and thats kind of what makes religion a faith. I do love to hear peoples theories though ( why I don't know, as they just seem to further batter my head ! )
The very valid question was raised at some point of, ' who then made god ' and its a question I often think about but unfortunately, I don't know either and realise how questionable the thought that there is a god actually is.
I do believe we are just energy and in a body and the body is either different kinds of energy that combine to make the body or a reaction caused by energy that then creates the matter for a body and even the solid/material world ( including the body, trees, metals,rocks, water etc )
I think its been scientifically proven we are just energy and through personally experiencing an out of body experience, I truly believe we are just energy and that the material world is an illussion.
I didnt realise I was having an OBE at first ( I'd gone to sleep and just became aware of being stood up at the side of the bed) and I remember it being really dark in the room so I went to turn on the light and I was conscious of every aspect and thought just the same as I usually do think when going to turn on the light.
My hand then just went through the light switch and wall (and I realised as I went to turn on the light that my arm and hand were kind of misty looking as well ).
I won't go right into detail of the OBE as I think I've mentioned it in another post on the site but from just the bits I've mentioned it proved to me that we are just energy and the body is temporary.
I was fully aware of being conscious and thinking as I normally would do in the normal state ( in body) but was just in a misty energy form, so to me that proved that this energy that we are, is a conscious energy.
Humans are at different levels of intelligence, people like Einstein must somehow be, in my eyes, a higher level of energy OR connect better to a higher form of energy, to have more intellect.
That said, its also believed that Einsteins brain was bigger than usual, so maybe it was something to do with a higher level of energy produced by the extra brainwaves he would have had over other people, that helped create his superior intelligence.
To me God would also be a form of energy and THE highest form of energy.(Maybe thats how we are in his image?)
Its only a theory which my personal experiences have led me to relate to but through the experiences I've had it to me does make sense to me. This would also make sense to me the saying that God sees and hears all.
If God was a conscious mass of energy, this could enable him to be able to be everywhere at once in the world, just like elements of the atmosphere are all over the world, except in Gods case it would be the whole universe and beyond that if he did create it.
To someone who doesn't believe in OBEs or that we are energy ( I also see peoples aura from time to time too which adds extra belief to me ), this will just seem as bizarre as any other theory can be and just as lacking in evidence.
Anyone who has had an OBE will have more of an understanding though and may make more sense of my belief.
My belief is only what it is now, NOW. Maybe more experiences in the future will further sway my thoughts, time and experiences do indeed do that to us.
I'm also sure that someone will come along and blow my theory well away and get me off thinking again, so please commence....
I thought I'd put the original two posts up seperately, in the early hours of yesterday morning and didnt realise till viewing now that they were in the same link.
Although the first part was addressed to Atheists, I also added on the second part (the skills bit, I think) that the questions were also open to believers too.
I can understand everyone's views that were mentioned and its pretty much impossible to prove or disprove and thats kind of what makes religion a faith. I do love to hear peoples theories though ( why I don't know, as they just seem to further batter my head ! )
The very valid question was raised at some point of, ' who then made god ' and its a question I often think about but unfortunately, I don't know either and realise how questionable the thought that there is a god actually is.
I do believe we are just energy and in a body and the body is either different kinds of energy that combine to make the body or a reaction caused by energy that then creates the matter for a body and even the solid/material world ( including the body, trees, metals,rocks, water etc )
I think its been scientifically proven we are just energy and through personally experiencing an out of body experience, I truly believe we are just energy and that the material world is an illussion.
I didnt realise I was having an OBE at first ( I'd gone to sleep and just became aware of being stood up at the side of the bed) and I remember it being really dark in the room so I went to turn on the light and I was conscious of every aspect and thought just the same as I usually do think when going to turn on the light.
My hand then just went through the light switch and wall (and I realised as I went to turn on the light that my arm and hand were kind of misty looking as well ).
I won't go right into detail of the OBE as I think I've mentioned it in another post on the site but from just the bits I've mentioned it proved to me that we are just energy and the body is temporary.
I was fully aware of being conscious and thinking as I normally would do in the normal state ( in body) but was just in a misty energy form, so to me that proved that this energy that we are, is a conscious energy.
Humans are at different levels of intelligence, people like Einstein must somehow be, in my eyes, a higher level of energy OR connect better to a higher form of energy, to have more intellect.
That said, its also believed that Einsteins brain was bigger than usual, so maybe it was something to do with a higher level of energy produced by the extra brainwaves he would have had over other people, that helped create his superior intelligence.
To me God would also be a form of energy and THE highest form of energy.(Maybe thats how we are in his image?)
Its only a theory which my personal experiences have led me to relate to but through the experiences I've had it to me does make sense to me. This would also make sense to me the saying that God sees and hears all.
If God was a conscious mass of energy, this could enable him to be able to be everywhere at once in the world, just like elements of the atmosphere are all over the world, except in Gods case it would be the whole universe and beyond that if he did create it.
To someone who doesn't believe in OBEs or that we are energy ( I also see peoples aura from time to time too which adds extra belief to me ), this will just seem as bizarre as any other theory can be and just as lacking in evidence.
Anyone who has had an OBE will have more of an understanding though and may make more sense of my belief.
My belief is only what it is now, NOW. Maybe more experiences in the future will further sway my thoughts, time and experiences do indeed do that to us.
I'm also sure that someone will come along and blow my theory well away and get me off thinking again, so please commence....
pandamonk
Active Member
OBE? Ok i read something about this a while back. It was about this brain surgeon who dealt with mostly epileptic patients. In his operations, the people who are being operated on have to be awake so that he doesn't go to far in the removal of the bad tissue. Ok so as an experiment in a number of the operations, he would touch a certain part of the brain, and the patients would start saying that they feel themselves leaving their body. After the operations all the patients were sure that they'd had and OBe, but inface it was just because this certain part of the brain was stimulated. This may be the reason for your OBE(something had naturally stimulated your brain, ie epilepcy), another may be that you were dreaming, or hallucinating. May i also ask, were you on any drugs at the time:areyoucra ? lol sorry had to ask.tiano said:Thanks again to all who have contributed here, especially maty for the lengthy points made, which also run along side some of the theories or relate to, some of the kinds of theories that do make me believe in a God as a creator.
I thought I'd put the original two posts up seperately, in the early hours of yesterday morning and didnt realise till viewing now that they were in the same link.
Although the first part was addressed to Atheists, I also added on the second part (the skills bit, I think) that the questions were also open to believers too.
I can understand everyone's views that were mentioned and its pretty much impossible to prove or disprove and thats kind of what makes religion a faith. I do love to hear peoples theories though ( why I don't know, as they just seem to further batter my head ! )
The very valid question was raised at some point of, ' who then made god ' and its a question I often think about but unfortunately, I don't know either and realise how questionable the thought that there is a god actually is.
I do believe we are just energy and in a body and the body is either different kinds of energy that combine to make the body or a reaction caused by energy that then creates the matter for a body and even the solid/material world ( including the body, trees, metals,rocks, water etc )
I think its been scientifically proven we are just energy and through personally experiencing an out of body experience, I truly believe we are just energy and that the material world is an illussion.
I didnt realise I was having an OBE at first ( I'd gone to sleep and just became aware of being stood up at the side of the bed) and I remember it being really dark in the room so I went to turn on the light and I was conscious of every aspect and thought just the same as I usually do think when going to turn on the light.
My hand then just went through the light switch and wall (and I realised as I went to turn on the light that my arm and hand were kind of misty looking as well ).
I won't go right into detail of the OBE as I think I've mentioned it in another post on the site but from just the bits I've mentioned it proved to me that we are just energy and the body is temporary.
I was fully aware of being conscious and thinking as I normally would do in the normal state ( in body) but was just in a misty energy form, so to me that proved that this energy that we are, is a conscious energy.
Humans are at different levels of intelligence, people like Einstein must somehow be, in my eyes, a higher level of energy OR connect better to a higher form of energy, to have more intellect.
That said, its also believed that Einsteins brain was bigger than usual, so maybe it was something to do with a higher level of energy produced by the extra brainwaves he would have had over other people, that helped create his superior intelligence.
To me God would also be a form of energy and THE highest form of energy.(Maybe thats how we are in his image?)
Its only a theory which my personal experiences have led me to relate to but through the experiences I've had it to me does make sense to me. This would also make sense to me the saying that God sees and hears all.
If God was a conscious mass of energy, this could enable him to be able to be everywhere at once in the world, just like elements of the atmosphere are all over the world, except in Gods case it would be the whole universe and beyond that if he did create it.
To someone who doesn't believe in OBEs or that we are energy ( I also see peoples aura from time to time too which adds extra belief to me ), this will just seem as bizarre as any other theory can be and just as lacking in evidence.
Anyone who has had an OBE will have more of an understanding though and may make more sense of my belief.
My belief is only what it is now, NOW. Maybe more experiences in the future will further sway my thoughts, time and experiences do indeed do that to us.
I'm also sure that someone will come along and blow my theory well away and get me off thinking again, so please commence....
Maybe your visions of aura, are due to your want for it to be true, your want that is so much that the suggestion that aura can be seen by a certain few has caused your brain to hallucinate these visions. I don't know, these are just my suggestions from a skeptical view point. :takeabow:
Ãsahættr
Active Member
maty said:
Actually, things do not work in such perfect harmony as you describe. It's just that the chaos happens on a time scale that we can't appreciate. Try watching the Solar System over a period of billions and billions of years and say if you feel so safe.
http://www.fortunecity.com/emachines/e11/86/solarsys.html#
maty said:
And this is explained firstly by evolution. Our hearts and respiratory systems work so well because millions of years ago, those organisms whose systems were unreliable died before they could reproduce. So today, we have all evolved to have reliable organs.
Also, consider the fact that we do all, in the end, die. Now you're arguing that the fact that our bodies work so well shows that they were made by a creator. But what standards are you using to judge what qualifies as "working very well?" They're not perfect, they give up after about 80 years. Now, if they never gave up, that would be evidence of a creator.
Hi Pandamonk,
I'm not epileptic and I wasn't on drugs when I had this experience either .
If it was a dream, I've never ever had one like it since or before even and it really didnt seem like a dream in any sense of the word. I explained my experience on a few forums and people came back and said it sounded very much like an OBE. Also the after effects of having pain briefly after feeling a struggle on re entering my body, pins and needles, not being able to stand on my feet despite trying and collapsing at the side of my bed after ' waking or re entering my body ', were all features of an OBE ( I was told )
In regards to the aura, I don't walk around thinking I hope I see someones aura. From an early age I always sensed peoples auras, kind of like bumping into someone then noticing they are actually a few feet away from you. I've seen auras quite a few times, sometimes its just an energy and not colour that hangs in the air around the person and say they move the energy hangs in the air then moves in the same direction as the person, like a delayed reaction.
I also saw a shamanic healer and medium once and during her speaking to me I sort of went into a mild trance (thats the best way I can describe it though it wasn't a trance as such, but a different state of mind) and there I noticed one side of purple down her right side.
I said to her I'd just has this strange feeling and it was a kind of trippy experince and that I saw purple down her side, she said wait till after the sitting and she's show me something.
I went downstairs with her afterwards and she told me to look at this photo, which was an aura photo taken at a spiritual place somewhere, anyway, all down her right side was purple, just as I'd seen, she said I'd seen her aura.
Your entitled to think as you wish but all the psychologists opinions in the world mean very little to anyone who have experiences theirselves. I don't doubt that some people may have similar experiences under influenced or controlled situations but its happened far too many times and in too many situations for me to doubt that I've had this happen for real.
I'm also a reiki and spiritual healer and I've no doubt the psychologists have an explanation for the heat generated through this process and the pain going in people or the lack of bleeding after a cut through a fall, once I've started healing and the flow of blood stops or slows dramatically in a few seconds. I've read of tumours in animals being shrunk to insignificance through Reiki but I bet science says it was a natural process through some reaction. ( I believe its God using people as a channel )
Psychologists and scientists do love to have an answer for everything and its great that they challenge and try to disprove things, as I'm sure there are many cases that can be claimed yet disproved but very few actually admit it when they are truly baffled by something happenning before them, that they can't explain.
Science doesn't know everything. Remember,it wasn't that long ago they thought the world was flat and earth was the centre of the universe and everything revolved around earth and not the sun.
But skepticism is healthy in general and works to also prove things are stranger than fiction as well as debunking them too.
I'm not epileptic and I wasn't on drugs when I had this experience either
. If it was a dream, I've never ever had one like it since or before even and it really didnt seem like a dream in any sense of the word. I explained my experience on a few forums and people came back and said it sounded very much like an OBE. Also the after effects of having pain briefly after feeling a struggle on re entering my body, pins and needles, not being able to stand on my feet despite trying and collapsing at the side of my bed after ' waking or re entering my body ', were all features of an OBE ( I was told )
In regards to the aura, I don't walk around thinking I hope I see someones aura. From an early age I always sensed peoples auras, kind of like bumping into someone then noticing they are actually a few feet away from you. I've seen auras quite a few times, sometimes its just an energy and not colour that hangs in the air around the person and say they move the energy hangs in the air then moves in the same direction as the person, like a delayed reaction.
I also saw a shamanic healer and medium once and during her speaking to me I sort of went into a mild trance (thats the best way I can describe it though it wasn't a trance as such, but a different state of mind) and there I noticed one side of purple down her right side.
I said to her I'd just has this strange feeling and it was a kind of trippy experince and that I saw purple down her side, she said wait till after the sitting and she's show me something.
I went downstairs with her afterwards and she told me to look at this photo, which was an aura photo taken at a spiritual place somewhere, anyway, all down her right side was purple, just as I'd seen, she said I'd seen her aura.
Your entitled to think as you wish but all the psychologists opinions in the world mean very little to anyone who have experiences theirselves. I don't doubt that some people may have similar experiences under influenced or controlled situations but its happened far too many times and in too many situations for me to doubt that I've had this happen for real.
I'm also a reiki and spiritual healer and I've no doubt the psychologists have an explanation for the heat generated through this process and the pain going in people or the lack of bleeding after a cut through a fall, once I've started healing and the flow of blood stops or slows dramatically in a few seconds. I've read of tumours in animals being shrunk to insignificance through Reiki but I bet science says it was a natural process through some reaction. ( I believe its God using people as a channel )
Psychologists and scientists do love to have an answer for everything and its great that they challenge and try to disprove things, as I'm sure there are many cases that can be claimed yet disproved but very few actually admit it when they are truly baffled by something happenning before them, that they can't explain.
Science doesn't know everything. Remember,it wasn't that long ago they thought the world was flat and earth was the centre of the universe and everything revolved around earth and not the sun.
But skepticism is healthy in general and works to also prove things are stranger than fiction as well as debunking them too.