Atheists: If God existed would God……

[CG Didymus]

The trouble is ... how do you know it is not a false prophet? There are plenty of idiots claiming to be a prophet.

Well, supposedly if the thing didn't come to pass, the people were to stone the person to death. But then the NT says that even the devil can appear as an angel of light. Okay, I go back to God then and ask, "What the #%&$ Who are we supposed to believe? You have true prophets and then you send false ones. What's your problem? Are you trying to help us or just screw with us?" The way it looks... it is that God wants to screw with us.

And whether a prophet is true or false is exactly what we are stuck with. Is the prophet of the Baha'i Faith true or false? I think there's enough for people to go either way. Which proves nothing. It just depends on what a person wants to believe.

 

[CG Didymus]

Happens all the time in fiction.

Yeah, and that is what Baha'is are calling most of those Bible stories, fiction. And the mistake the Jews and Christian made was to take those stories as being historically and literally true. But not to make the Bible a word of fiction, they say the stories were true, symbolically. It works for them, because then they can say the "believe" in the Bible.

 

[F1fan]

No, you only have to get out of the way of what you want and start thinking logically.

That's advice you should take. Because it's YOU who can't give me one rational reason why god shouldn't communicate directly with everyone, except for the fact that you don't want your god to want to do that... because the only way your god has any chance of actually existing is if this god doesn't care if everyone gets its message.

Right, one mortal can understand God and put the message into words other mortals can understand, but God can't? That's fishy.

 

[ChristineM]

Yeah, and that is what Baha'is are calling most of those Bible stories, fiction. And the mistake the Jews and Christian made was to take those stories as being historically and literally true. But not to make the Bible a word of fiction, they say the stories were true, symbolically. It works for them, because then they can say the "believe" in the Bible.

I have already been in trouble a couple of times for my comments about the Baha'i faith and some of their beliefs so i will not comment in this.

 

[CG Didymus]

Exactly. Are the messages consistent? No. Are they even consistent within any particular faith? No.

If it is a God that is communicating, it is doing a very poor job of it.

The inconsistency of spiritual/religious beliefs isn't a problem if a person believes that people made it all up. But the Baha'i claim is that all messengers, of all the major religions came from one source, God. To that they agree, people did make things up and added them to some "original" teachings of the messenger. But those "original" teachings don't exist. Which is convenient, because who can prove them wrong?

So, God, learning from his mistakes, finally had the messenger write his teachings down. In which the Baha'i messenger clears up all the inconsistencies and contradictions... He says whatever I said in my books is the truth and whatever those other religions say, that contradicts me, is wrong and is something their doggone followers added in.

 

[CG Didymus]

Right, one mortal can understand God and put the message into words other mortals can understand, but God can't? That's fishy.

Ah, but you forget, that one mortal was also specially wired by God to hear his voice. And then tell everybody about God and what God wants in a way that is confusing and controversial. That way only those that are open to hear that message, can hear it and understand it. Then they tell those that don't want to hear the message and don't believe in their messenger, how hard-headed and blind they are for not seeing the truth of the message.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

I said "This is what atheists do when they dismiss Messengers if God just because they don't like them." I was not referring to you. I know why you dismiss the claims.

Well, I can at LEAST appreciate that!

Most atheists absolutely reject any claims of any Messenger out of hand, although there are a few exceptions....

(They) reject such claims regarding messengers "out of hand" because they, like me, have ALREADY run the gamot of claims vs excuses and have, and also like me, come up SHORT in the "evidence" line of business.

Many atheists don't like the IDEA of Messengers because they want a direct message form God, as if they are soooooooooo important that the Almighty God should speak to them directly. It is sickening that anyone could be so full of themselves.

I see that as being a perfectly reasonable expectation......for IF the message really IS all that important, then it should BEHOOVE such an all powerful God to at least MAKE THE EFFORT to get the "message" out to ALL human beings....and NOT just to ONE character and expect THAT one, to get the "message" out to the masses.

However, IF the message is NOT all that earth-shaking important, then I suppose that simply giving it to one "designated" individual to pass on to others, WOULD be acceptable.

 

[CG Didymus]

I have already been in trouble a couple of times for my comments about the Baha'i faith and some of their beliefs so i will not comment in this.

Hmmm, that's too bad. But the main thing I tell them is that they might have more in common with Atheists than most Christians. Baha'is don't take the Bible literally. They don't believe Jesus physically rose from the dead. And they don't believe in the Trinity. Oh, and they believe in the importance of science. So, why do some of them choose to put out threads about God aimed at Atheists?

 

[F1fan]

Ah, but you forget, that one mortal was also specially wired by God to hear his voice. And then tell everybody about God and what God wants in a way that is confusing and controversial. That way only those that are open to hear that message, can hear it and understand it. Then they tell those that don't want to hear the message and don't believe in their messenger, how hard-headed and blind they are for not seeing the truth of the message.

Right. But if God could wire that one guy to hear the voice why not everyone else?

Still, it opens the whole thing up to fraud, as how do you test whether a person is authentic or a fraud? It's a terrible design by God in both cases. No wonder religion globally is divided and often messy.

Plus none of the Baha'i here are messengers, nor can talk to messengers, and read things from others who aren't messengers, so it's heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend who heard it from God.

The texts from messengers that get quoted are rampant with logical inconsistencies and assertions that can't be verified, so it demands thinkers suspend doubts and in essence have religious faith. God didn't know this?

 

[CG Didymus]

Right. But if God could wire that one guy to hear the voice why not everyone else?

Still, it opens the whole thing up to fraud, as how do you test whether a person is authentic or a fraud? It's a terrible design by God in both cases. No wonder religion globally is divided and often messy.

Plus none of the Baha'i here are messengers, nor can talk to messengers, and read things from others who aren't messengers, so it's heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend who heard it from God.

The texts from messengers that get quoted are rampant with logical inconsistencies and assertions that can't be verified, so it demands thinkers suspend doubts and in essence have religious faith. God didn't know this?

Yet, supposedly Baha'is do believe we are wired to believe in God. But then.... which version of God? A friend of a friend of a friend found Jesus. Another friend found a competing version of Jesus. Another friend says Christ has returned and has a new name, Baha'u'llah. So, how do I know which one is authentic and which one is a fraud? I keep listening but keep being skeptical. Why is it that only some religions go out and try and "tell" people about their religion? And they all say something different? Someone's believing something that isn't true.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

Well, supposedly if the thing didn't come to pass, the people were to stone the person to death. But then the NT says that even the devil can appear as an angel of light. Okay, I go back to God then and ask, "What the #%&$ Who are we supposed to believe? You have true prophets and then you send false ones. What's your problem? Are you trying to help us or just screw with us?" The way it looks... it is that God wants to screw with us.

Are you aware that there actually ARE scriptures in the OT which come right out and ADMIT that this is what God does....and apparently does ON PURPOSE?

And whether a prophet is true or false is exactly what we are stuck with. Is the prophet of the Baha'i Faith true or false? I think there's enough for people to go either way. Which proves nothing. It just depends on what a person wants to believe.

Yeah, you have hit the proverbial nail squarely on its proverbial HEAD! It all boils DOWN to, "what a person WANTS to believe".

There have been MODERN DAY prophets......not just the Bahai one...such as All Mormon churches accept Joseph Smith as a Prophet of God. The Jehovah's Witness organization, claims to be a prophet of God. There have been others.....remember the Branch Davidians? and who was the guy who had all his people drink arsenic laced Koolaide? PROPHETS of GOD.....all saying BELIEVE MEEEEEE.

 

[Trailblazer]

How can something that I don't believe exists do something I don't want it to?

Whether it exists or not is not contingent upon whether you believe that it exists.
If it exists it can do something you don't want it to do, like being stubborn.

 

[ChristineM]

Hmmm, that's too bad. But the main thing I tell them is that they might have more in common with Atheists than most Christians. Baha'is don't take the Bible literally. They don't believe Jesus physically rose from the dead. And they don't believe in the Trinity. Oh, and they believe in the importance of science. So, why do some of them choose to put out threads about God aimed at Atheists?

They also believe the guy the faith follows spoke to god, got his message directly from source. This thay say is factual and logical though there is no evidence, no proof and no logic to the idea.
They don't like atheist much although some will try to ignore the fact you are atheist and pretend you are a human being.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe that the opposite will happen. With advance of science, people are going to abandon God/Allah and beliefs about prophets / sons / messengers / manifestations and Mahdis, which have no factual evidence.

Sorry, that is not what statistics show. Religion is growing, not shrinking.
Since the year 2000, religion has made resurgence whereas atheism and agnosticism are on the decline.

The growth rates of the Abrahamic religions from 1910-2010 were as follows: Judaism .11%, Christianity 1.32%, Islam 1.97%, and Baha’i Faith 3.54%.

Atheism was growing at a rate of 6.54% from 1910-2010 but dropped to a growth rate of 0.05% from 2000-2010. Agnosticism was growing at a rate of 5.45% from 1910-2010 but dropped to a growth rate of 0.32% from 2000-2010. That demonstrates that both atheism and agnosticism are on the decline but also that there are many more agnostics than atheists.

Statistics from: Growth of religion - Wikipedia

• Atheism growing? No, atheism is actually on the decline!
• The Future of World Religions: Population Growth Projections, 2010-2050
• Religiously Unaffiliated
• China on course to become 'world's most Christian nation' within 15 years

Some day in the future everyone will believe in God. It won't be during your lifetime so you don't have to worry about it, but it will happen, since that is what Scripture says. God alone knows the future.

Jeremiah 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Isaiah 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

“The Day is approaching when God will render the hosts of Truth victorious, and He will purge the whole earth in such wise that within the compass of His knowledge not a single soul shall remain unless he truly believeth in God, worshippeth none other God but Him, boweth down by day and by night in His adoration, and is reckoned among such as are well assured.”
Selections From the Writings of the Báb, pp. 153-154

 

[Trailblazer]

No. Won't happen

Got any proof of that? Otherwise it is just a personal opinion.
I have a belief and you have a personal opinion...
Neither one can be proven as a fact.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

Sorry, that is not what statistics show. Religion is growing, not shrinking.

Since the year 2000, religion has made resurgence whereas atheism and agnosticism are on the decline.

The growth rates of the Abrahamic religions from 1910-2010 were as follows: Judaism .11%, Christianity 1.32%, Islam 1.97%, and Baha’i Faith 3.54%.

From what I could glean from those stats, is that the ONLY reason it APPEARS that Abrahamic religions, and more specifically Christianity is "increasing" is primarily DUE to the fact that majority those Latino immigrants coming in, are of the Catholic persuasion.
Discounting THAT....Christianity is in a steep decline as more and more YOUNG people coming on the scene, have absolutely NO interest in that sort of nonsense.

Atheism was growing at a rate of 6.54% from 1910-2010 but dropped to a growth rate of 0.05% from 2000-2010. Agnosticism was growing at a rate of 5.45% from 1910-2010 but dropped to a growth rate of 0.32% from 2000-2010. That demonstrates that both atheism and agnosticism are on the decline but also that there are many more agnostics than atheists.

The truth actually be known, for all PRACTICAL purposes an "agnostic" IS an atheist.

Statistics from: Growth of religion - Wikipedia

Atheism growing? No, atheism is actually on the decline!
The Future of World Religions: Population Growth Projections, 2010-2050
Religiously Unaffiliated
China on course to become 'world's most Christian nation' within 15 years
http://masterrussian.com/russia/facts.htm

Some day in the future everyone will believe in God. It won't be during your lifetime so you don't have to worry about it, but it will happen, since that is what Scripture says. God alone knows the future.

Now THAT is really amusing......God KNOWS the "future", but totally didn't see the Holocaust coming....either that, or simply didn't GIVE a damn!~

 

[Trailblazer]

Why, oh why, do so many people claim "there is evidence" and stop right there? Wouldn't it be better to lay out that "evidence" before us?

I have posted the evidence innumerable times only to hear the same thing over and over again --
"That's not evidence."
Why would I post it again only to hear that again?

 

[ACEofALLaces]

I have posted the evidence innumerable times only to hear the same thing over and over again --
"That's not evidence."
Why would I post it again only to hear that again?

Now THAT is a damned GOOD question....and one would THINK, that maybe, JUST maybe, the one saying that, should go back and re-evaluate their so-called evidence and be HONEST with themselves about whether it really DOES seem like "good" evidence, if the proverbial "shoe" was on the OTHER foot!

 

[Trailblazer]

Except that it is *not* a trick question. The question is a serious one and it shows, I think, that the God many people imagine isn't real. As far as I can see, there is no way that a good, all powerful God would do what we actually see. Perhaps a creator God would, but people want to lump a lot of other properties onto creator Gods.

In your opinion there is no way that a good, all powerful God would do what we actually see but that does not mean that a good, all powerful God would do what we actually see.

In short, you just have a personal opinion, we all have those.
You cannot show that God is not real with a personal opinion nor can I show that God is real with a belief.

 

[ChristineM]

Got any proof of that? Otherwise it is just a personal opinion.
I have a belief and you have a personal opinion...
Neither one can be proven as a fact.

No, you have a personal opinion and i have a belief... See the difference?
I can only go by statistics, all religions are shrinking in number except islam and even the growth rate of islam is less than the world population increase which means the only expanding religion is actually shrinking in real terms.

And i don't trust the numbers given by religions for the number of adherents anyway. For example,. Christianity counts anyone who is baptised as christian. Leave the church and your record of christianity remains... According to Christianity i am counted as a christian. How many more athiests, agnostics, people who have changed religion are still counted as christian because as a baby they were baptised?
Also Wikipedia gives the number of Baha'i in India as 2.2 million whereas the national census question on religion gives it as less than 5000. That's a big discrepancy between claim and physical records.

Religion is dying in every country except Africa, a trend that has continued for more than 50 years and accelerates with the advent of the internet and as education becomes better.