Atheists: If God existed would God……

[ppp]

Here's the synonyms:

account · story · tale · chronicle · history · description · record · portrayal · sketch · portrait · statement · report · rehearsal · recital · rendering
​

So, what Baha'u'llah wrote doesn't fit one of those?

Fits most of them, IMHO.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Here's the first three paragraphs of about 28...

Praise be to God Who hath ever caused His Names and Attributes to penetrate the degrees of existence; Who hath made the effects of those Names and Attributes to shine resplendent and their signs to be firmly established in both the hidden and manifest worlds. By them He hath made the holy realities that are informed by His grace and are the recipients of His outpourings to be the sole revealers of all that pertaineth unto Him, and hath caused them to move through the firmament of perfection in arcs of descent and ascent. He hath ordained these Names and Attributes to be the first and foremost origin and cause of being in the world of creation and the source of the different grades of realities in the degrees of existence. When, through its power of attraction and propagation, the Day-Star of Names and Attributes shone upon the hidden realities in the heart of the unseen realm, they issued forth, were spread abroad, scattered about, set in order, became the recipients of the grace of God and His outpourings, and were made to be the sole manifestations of the Divine conditions and Eternal signs. Emerging from behind the veils, they appeared clothed in raiments of light, moving in the firmament of the unity of God, in orbits of sanctity and circles of glorification.



Thus the suns of the praise of the one true God moved resplendent in a vast, infinite space, capable neither of being defined by limits nor contained within the compass of signs and allusions. All praise be to Him Who was its Author and Creator, Who spread it out, and adorned it with countless lamps and never-fading luminaries: 'None knoweth the hosts of thy Lord save Him' (Qur'an, 74:31). He made the circuits of these luminous divine orbs to be their lofty and celestial spheres; and He made the bodies of these spiritual spheres to be subtle and soft, flowing and liquid, undulating and vibrating, in such manner that these refulgent orbs swim in the circumferences of the spheres, and move in their vast space by the aid of their Creator and Maker, their Ordainer and Fashioner.



Divine and all-encompassing Wisdom hath ordained that motion be an inseparable concomitant of existence, whether inherently or accidentally, spiritually or materially. This movement must be governed by some check or rein, some regulator or director, otherwise order will be disrupted and the spheres and bodies will fall from the heavens. For this reason God brought into being a universal attractive force between these bodies to hold sway over them and govern them, a force deriving from the firm ties, the mighty correspondence and affinity that exist between the realities of these limitless worlds. By the operation of this attractive force those holy and resplendent suns, with their luminous worlds, satellites and planets, circling and orbiting in their heavens, at once exerted attraction and were subject to it, induced motion and were themselves moved, began orbiting and set into orbit other bodies, shone forth and caused others to shine. In this manner they became arranged in a perfectly ordered system, each one a handiwork of consummate fashioning and manifest beauty, each one an enduring creation and a conclusive proof. Glory be to Him Who attracted them, laid firm hold on them, imbued them with effulgence, ordered them and set them in motion; and far from His glory be that which any of his creatures can affirm of Him or attribute to Him.
​

That's a lot of words. Do you have something that is more to the point? I don't think Abraham and Moses... or Adam and Noah, were manifestations. I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't even real, historical people. The point of the stories seems to be to get people to believe in a creator God and obey his rules. I can see why some Jews would believe these stories as true, even some Christians. But Baha'is don't take the stories as true, yet... they make some of the characters in those stories manifestations of God?

Like I said, the only reason I can is to support the Baha'i belief in progressive revelation. Which is fine for Baha'is, but I don't believe it. Again, people making up Gods and religions seems much more likely to me. And that eliminates any need to try and reconcile the differences and contradictions. Hindus can have their many Gods and incarnations and reincarnation. And Christianity can have their dying and rising savior God/man.

In a few words are all the Suns the same size and intensity?

You then have your answer why we see the Messengers differently in this material world.

One has to look at what those words are saying. The passages you quoted are of the Spiritual Creation, what I see os the Holy Spirit. Later in the Tablet Abdul'baha says look at those truths of the Spirit and then one can see how the material existence came into being.

Sorry busy week at work and now am at work.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

@TransmutingSoul Look at the peace in unity in action.

What I said has NOTHING to do with peace and unity.

Atheists keep making fun of the Baha'i Writings, which are sacred to me. Why should I care what atheists think of the Baha'i Writings?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Reading the Baha'i revelation is part of the problem... It's too wordy and too flowery. A concise version of the teachings would be a much better place to start. Which book do you recommend? Maybe "Baha'u'llah and the New Era"? But not something by Shoghi Effendi. He is too wordy also.

The book I read was 'God loves Laughter, by William Sears.

It changed my heart and direction of life. Many enjoy this book

God Loves Laughter

https://www.amazon.com.au/God-Loves-Laughter-William-Sears-ebook/dp/B07P7CW3S6

There may be a PDF available on the net?

Regards Tony

 

[John53]

What I said has NOTHING to do with peace and unity.

That was my point.

Atheists keep making fun of the Baha'i Writings, which are sacred to me. Why should I care what atheists think of the Baha'i Writings?

You make a mockery of anyone who doesn't believe what you believe so why should I care what you think

 

[Trailblazer]

Well done you. I have always meant to do that with the Tablet of Ahmad. Maybe now is the time to do just that, learn well this Tablet and chant it during thy days .

Regards Tony

Like I said Tony, when everything else feels hopeless and lost, like now, I know God is still there.

“While a man is happy he may forget his God; but when grief comes and sorrows overwhelm him, then will he remember his Father who is in Heaven, and who is able to deliver him from his humiliations.”
Paris Talks, pp. 50-51

 

[ppp]

I've known lots of Baha'is. That is not something any of the Baha'is I knew would ever say to anyone. Here's a Baha'is giving their thoughts about this...

We see humanity as one, one family.

Nobody is condemned for being of another religion, even Agnostics and Atheists are not condemned.

We focus in the well-being and progress of the human race.

We want others to join us in the Bahá'í principles, and we do not seek to convert others necessarily.

Teaching the Bahá'í Faith is much more than convert others, is to learn together, to grow together, to work together, to share together, etc. The Bahá'í teachings are not only for Bahá'ís, they are for the entire planet.

Bahá'u'lláh wrote: “Be fair in thy judgment, and guarded in thy speech”, so we do not judge other religious people.
​

The Baha'is I hung out with thought along these lines. Obviously, not all Baha'is think this way. But I don't think their own Scriptures would support them "not caring".

It's okay. She is just frustrated. And she see my star trek comparison as a comparison of her god to Captain Kirk. As opposed to the simple point that the word count of any given body of work has no bearing on it's factuality.

 

[Trailblazer]

You make a mockery of anyone who doesn't believe what you believe so why should I care what you think

Who am I mocking? Please provide the evidence of this assertion.

It is certain atheists who are mocking the Baha'i Writings, calling them stories, calling them silly.

And the silly Ba'hai writings are far, far less expansive than the Star Trek writings.
#3069 Policy, Today at 12:44 AM

It is not me who mocks the atheist beliefs. I am known to say that atheism is just as logical as belief, since there is no proof that God exists.

 

[John53]

Who am I mocking? Please provide the evidence of this assertion.

Read your own replies to anyone who doesn't agree with you.

It is certain atheists who are mocking the Baha'i Writings, calling them stories, etc..

OMG what a crime, crucify the infidels! Did you even read the definition of "story" you posted? Of course we could have discussed this in reasonable manner but you chose to respond to everything like a disgruntled child.

It is not me who mocks the atheist beliefs. I am known to say that atheism is just as logical as belief, since there is no proof that God exists.

Your actions suggest otherwise.

 

[Trailblazer]

Wow, I did not know that you were so much against Bible. Being against Bible is being against Christians.

I did not say the Bible is silly. I said the world is silly.

TransmutingSoul said: what a silly world we now have and live in.

Trailblazer said: and it will remain silly until more people recognize Baha'u'llah..

I am not against the Bible but I do think it it is not the Book of God for this new age.

“They that valiantly labor in quest of God, will, when once they have renounced all else but Him, be so attached and wedded unto that City, that a moment’s separation from it would to them be unthinkable. They will hearken unto infallible proofs from the Hyacinth of that assembly, and will receive the surest testimonies from the beauty of its Rose, and the melody of its Nightingale. Once in about a thousand years shall this City be renewed and readorned….

That City is none other than the Word of God revealed in every age and dispensation. In the days of Moses it was the Pentateuch; in the days of Jesus, the Gospel; in the days of Muhammad, the Messenger of God, the Qur’án; in this day, the Bayán; and in the Dispensation of Him Whom God will make manifest, His own Book—the Book unto which all the Books of former Dispensations must needs be referred, the Book that standeth amongst them all transcendent and supreme.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 269-270

 

[Trailblazer]

Don't you think it's a bit suspect that different deities receive the approbation of adherents for all the "good" stuff, but a shrug of a shoulders is generally the response to the "bad" stuff? Doesn't the bias in that position leap out at you? This is the kind of rationale that rejoices at miracles when something advantageous or at least innocuous happens, but then claims their deity is mysterious when tragedy strikes. It is very poor and irrational reasoning.

You can count me out of that group of theists who only look at the good things and thank God for those things while completely ignoring the bad things that happen to people.

Please note what I posted in a thread recently.
Questions that believers cannot answer

In short, God is responsible for both the good and the bad things that happen to humans that are not chosen via free will.

The deity is mysterious all the way around. We can never know why bad things happen to good people or vice versa.

 

[Trailblazer]

Know? I think you might be oversimplifying this scenario. For a start there are many different kinds of cancer, and the "causes" can be complex, since there might be various contributing factors. However the existence of a deity that created everything would rationally infer it created the causes and if it's omniscient knew absolutely what the result would be.

Of course God knows the causes and the results of cancer because God is all-knowing.

But God knowing the causes and results does not mean God causes cancer. There is no logical connection between knowledge and causation. An astronomer knows when and where a future eclipse will take place. Does the astronomer cause the eclipse to take place? Why would God's knowledge of future events be any different?

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

Question.—If God has knowledge of an action which will be performed by someone, and it has been written on the Tablet of Fate, is it possible to resist it?

Answer.—The foreknowledge of a thing is not the cause of its realization; for the essential knowledge of God surrounds, in the same way, the realities of things, before as well as after their existence, and it does not become the cause of their existence. It is a perfection of God.......
Some Answered Questions, p. 138

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: There is absolutely NO connection between God's foreknowledge of what is going to happen and God causing anything to happen.

There is if that deity can prevent it, and does nothing.

Whether God can prevent it or not is completely irrelevant to the point.
Knowledge does not cause anything to happen, as I just said in my previous post.

Also to suggest a deity is omnipotent but can't intervene without affecting human autonomy, logically suggests it can't be omnipotent. Choosing to nothing would logically infers it is culpable. This type of paradox is at the core of theodicy, that theologians have struggled with for millennia.

I never said that God cannot intervene without affecting human autonomy. I only ever said that God chooses not to intervene. God might intervene in certain cases but we can never know if or when that occurs.

Why should God intervene and prevents events from happening? Because God is omnipotent so God can do anything is not an answer. An omnipotent God could destroy all of creation in a heartbeat, but He does not do so.

Why should God intervene and prevent things that atheists consider bad from happening? Not one atheist has ever been able to give me a logical answer to this question. God should intervene and stop bad things from happening because I don't like bad things is not a logical answer, it is an emotion-based response.

 

[Trailblazer]

Read your own replies to anyone who doesn't agree with you.

I see you could not provide any evidence of me mocking people who do not agree with me so you resorted to deflection.

 

[John53]

Just posted one for you TB... grow up

 

[CG Didymus]

Wow, I did not know that you were so much against Bible. Being against Bible is being against Christians. Won't you need the help of Christians who follow a silly book to bring peace and brotherhood, or you think that they would be taken care of by the Bahai militia when the time comes?

And if the Bible is "silly" and "wrong" then whose fault is that? The God that Baha'is say they believe in let people write most of the stories in the Bible. He supposedly wrote the Ten Commandments in stone, so he does know how to write. But no, Baha'is don't necessarily believe that, and other Bible stories literally happened. So, then what are those stories? To Baha'i they are fictional stories that have symbolic spiritual meaning. But it was still people, not their God, that wrote them. And even they say, they can't be certain how authentic they are.

But they are still supposed to respect them as Scripture and not call them "silly". But I think it's the same with any of the Hindu Scriptures. Baha'is have never told me which ones they believe were revealed by God and are true. They don't believe the Gods mentioned in those stories, yet they pick one person out of those stories, Krishna, and say that he is real and is a manifestation of God. Now that is just silly.

 

[Trailblazer]

Just posted one for you TB... grow up

Where is the post where I mocked anyone?
Please provide the link to the post.
If there is one you should be able to provide the link. Evidence is everything.

 

[CG Didymus]

In a few words are all the Suns the same size and intensity?

You then have your answer why we see the Messengers differently in this material world.

Yes, the "intensity" of Abraham is different than Moses... or Joseph, or Isaiah or Noah. But none of them are called "manifestations" of God. Would Abraham or Moses even claim that they were? Why would they have to? They don't need to be anything other than ordinary men who God spoke to and used in spite of their flaws. But what are we even talking about? Did those events in the Bible really happen? I don't think so. Do Baha'is? I don't think Baha'is do. I think Baha'is believe them to be fictional. Is that correct? If so, why would a fictional story need a character in the story to become a "manifestation", when nothing in the story says that he is? Now, thousands of years later, it is the Baha'is that need Abraham and Moses to be manifestations. Jews and Christians don't need them to be anything other than regular humans.

Unfortunately for all of us, some religious beliefs can't be denied by the followers of the religion without making the religion false. Baha'is need there to be such a thing as "manifestations" of God... not incarnations, not literal sons of God, and not a "realized" or "enlightened" being. They have to be manifestations. It's fine. It's your beliefs. I just don't believe it.

 

[CG Didymus]

The book I read was 'God loves Laughter, by William Sears.

It changed my heart and direction of life. Many enjoy this book

God Loves Laughter

https://www.amazon.com.au/God-Loves-Laughter-William-Sears-ebook/dp/B07P7CW3S6

There may be a PDF available on the net?

Regards Tony

Yeah, that's more my style. Thanks

 

[CG Didymus]

It's okay. She is just frustrated. And she see my star trek comparison as a comparison of her god to Captain Kirk. As opposed to the simple point that the word count of any given body of work has no bearing on it's factuality.

Yeah, because I don't respond directly to her anymore, because it was too frustrating for me, I post things that are meant for the Baha'is while posting to others. Sorry, but I couldn't deal with her style of arguing or debating or whatever it is she thinks she is doing. But I like her threads and like what you and others have to say in those threads.