Atheists - how did you come to be?

[Bunyip]

Ah, but your consciousness it is quite obvious, resides within you. It is almost a separate organism, a completely transferable phenomenon, for if you were to wake up in the body of another it is merely a changing of your point of view.

No. It is not transferrable - that is absurd. It is not in any way a 'seperate organism' it is a product of my physical brain and nobody has ever shown it can be 'transferable'.

Do you argue that your awareness merely springs from your brain, that mind and brain are one?

Mind is a product of the physical brain, that is a fact. Damage the brain and the mind changes.

Sure, the brain is the hardware that turns the power on, but what comes on is clearly an operator of it.

Clearly? Well no, it is clear that our consciousness is a product of a physical brain.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

No. It is not transferrable - that is absurd. It is not in any way a 'seperate organism' it is a product of my physical brain and nobody has ever shown it can be 'transferable'.

People reading this 1000 years from now will probably disagree. But take for example amnesia, one forgetting everything that came before. That is the closest example I can give you, the person who suffers this and recovers completely is pretty much someone else are they not?

Mind is a product of the physical brain, that is a fact. Damage the brain and the mind changes.

True, but as I said the hardware interfaces with the operator, and the operator cannot sit in a broken chair, or do much when the radar goes out.

Clearly? Well no, it is clear that our consciousness is a product of a physical brain.

How limited is it? It is just so clear to me that it is an input of some kind. You could literally plug it into anything if you had the correct interface.

 

[Bunyip]

People reading this 1000 years from now will probably disagree. But take for example amnesia, one forgetting everything that came before. That is the closest example I can give you, the person who suffers this and recovers completely is pretty much someone else are they not?

In what way?

True, but as I said the hardware interfaces with the operator, and the operator cannot sit in a broken chair, or do much when the radar goes out.



How limited is it? It is just so clear to me that it is an input of some kind. You could literally plug it into anything if you had the correct interface.

Um...no. The consciousness will die the moment the physical brain is damaged, consciousness is a product of the mind, not a seperable quality.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

In what way?

Think about it, it is almost as if the person is born anew. It doesn't matter at all who they were before in a way, and the mind finds itself almost in a space almost completely foreign to it. Awaking from whatever trauma with the amnesia, one could find themselves in any situation imaginable, and as a side-note I wonder if that would also completely cure any previous neurosis one was experiencing.

Um...no. The consciousness will die the moment the physical brain is damaged, consciousnezs is a product of the mind, not a sperable quality.

What it may not have is a physical dimension, like the brain does. Imagine though, two people swapping minds. Can that be done? You'd argue no from what I gather, but the idea that the pilot only can drive one vehicle also can come under scrutiny. What makes you so sure that your whole personality cannot fit elsewhere?

 

[Bunyip]

Think about it, it is almost as if the person is born anew. It doesn't matter at all who they were before in a way, and the mind finds itself almost in a space almost completely foreign to it. Awaking from whatever trauma with the amnesia, one could find themselves in any situation imaginable, and as a side-note I wonder if that would also completely cure any previous neurosis one was experiencing.

Well that would seem to be a better example to argue against mind/brain dualism. The old consciousness is gone forever when the brain loses it's memory - the brain then produces a new consciousness unaware of the previous one. There is nothing to suggest that they are seperable.

What it may not have is a physical dimension, like the brain does. Imagine though, two people swapping minds. Can that be done?

No.

You'd argue no from what I gather, but the idea that the pilot only can drive one vehicle also can come under scrutiny. What makes you so sure that your whole personality cannot fit elsewhere?

Only that there is no evidence to suggest that it could, and a vast body of evidence to support the idea that mind is an inseperable product of the physical brain.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Well that would seem to be a better example to argue against mind/brain dualism. The old consciousness is gone forever when the brain loses it's memory - the brain then produces a new consciousness unaware of the previous one. There is nothing to suggest that they are seperable.

Ah, but it creates a new consciousness, or as I would argue, the consciousness descends from elsewhere rather than ascends, I suppose it may not immediately matter from whence it is abridged - yet notice that a brain cannot come from consciousness. And notice, that the new consciousness is really anew, a separable kind of event occurred there, the brain did not die from the loss of the old, but was separable from it. And where did it come from? Perhaps it is not a question of the chicken or the egg coming first, but the nest and the egg.

[Only that there is no evidence to suggest that it could, and a vast body of evidence to support the idea that mind is an inseperable product of the physical brain.

As computers get more advanced, they will most likely connect to the brain in ways never before seen. We are just at the beginning of actually understanding the brain, just imagine how that understanding will grow from here.

 

[Bunyip]

Seems simple to me.

Light is a product of the light bulb.
Mind is a product of the brain.

The mind does not come from elsewhere, it is a product of physical matter - the interactions of neurons. What makes you think it is seperable? What is the evidence for this seperability?

 

[LuisDantas]

Now honestly if you think about this hard enough, something about the fact that you came to be at all will strike you as bizarre.

Perhaps. But isn't that ultimately little more than evidence of how predisposed we are to project purpose and cause into things?

You know not what occurred before you became, nor do you know how this occurred, why, or ultimately where you are going.

Oh, I have a fairly good idea of where I am going. I do ignore quite a lot of things, but that is to be expected.

However, you can now definitively say that you are, you have become the singularity, your individual telos has found residence in the flesh of an animal.

"Singurality" is too strong a word, IMO. When push comes to shove we are all quite... fragile might be a good word.

Here you sit, reading this, converting light and color, shape and sound, sending a will to magically type your response. Fingertips and hands, to you alone they are enslaved. Your attention if divided can be trained into submission. You read this and wonder immediately what you can say to ameliorate the sudden existential discord, the fact that the curtain can be pulled on your certainty.

I must say, that is a very poor, inaccurate description of my existential life.

So how did you come to be? Was it karma, the negative and positive energies of your soul swirling in the firmament to reside in a host, was it a slighted god, molding you like craft-work.

I very much doubt it was either. I don't believe in atmans or souls either.

Was it a random conflux of hidden energies that happened with a probability never to be repeated, a quarky buildup of matter so random it would take a trillion dice?

That is quite some mistification, but let me point out that reality is largely chaotic, yet chaos is somewhat self-organizing by nature.

Most of reality is "so random (that) it would take a trillion dice (to model its events)". That just means that reality is "large", not that it is "unlikely".

Who's to say you will not immediately occur again when a new pilot is required for some random new brain in the universe.

Actually, I do.

For one thing, "I" am defined largely by my experiences, so true reincarnation (or "quantum cloning", if that is what you mean) is by definition impossible.

For another, there is no pilot, and there is no requirement either.

You seem to have a very hard time understanding an atheist's mindset.

Most likely that is what will happen. Once you land in an immortal coil as opposed to a mortal one, you might not have to keep reincarnating. Though I would argue at this stage that you are clearly constantly incarnating. You can say with certainty that you most likely had a long string of failures to find an immortal host, or if you ever could not age, you must have accidentally died.

I'm pretty sure I could never agree to this, but this is a particularly bizarre scenario you are describing. It does not seem to be a very exact match to the usual claims. Truly, I don't understand what you mean.

The only way you could stop coming to be is if there was never again a seat to be filled. You clearly were not in the very beginning, or most likely were not, but no vacant seat is left open when they are built. If there were a trillion situations where consciousness could reside and over time that was subtracted to nine hundred ninety-nine billion nine hundred ninety-nine million nine hundred ninety-nine thousand nine hundred ninety-nine, perhaps one less soul that kept recycling could exist, or their incarnation would be put on hold.

This I can make no sense of, and I don't really see a reason to try.

Of course no time would pass for the soul once it is waiting. And to finish, I myself am a atheist/agnostic, but I know this cannot be the first time I was, or is it likely it will be the last time I will be.

You may think of yourself as an atheist or agnostic, but you are very much not an skeptic - and I don't think you are really an atheist or agnostic either. At this point I am more interested in finding out why you would say that you are than in any of the other questions you are hinting at.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Perhaps. But isn't that ultimately little more than evidence of how predisposed we are to project purpose and cause into things?

This has nothing to do with purpose or cause. It might not have anything to do with karma or god at all, but just science.

Oh, I have a fairly good idea of where I am going. I do ignore quite a lot of things, but that is to be expected.

The time when you are not is equal to the time when you will not be, that it is to say, it is unknown. Similar circumstances arise where you could once again become, on this very earth.

"Singurality" is too strong a word, IMO. When push comes to shove we are all quite... fragile might be a good word.

Whatever kind of molecular convergence you are, it might be an important one since we can find no other life-forms so far anywhere else.

I must say, that is a very poor, inaccurate description of my existential life.

How so, do you have more powers I don't know about?

I very much doubt it was either. I don't believe in atmans or souls either.

That might not be necessary. In fact it probably isn't at all.

That is quite some mistification, but let me point out that reality is largely chaotic, yet chaos is somewhat self-organizing by nature.

Most of reality is "so random (that) it would take a trillion dice (to model its events)". That just means that reality is "large", not that it is "unlikely".

Well, let's get to the bottom of it. So many things on earth converged to make life, the nitrogen in the air, the oxygen in the sea, all of it seemed to have worked together!

Actually, I do.

For one thing, "I" am defined largely by my experiences, so true reincarnation (or "quantum cloning", if that is what you mean) is by definition impossible.

For another, there is no pilot, and there is no requirement either.

You seem to have a very hard time understanding an atheist's mindset.

So very certain you are of what you are experiencing, as I said, this may have nothing to do with theism anyway. Why so predisposed to label your experience here?

I'm pretty sure I could never agree to this, but this is a particularly bizarre scenario you are describing. It does not seem to be a very exact match to the usual claims. Truly, I don't understand what you mean.

I'm talking about a future human being that found the key to immortality, or maybe an alien that doesn't age. After your death you could wake up one of those, granted that we don't destroy the earth first or it doesn't destroy us. You see, the soul moves on a linear time-frame. Eventually you will wake up on a more advanced earth.

This I can make no sense of, and I don't really see a reason to try.

Very well.

You may think of yourself as an atheist or agnostic, but you are very much not an skeptic - and I don't think you are really an atheist or agnostic either. At this point I am more interested in finding out why you would say that you are than in any of the other questions you are hinting at.

As classical society degraded, only then did the philosophers become skeptics. Before this, an idea of a soul may have been entertained by many. Before it declined, only pythagoras took it to that extreme that may have rendered it into theism. Plato for example we should claim for our side.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Seems simple to me.

Light is a product of the light bulb.
Mind is a product of the brain.

The mind does not come from elsewhere, it is a product of physical matter - the interactions of neurons. What makes you think it is seperable? What is the evidence for this seperability?

You say it is a product! That alone is some kind of evidence.

 

[Yerda]

Now honestly if you think about this hard enough, something about the fact that you came to be at all will strike you as bizarre.

Can't believe how strange it is to be anything at all - Neutral Milk Hotel

The only coherent answers appear to be that the self is transcendent, or an illusion. I prefer the first, but the second looks more likely.

 

[Willamena]

So how did you come to be?

A single stray thought.

 

[Iti oj]

A single stray thought.

A question... That turned into many.

 

[savagewind]

I don't get it.

I came to be when my parents reproduced. I am a homo sapiens, a species of primate. Primates are a subset of the mammals that evolved here on earth.

I know how I came to be, my mum and dad had a child - I know how they came to be and so on back for billions of years.

Wait a minute! Somewhere back in the billion years organisms didn't reproduce sexually. I'm sure of it. Am I wrong?

 

[Bunyip]

Wait a minute! Somewhere back in the billion years organisms didn't reproduce sexually. I'm sure of it. Am I wrong?

I didn't specify sexual reproduction. Prior to sexual reproduction organisms still reproduced.

 

[savagewind]

I didn't specify sexual reproduction. Prior to sexual reproduction organisms still reproduced.

But it did read like that.

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

Now honestly if you think about this hard enough, something about the fact that you came to be at all will strike you as bizarre. You know not what occurred before you became, nor do you know how this occurred, why, or ultimately where you are going. However, you can now definitively say that you are, you have become the singularity, your individual telos has found residence in the flesh of an animal. Here you sit, reading this, converting light and color, shape and sound, sending a will to magically type your response. Fingertips and hands, to you alone they are enslaved. Your attention if divided can be trained into submission. You read this and wonder immediately what you can say to ameliorate the sudden existential discord, the fact that the curtain can be pulled on your certainty.

So how did you come to be? Was it karma, the negative and positive energies of your soul swirling in the firmament to reside in a host, was it a slighted god, molding you like craft-work. Was it a random conflux of hidden energies that happened with a probability never to be repeated, a quarky buildup of matter so random it would take a trillion dice? Who's to say you will not immediately occur again when a new pilot is required for some random new brain in the universe. Most likely that is what will happen. Once you land in an immortal coil as opposed to a mortal one, you might not have to keep reincarnating. Though I would argue at this stage that you are clearly constantly incarnating. You can say with certainty that you most likely had a long string of failures to find an immortal host, or if you ever could not age, you must have accidentally died.

The only way you could stop coming to be is if there was never again a seat to be filled. You clearly were not in the very beginning, or most likely were not, but no vacant seat is left open when they are built. If there were a trillion situations where consciousness could reside and over time that was subtracted to nine hundred ninety-nine billion nine hundred ninety-nine million nine hundred ninety-nine thousand nine hundred ninety-nine, perhaps one less soul that kept recycling could exist, or their incarnation would be put on hold. Of course no time would pass for the soul once it is waiting. And to finish, I myself am a atheist/agnostic, but I know this cannot be the first time I was, or is it likely it will be the last time I will be.

Perhaps this should help.

[youtube]4S8GOQeSlTs[/youtube]
The Big Bang Theory Intro - YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4S8GOQeSlTs

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Can't believe how strange it is to be anything at all - Neutral Milk Hotel

The only coherent answers appear to be that the self is transcendent, or an illusion. I prefer the first, but the second looks more likely.

There must be something about us that is transcendent, it has something to do with having our own individual perspectives.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

A single stray thought.

Yeah, a strand of stray telos.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Perhaps this should help.

Yeah it's totally clear now.