Atheists: If God existed would God……

[Trailblazer]

Why can't we ask the person who is claiming their God didn't? Finding a cancer researcher at 5.30am on a Sunday might prove a little difficult for me but the person making the claim is right here.

Why assume that God did, when you cannot even prove it?
Any cancer researcher would laugh in your face and you know it.

@lewisnotmiller said that atheists don't blame God for anything and I told him almost all atheists I know blame God for everything that is bad in this world, everything they don't like. The evidence is readily available as it is plastered all over this forum.

 

[Trailblazer]

I thought it was self explanatory. Religions need a "get out of jail free card" for questions that are too difficult. The people making excuses for their God often use "free will" as the "get out of jail free card". In this particular conversation "you" were using it.

No, I was not using free will as an excuse. I said that free will does not cause cancer, but that does not mean that God causes cancer. It is not an either/or, either God causes cancer or free will causes cancer. Sometimes **** just happens and the cause is unknown.

 

[John53]

Why assume that God did, when you cannot even prove it?

Dodging by answering with questions again.

Any cancer researcher would laugh in your face and you know it.

I have no idea what you mean by this.

@lewisnotmiller said that atheists don't blame God for anything and I told him almost all atheists I know blame God for everything that is bad in this world, everything they don't like. The evidence is readily available as it is plastered all over this forum.

Asking a believer to explain something is not blaming a God. It's trying to get your understanding of what the atheist thinks is evidence that God does not exist.

 

[Trailblazer]

If that's the case then wouldn't the appropriate answer be "I don't know" and not a claim that God is not responsible for cancer?

The appropriate answer would be "I don't know" and not a claim that God is responsible for cancer. To claim that God is responsible for cancer is true because it has not yet been proven false is an argument from ignorance, a logical fallacy.

Argument from ignorance asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false or proposition is false because it has not yet been proven true. This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that there may have been an insufficient investigation, and therefore there is insufficient information to prove the proposition be either true or false. Nor does it allow the admission that the choices may in fact not be two (true or false), but may be as many as four,

1. true
2. false
3. unknown between true or false
4. being unknowable (among the first three).[1]

Argument from ignorance - Wikipedia

 

[John53]

No, I was not using free will as an excuse. I said that free will does not cause cancer, but that does not mean that God causes cancer. It is not an either/or, either God causes cancer or free will causes cancer. Sometimes **** just happens and the cause is unknown.

The conversation where I used "get out of jail free card" was before I asked if free will caused cancer. And I only asked if free will caused cancer because I was frustrated by your dodging of the cancer question from another user.

 

[John53]

The appropriate answer would be "I don't know" and not a claim that God is responsible for cancer. To claim that God is responsible for cancer is true because it has not yet been proven false is an argument from ignorance, a logical fallacy.

No one claimed God is responsible for cancer! You on the other hand claimed he wasn't.

Argument from ignorance asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false or proposition is false because it has not yet been proven true. This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that there may have been an insufficient investigation, and therefore there is insufficient information to prove the proposition be either true or false. Nor does it allow the admission that the choices may in fact not be two (true or false), but may be as many as four,

1. true
2. false
3. unknown between true or false
4. being unknowable (among the first three).[1]

Argument from ignorance - Wikipedia

I have no idea what the relevance of this is to the conversation.

 

[Trailblazer]

Dodging by answering with questions again.

I am not dodging anything. Why can't you give me a straight answer to my question?

I have no idea what you mean by this.

Any cancer researcher would laugh in your face because they would never say God causes cancer, they would know better.

Asking a believer to explain something is not blaming a God. It's trying to get your understanding of what the atheist thinks is evidence that God does not exist.

But sometimes there is no explanation since there are mysteries in life that nobody has the answers to.

I logical reason not to believe in God is because you see no evidence for God.
An illogical reason not to believe in God is because you think God should or would do x if God existed. You have NO WAY to know what God would do if God existed and you are certainly in no position to be telling an omnipotent/omniscient God what He 'should do.' That is completely illogical.

 

[Trailblazer]

No one claimed God is responsible for cancer! You on the other hand claimed he wasn't.

Yes, many atheists have claimed that God is responsible for cancer on this thread and other threads. I don't have time to go back through this thread and find the posts.

 

[CG Didymus]

Let's see if I'm following this correctly...

If you sell a car to somebody knowing that they're going to use it to kill people, then you're an accessory to those deaths, but no car salesman knows what anyone is going to do with the car they buy.

People can choose either good or evil because they have free will. No, God is not responsible for what people choose to do with their free will.

Free will is the greatest religious get out of jail free card ever. It excuses everything that can't be explained.

So, do some religious people use "free-will" to excuse God from being responsible? I would agree with that.

Who needs to get out of jail? Who needs an excuse? What do they need an excuse for and why?

You just used it in what I replied to.

And here is the difference between a human salesperson and God.

God knows, so God is responsible.

Yes, the God of some religious people is believed to know everything that has happened and will happen.

The person who kills someone with his car has free will, but you just agreed that a car salesperson who sold him the car knowingly would be responsible for the death.

You keep contradicting yourself, so it's time to ask you again: what do you believe? Do you think that one person's free will absolves others of responsibility for their role in the the person's actions?

- if yes, then nobody is an accessory to someone else's crime.
- if no, then your whole "God can't be responsible because people have free will" thing is nonsense.

The choice is yours. A yes or no answer, please.

To have a belief in a God that knows ahead of time what's going to happen, and then try to make what happens not his fault, is always going to be a difficult thing to explain. But, lucky for them, their concept of God washed his hands of responsibility by saying that he created them to be able to choose good or evil. If they choose evil, that's on them.

Yeah but, this God knew that they would choose evil. So, you're exactly right, this puts God in the same place as the salesman who sold the car to the guy who he knew was going to drive it well over the speed limit. But a better analogy these days would be the salesman who sold an assault rifle to a person they knew was going to use it to kill innocent people. Why not just say that God knew the people that would choose evil, but that's what he wanted. He wanted people, all people, to fall short and have to turn to him. He wanted a world that was filled with evil, so he could say "turn to me and I will save you". Yet... even those that turn to him and try and devote their lives to him suffer. And that's another thing that some religious people try to explain and search for an excuse and a reason why God made the world like this. If this concept of God is real, then this is exactly what he wanted. They shouldn't excuse him but ask him... "Why"?

 

[John53]

I am not dodging anything. Why can't you give me a straight answer to my question?

Welcome to my world.

Any cancer researcher would laugh in your face because they would never say God causes cancer, they would know better.

I would never ask a cancer researcher if God caused cancer because I don't believe in any God.

But sometimes there is no explanation since there are mysteries in life that nobody has the answers to.

Then the appropriate answer is "I don't know" not a claim that God didn't create cancer.

I logical reason not to believe in God is because you see no evidence for God.
An illogical reason not to believe in God is because you think God should or would do x if God existed. You have NO WAY to know what God would do if God existed and you are certainly in no position to be telling an omnipotent/omniscient God what He 'should do.' That is completely illogical.

We've had this discussion so many times in the past. I don't believe in any God but sometimes for the sake of the discussion I talk in hypotheticals. If I ask why isn't God responsible for cancer if he created everything it doesn't mean I think God actually created cancer. I'm asking a question to you about your beliefs.

 

[John53]

Yes, many atheists have claimed that God is responsible for cancer on this thread and other threads. I don't have time to go back through this thread and find the posts.

You don't need to. You are misunderstanding their post and this has been pointed out to you many times. They are asking you to explain how it works with your beliefs.

 

[Trailblazer]

To have a belief in a God that knows ahead of time what's going to happen, and then try to make what happens not his fault, is always going to be a difficult thing to explain.

There is absolutely NO connection between God's foreknowledge of what is going to happen and God causing anything to happen.

Knowing something is going to happen does not cause that thing to happen.
An astronomer knows that an eclipse is going to take place in a certain part of the world at a certain time, but the astronomer's knowledge does not cause an eclipse to occur.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

Question.—If God has knowledge of an action which will be performed by someone, and it has been written on the Tablet of Fate, is it possible to resist it?

Answer.—The foreknowledge of a thing is not the cause of its realization; for the essential knowledge of God surrounds, in the same way, the realities of things, before as well as after their existence, and it does not become the cause of their existence. It is a perfection of God.....
Some Answered Questions, p. 138

 

[Sheldon]

My 17 year old Bichon Frise has more agency than God (per my beliefs), and he's not even able to hold his bladder until he's outside.

Ok that made me laugh a half tidy rioja through my nose. I'm not complaining obviously, kudos to you, it was a rooky mistake on my part.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yeah but, this God knew that they would choose evil. So, you're exactly right, this puts God in the same place as the salesman who sold the car to the guy who he knew was going to drive it well over the speed limit.

The salesman did not know the buyer was going to drive the car over the speed limit. He has no way to know that.

God knows who will choose good and evil since God is all-knowing, but God's knowledge does not CAUSE anyone to do good or evil. It is completely illogical to claim that.

Defendant to judge and jury:
God knew I was going to murder my wife so I am not guilty of murdering my wife! I am innocent and God is guilty because God knew I was going to murder my wife

Nothing could be more ridiculous or more illogical. Why not just face the fact that humans have free will so humans are responsible for their choices and actions? Why keep blaming God for everything that humans do wrong?

 

[CG Didymus]

So God creates children with the genes that cause cancers. Cool. Let's worship and celebrate this God.

Yeah, cancer came from somewhere. Those that believe God created everything would have to say that God did create cancer. Of course, he had a good reason to do it.

God created many things that bring suffering and God also created many things that bring joy.
The material realm of existence is a mixed bag.

Why make children suffer and die, which makes parents and family members suffer as well? You can say God created these cancers, but why? Would you deliberately cause cancer to a child? What does that achieve?

Your claims put pressure on yourself to explain all this so it makes sense, and is moral.

That's the thing... how do believers in a loving God explain this?

God did not create cancer, Cancer has many causes but God is not one of them.

As always, you are a master of posts with contradictory statements. See the first two in your post.
Then who created cancer?

In their beliefs, there is only one creator and that is God. Now if we take God out of the picture, what is cancer and what causes it? Things in the body just go bad. They fall apart and fail. They get diseased and die. Then if we put God back into the picture, then that's how he wanted it. He wanted death and disease to plague people and all other living things.

Nobody created cancer, it occurred naturally. Cancer has many causes but God is not one of them.

There is no contradiction.
God is responsible for both the good and the bad things that happen.
Cancer is bad but God did not create cancer.

Nature is a creation of God. Or somebody else created it? Your statements are always confusing..

Yes, they can't say God created everything except things they don't want to attribute to God.

but cancer isn't.

Nature is not a creation of God? Don't you believe that God is the First Cause?

Yes, if there is a creator God, then he created everything... including disease. And it does kind of serve a spiritual purpose, it gets people to pray to God for healing. And if they don't get healed, then to pray for mercy in the spirit world. But even without a God, disease gets people to try and find cures and to try and live and eat healthier.

but cancer isn't.

This is a known fact?

Here's where it gets nuts. God isn't a known fact, but religious people "know" that God is real?

It is not a known fact that God even exists, let alone that God created cancer.

If that's the case then wouldn't the appropriate answer be "I don't know" and not a claim that God is not responsible for cancer?

Yeah, same old problem... things that sound like "claims", but they are only "beliefs".

The appropriate answer would be "I don't know" and not a claim that God is responsible for cancer.

No one claimed God is responsible for cancer! You on the other hand claimed he wasn't.

If I believed in this creator God, I would have no problem making him responsible for creating cancer. It's just I might have to adjust my beliefs in calling this God "All-Loving".

Yes, many atheists have claimed that God is responsible for cancer on this thread and other threads.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then the appropriate answer is "I don't know" not a claim that God didn't create cancer.

No, the appropriate answer is "I don't know why people get cancer." Do some research or ask a cancer researcher if you want to know.

I go where the scientific evidence is. There is no 'reason to believe' that God created cancer because there is no 'evidence' that God created cancer.

We've had this discussion so many times in the past. I don't believe in any God but sometimes for the sake of the discussion I talk in hypotheticals. If I ask why isn't God responsible for cancer if he created everything it doesn't mean I think God actually created cancer. I'm asking a question to you about your beliefs.

And I answered your question.

 

[Truthseeker]

Now this is a mystery. May be we should call Hercule Poirot or Sherlock Holmes. Bond also will be able to get at the root of this with his rough and tumble tactics.
God does not create it. Humans do not cause it because of their free will. Then who creates it? Satan. But Bahais do not believe in existence of Satan.
Trailblazer, can you kindly unroll the mystery?

The way I would answer that is that God created the material world, and the evolution of life leading to humans in some way led to cancer being present in some people. So indirectly perhaps because of the way the material world came into being, God is responsible for cancer. This is complicated by the quantum world, where certain material occurances seemingly are probablistic, which I believe came into play during evolution of life on Earth.

 

[Trailblazer]

They are asking you to explain how it works with your beliefs.

And I have answered many times how it works with my beliefs.

 

[John53]

No, the appropriate answer is "I don't know why people get cancer." Do some research or ask a cancer researcher if you want to know.

I go where the scientific evidence is. There is no 'reason to believe' that God created cancer because there is no 'evidence' that God created cancer.

Same difference except one way is much shorter.

And I answered your question.

You completely missed the point but I'm assuming that's so you can go on claiming atheists believe God created cancer.

 

[Trailblazer]

You completely missed the point but I'm assuming that's so you can go on claiming atheists believe God created cancer.

Some atheists do believe that. So what?