Science and logic apply to anything by default definition. This point has nothing to do with gods specifically, you just need to establish how anything that actually exists could be outside the scope of logic or science (not our ability to apply them, outside the fundamental concepts). You can't do that.
No, I can’t do that and I don’t need to since I accept that
some things that actually exist are outside the scope of logic and science.
They are only common expectations based on what believers claim God wants or does. If God can make anything happen and wants a particular thing to happen, why does that thing not happen?
Believers do not claim that God wants to end suffering or prove that He exists to everyone.
God can make anything happen but God does not make it happen because God wants humans to make it happen. That is why God gave us a rational mind and free will.
What humans want is a meaningless irrelevance if we're just tools for what God wants. The fact remains that it is a perfectly viable option that would better achieve the ends you say God wants. Yet God did not do that. The only possible conclusions are that God does not actually want what you believe he wants, God is not omnipotent or, of course, God doesn't exist at all.
What are the ends you think I said God wants to achieve?
According to my beliefs, God does not want anything for Himself because God needs nothing for Himself, since God is fully self-sufficient and fully self-sustaining. Humans never having existed is not what God wants; otherwise God would not have created humans. According to my beliefs, God created us out of His love for us. God loves us so God wants what is best for humans.
If God created humans knowing they would inevitably commit evil, he would be responsible for that evil. If you push an empty car down a hill, you're responsible for it crashing at the bottom. If there is someone in the car who could hit the breaks but you
know they won't, you'd be equally responsible for the crash at the bottom. Omnipotence renders our "choice" irrelevant since it renders them predetermined.
God created humans knowing they would inevitably commit evil, but God is not responsible for that evil because God does not commit evil deeds, humans do. What God knows that humans will do does not
cause humans to do what they do. There is no logical connection. Humans have free will to choose what they will do and that is what causes humans to act as they do.
Well then stop claiming to know what God wants then. If we can't know what God wants, you can't declare that God doesn't want evil in the world.
I do believe I know what God wants for humans as it was revealed to Baha’u’llah, who was God’s Messenger. I know that God does not want evil in the world because God revealed laws in order to prevent evil. God revealed laws through all His Messengers, and those laws, if followed, would eliminate evil in the world, but men have knowingly broken God’s laws and that is why there is evil in the world.
That is just adding meaningless levels of perceived choice. The fact remains that whatever is ultimately going to happen will happen at some point in time. Ever choice eventually becomes fixed after it is made. A truly omniscient being must be aware of that final point (and everything after it) by definition and so couldn't be unaware of what the ultimate decision will be.
God knows what is ultimately going to happen because God is all-knowing, but it has not happened until it actually happens. The choice is only fixed after it is made.
God is aware of every decision a human will ever make and is aware of what the ultimate end for every human will be because God is all-knowing. Everything that will ever happen to every human is written on the Tablet of Fate because God has always known it will happen long before it ever unfolds on this world.
Yet again, it is not the omniscience which renders God responsible for everything, it is the combination of omniscience and omnipotence.
Omnipotence does not mean God is responsible for
everything that happens. God is only responsible for what He
causes to happen by virtue of His power.
God is not responsible for
everything because God is not responsible for human free will choices and the ensuing actions. God is responsible for everything else because God wills everything else that happens.
If humans were not responsible for their moral choices there would be no courts of law where humans are held accountable for their choices.
Again, science is not limited to "humans" or "eyes". Something being theoretically observable by any consciousness by any means is sufficient for it to be within the scope of science. Or, in simplified terms, "anything".
No, it does not need to be seen with the human eye to be within the scope of science, but there is no reason to believe that
everything in existence is within the scope of science.
How can there be anything that cannot be known? Remember that this is in the context of you proposing an omniscient God.
Everything is known by the omniscient God but everything cannot be known by humans because humans have limitations regarding what they are able to comprehend. If Baha’u’llah had revealed everything that was revealed to Him by God, no human could ever comprehend it. What was revealed was according to our capacity to understand.
“Oh, would that the world could believe Me! Were all the things that lie enshrined within the heart of Bahá, and which the Lord, His God, the Lord of all names, hath taught Him, to be unveiled to mankind, every man on earth would be dumbfounded.......
Of these truths some can be disclosed only to the extent of the capacity of the repositories of the light of Our knowledge, and the recipients of Our hidden grace.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 176
In the future more of God’s truth will be revealed, more and more in each successive age. There is no limit to what humans can comprehend, but it cannot be revealed all at once, it has to be revealed in stages.
God only reveals what humans need and what they are ready to hear at any time in history. 2000 years ago humans could not bear to hear what Jesus knew so Jesus did not reveal it at that time, but what we could not bear 2000 years ago has now been revealed by Baha’u’llah, who was the Spirit of truth.
John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Please stop playing word games. Part of the scientific process is about verifying evidence. The fact remains that if you're using (and indeed verifying) evidence, you are applying scientific method. If you are declaring something as "beyond science" somehow, you can't use evidence in relation to it at all.
Well, maybe there is some truth to what you are saying. I learn something new each day. I just happened to receive this article that addressed the scientific method and how it should be used to ascertain the truth about God and religion.
How to Investigate Things For Yourself—and Not Rely on Hearsay
Science PART 3 IN SERIES:
The What Why and How of Independent Investigation
Clearly, the
Baha’i teachings ask all people to independently investigate the truth—but many will still be left with the question: How do I actually
do robust independent investigation for myself?
One of the most straightforward ways to learn how to investigate reality involves learning the processes of science—which dovetails with the Baha’i principle of the essential harmony of science and religion:
Perhaps the most important gift that science has to offer us is the knowledge of its methods. The scientific method forms an excellent model for investigating many truths. The scientific method involves five basic steps:
- careful observation
- applying rigorous, questioning skepticism to those observations
- formulating hypotheses based on the observations, and on inductive reasoning
- experimental and measurement-based testing of all deductions drawn from the hypotheses
- and refinement (or elimination) of the hypotheses based on the experimental findings.
https://bahaiteachings.org/how-to-investigate-things-for-yourself-not-rely-on-hearsay
IN SERIES:
The What Why and How of Independent Investigation
I fully understand and it is recognised as part of the limitations of humans applying scientific method, limitations that can be mitigated to a significant extent. Those limitations would apply to literally any scientific hypothesis on any topic though, so if you're dismissing this process out of hand in relation to your God, you are dismissing scientific method entirely.
No, as I just said, I do not dismiss the scientific method, but admittedly my academic background was not science so I am not very familiar with the scientific method.
I'm not willing to answer any further questions like this as long as you're choosing to dismiss logic and science as soon as they become inconvenient to your beliefs. I totally support your freedom to believe anything you like. I don't support you declaring special rule that only apply to your beliefs to prevent them from being legitimately questioned (especially where those beliefs are intended to be the basis for peoples behaviour).
I think you have a misunderstanding. I do not dismiss logic or science and neither one is inconvenient to my beliefs. You can question anything you want to. I am going to adhere to what I believe about God but that does not mean I am not open to any arguments I consider reasonable.
if you don't believe me take a look, they use different names of course, but they are talking about god, so me. 