Atheists: If God existed would God……

[F1fan]

I know what truth is.
I think. Therefore I am.

I take it you aren't confident enough about what you know to clarify what it is. Why is that?

 

[F1fan]

I do not need to prove that, I know without proof because I have evidence.

Proof is a colloquial word for evidence.

So give your evidence, as long as it's better than what you have presented thus far.

I see no point in continuing this conversation if we are just going to continue going around the merry-go-round. You know my position and I know yours. My position is not subject to change because I know what I believe is true.

Your position is weak. We know this. We keep trying to inform you of this.

 

[ppp]

Can you give me some examples of believers saying that God would do anything that you expect?
Did any believer ever say that God would convince you that He exists?
I have no idea where you are coming from.

You will never understand where I'm coming from as long as you insist on using 'expect' as a synonym of want or demand. I gave you two or three examples of what I meant by expect, but you seem dead set on insisting that expect must mean want. And no I am not going back to hunt them down for you.

Until you can bend at least enough to go and pick up a dictionary and look at the definitions ( plural) of the word and accept that my usage is valid, then you are stuck and there is nothing that I can do to help you.

 

[F1fan]

What nonsense.
Are you suggesting that you have not been provided with an intellect?
Did G-d make a mistake and leave you without one?

Insults? Is this the best you can do? Is there a reason you are evading my invitation to post your truth?

Why not explain to us what you know truth to be instead? I'm curious.

 

[Trailblazer]

I disagree. It seems the quickest and most effective way to get a message out to everyone.

Do you know what the message is? “I am God and I exist” is not the message.

Baha’u’llah rote 15,000 tablets. Why would God reveal all of that to all of the 7.8 billion people in the world?

Do you just assume that humans would have the capacity to understand God if He spoke to them?

I may not be able to make that work, but if God is all knowing, he would be able to find a way. And if he is all powerful, he would be able to accomplish it.

God did find a way to communicate to humans, you just don’t like the way He communicated.

If any of those occurred, it would show that God is not all powerful or all knowing.

Can you explain why? Can you explain how omnipotence and omniscience would mitigate against any of these?

· What if some people did not want to hear from God?
· How would anyone know it was God communicating?
· How could that ever bring world unity if everyone got their own personal message?
· If God communicated to everyone everything that He communicated to Baha'u'llah over the course of 40 years, when would they have any time to live their lives? The world would come to a complete standstill.

For example, God would know *how* to communicate in a way that each person would want and would be able to fit it to each individual. He would also, because he is all knowing, know what it would take to convince each person the message is from God and, being all powerful, be able to accomplish this. Again, if the desire of God is to bring world unity, being all knowing means he would know how to do it, and being all powerful, would be able to do it.

Number One – God does not want to convince anyone that He exists.

God does not want to do any of that, that is what YOU WANT God to do. God wants humans to choose to believe in Him on faith and evidence, not because He convinced us that He exists. God wants humans to bring about world unity by following the message of Baha’u’llah.

God being all-powerful and all-knowing has nothing to do with what God wants (God’s will for humans). Those are just two attributes of God.

It seems to me that you have not thought through what it means to be all knowing, all good, and all powerful. It means that any good outcome would be desired, and could be done. If it is NOT don't that means that one of those three properties does not hold.

You have NO IDEA what outcome God desires or how God would accomplish that, only God knows that. Some of it has been communicated to Baha’u’llah and that is how I know what God desires. The following is part of a transcript from an interview that an English orientalist (Edward Browne) had with Baha’u’llah in 1890. “We” refers to God and Baha’u’llah.

“We desire but the good of the world and the happiness of the nations; yet they deem Us a stirrer up of strife and sedition worthy of bondage and banishment…. That all nations should become one in faith and all men as brothers; that the bonds of affection and unity between the sons of men should be strengthened; that diversity of religion should cease, and differences of race be annulled—what harm is there in this?… Yet so it shall be; these fruitless strifes, these ruinous wars shall pass away, and the ‘Most Great Peace’ shall come…. Yet do We see your kings and rulers lavishing their treasures more freely on means for the destruction of the human race than on that which would conduce to the happiness of mankind…. These strifes and this bloodshed and discord must cease, and all men be as one kindred and one family…. Let not a man glory in this, that he loves his country; let him rather glory in this, that he loves his kind….” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. ix

God wants humans to accomplish what He desires for us by following the counsels of Baha’u’llah.

“My object is none other than the betterment of the world and the tranquillity of its peoples. The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 286

 

[ppp]

Baha’u’llah rote 15,000 tablets. Why would God reveal all of that to all of the 7.8 billion people in the world?

Do you just assume that humans would have the capacity to understand God if He spoke to them?

That's it? 15,000 pages? I read that in a year. And I read far less now than I did when I was a kid.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

And that should matter to me why? I am a Bahai, so I have updated information.

They cannot have errors because they were written by an inerrant Messenger of God. That is what I believe, I am a Bahai, so I have updated information.

The thing is that you cannot give me one good reason why God would/should communicate directly to everyone in the world instead of using Messengers yet I can (and I have) given you many reasons why God uses Messengers.........

The key words here are WHY SHOULD God do something as sensible as communicating to whomever needs to be communicated TO. And I keep coming with the same answer....of WHY NOT?

I only ever said that God does not need our belief, I never said that God does not care about us. God would not send Messengers if He did not care about us..

You are a Bahai, and I have no doubt that God is a Bahai too....otherwise why would He use Messengers?

I know exactly what God wants and what God wants and it does not come from me, it comes from a Messenger of God..

Oh of COURSE you do....silly me for not knowing that Got NO proof or good evidence for the existence of this God, and even LESS proof or good evidence for the claims of this so-called Messenger...yet you USE both examples to be companions of each other.

NOBODY except a Messenger of God could EVER understand God communicating to them. This is my belief and I have a basis from my belief. It came from God..

From the very same God for which you have already declared not having any proof of its existence....and we already know you have no proof that your so-called Messenger actually heard ANYTHING from this unprovable God. You're really on a ROLL with this sort of stuff, aren't you?

I do not need to prove that, I know without proof because I have evidence...

Hmmmmm, it seems to me that the ONLY reason you say you don't NEED to prove that, is simply because you don't HAVE any proof!~ But, yes, of course, you have "evidence"......been down that rabbit hole a number of times with you....and each time, come up empty-handed....no evidence of any value.

 

[F1fan]

Do you know what the message is? “I am God and I exist” is not the message.

Baha’u’llah rote 15,000 tablets. Why would God reveal all of that to all of the 7.8 billion people in the world?

Do you just assume that humans would have the capacity to understand God if He spoke to them?

God did find a way to communicate to humans, you just don’t like the way He communicated.

Now it's clear. A messenger is a unique person who won't be bored to death with 15,000 tablets to process.

I can't imagine why 15,000 tablets would be necessary. Moses only had two.

From what I've read of the writings they are not anything that an ordinary mortal could come up with.

 

[Trailblazer]

And I will accept that. But God would *want* to communicate to everyone, not from a need, but from simply being good.

You don’t know that, you only believe it, and there is no basis for such a belief. You simply believe that a Good God would want to communicate directly to everyone.

And if something good was not done, but something evil was allowed, that would show that God is unable to do the good thing, doesn't want to do the good thing (making him evil), or is unable to do the good thing.

So, if evil things happens where good things could have happened, then God either does not exist at all (my conclusion), is not all good, is not all knowing, or is not all powerful. [/quote]

You do not KNOW what is Good for you, only God knows that, since God created you in His image with the potential to be Good.

If evil things happen that is because God gave man free will to choose between good and evil. God could override free will and eliminate evil, but that is not what God chooses to do.

You are confident that such a God COULD make itself known, without any doubt! How do you know that? You don't know that, you just BELIEVE IT.

Just as you believe there is a God. All that shows is that we have conflicting beliefs.

I am not going to argue about the difference between the words know and believe. Nobody can ever prove that God exists but that does not mean they cannot know it because proof is not why some people know. Moreover, proof does not make God exist. Proof is just what some people require in order to believe that God exists.

While I see it as more childish to keep believing in a God that is indistinguishable from being non-existent.

It is not indistinguishable for believers just because it is indistinguishable for atheists.

 

[ppp]

Theists are defined as believers in religious concepts of one kind or another.

Well it's pretty meaningless to me.

Theist is specifically a person who believes in at least one god of some sort. Sun worshipper to Allah to Zeus to Quetzalcoatl. I don't that anyone believes in the flying spaghetti monster as a god, but if they do then they are a theist.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I am a Bahai, so I have updated information.
They cannot have errors because they were written by an inerrant Messenger of God. That is what I believe.
.. but it might help if you explained why it does not make sense to you.
.. why God would/should communicate directly to everyone in the world instead of using Messengers yet I can (and I have) given you many reasons why God uses Messengers.
I only ever said that God does not need our belief, ..
It has to do with what you think a God that 'good', 'knowing', 'powerful' WOULD DO.
What you are saying is that you would KNOW MORE than God if God existed. .. and if God does not exist this whole conversation is moot.

This is your only way out isn’t it because if God is all-knowing that means that God knows more than you know? You think you would know more than God if God existed. There are no words for this that won’t get me a moderator note. It is so incredible.

Tell me how you know what God would want, how you know what direct communication to everyone would accomplish. Tell me how you know that direct communication to everyone would be the BEST WAY to accomplish what God wants to accomplish, or does not even MATTER what God wants to accomplish?
This is all just ego projection because it is what YOU WANT.

I know exactly what God wants and what God wants and it does not come from me, it comes from a Messenger of God. NOBODY except a Messenger of God could EVER understand God communicating to them. This is my belief and I have a basis from my belief. It came from God.

I do not need to prove that, I know without proof because I have evidence.

I see no point in continuing this conversation if we are just going to continue going around the merry-go-round. You know my position and I know yours. My position is not subject to change because I know what I believe is true.

Yeah, that women are not equal to men and that the LGBTQ are abominations.
Yeah, that is what you believe, though neither your Allah, nor his messengers and nor you have any evidence that could satisfy anyone other than Bahais.
Because you have no evidence which can satisfy us, that is why it seems nonsense and charlatanry to atheists like me. And just as you are free to state your belief, we too are free to state our non-belief and the reasons for it. If there is charlatanry, scam, untruth, then I consider it my duty to high-light it so that other people are not fooled.
You believe in an imaginary entity and as I said in the other post, you can make him dance in Times Square.
If God does not need belief then why do your Iranian teacher wants all to have faith in him or in his Allah? Then what are you touting here?
An entity you imagine is a puppet in your hand. There is nothing good, bad, knowing, unknowing, powerful or weak about it. You can make it whatever you want.
That is as big an 'if' as it can be (here). Neither you nor your so-called manifestation has ever answered it. That makes all this conversation and your belief useless.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

Baha’u’llah rote 15,000 tablets. Why would God reveal all of that to all of the 7.8 billion people in the world?

There would be no NEED for God to do that. Each individual would have their own specific needs, which this God COULD (if it felt like it) address, directly. Why bother every OTHER Tom, Dick and or Harry, with information that does NOT pertain to them.
Your explanation, like all the rest, simply does NOT make much sense.

IF you'd only think about it...what makes you think that whatever the "message" God gave to this so-called messenger, would, could, SHOULD apply to each and every human being on this planet? That itself is stupid.

 

[F1fan]

You do not KNOW what is Good for you, only God knows that, since God created you in His image with the potential to be Good.

So a person has to guess what is good for them since God is not capable of communicating with the person if they are on the wrong path.

See how it is a useless method by God?

 

[Trailblazer]

OK, and the fact that he doesn't want to means that he doesn't care.

No, it does not mean that at all. It only means that God chose to communicate to Messengers because God knows that only Messengers can understand Him.

But failure to do certain things makes God negligent and thereby not good.

According to who? Who are you to judge God, you have it all backwards.

Why would God do what He does not want to do, who is there that can make him?
Why is that so difficult to understand?

What is so difficult to understand about such selfishness being evil?

So God is selfish and evil because He won't do what you want Him to do. Got it.

Only humans can be selfish and evil. God is all-good by his nature.

There is nothing odd about it, what is odd is people expecting the Almighty God, the Creator or the Universe, to speak to them directly.
And as yet not one atheist can answer me when I ask them why God would or should do that.

A *good* God would want to. And evil God would not. it is that simple.

Yet you cannot give me one Good Reason why a Good God would want to.

This is all ego projection.
A good God would want to do what you want it to do because you want it to do. Got it.

Give me just one reason why God should do that, other than that is what you want God to do.

Nope, it has to do with what it means to be good or evil.

Yet you cannot tell me why. A Good God would do what you want it to just like a good mommy would give Sally a lollipop just because she wants one.

 

[Trailblazer]

Because you keep on mentioning and do not provide evidence

I have provided the evidence over 100 times.

 

[F1fan]

There would be no NEED for God to do that. Each individual would have their own specific needs, which this God COULD (if it felt like it) address, directly. Why bother every OTHER Tom, Dick and or Harry, with information that does NOT pertain to them.
Your explanation, like all the rest, simply does NOT make much sense.

IF you'd only think about it...what makes you think that whatever the "message" God gave to this so-called messenger, would, could, SHOULD apply to each and every human being on this planet? That itself is stupid.

Totally inefficient, and no wonder so many people get things wrong.

And an almighty God can't manage to dumb down communication with humans to provide a little guidance?

 

[F1fan]

No, it does not mean that at all. It only means that God chose to communicate to Messengers because God knows that only Messengers can understand Him.

If God can't manage to make itself known to anyone then it's pretty useless. Seriously, how is this God useful to anyone?

 

[ppp]

Yet you cannot tell me why. A Good God would do what you want it to just like a good mommy would give Sally a lollipop just because she wants one.

It is intensely disingenuous to respond to someone talking about evil by referencing someone wanting a lollipop.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

If God can't manage to make itself known to anyone then it's pretty useless. Seriously, how is this God useful to anyone?

It sure has made an awful lot of preachers and televangelists wealthy, heh heh heh.......you DID ask

 

[Aupmanyav]

You simply believe that a Good God would want to communicate directly to everyone.
.. since God created you in His image with the potential to be Good.
If evil things happen that is because God gave man free will to choose between good and evil. God could override free will and eliminate evil, but that is not what God chooses to do.
Nobody can ever prove that God exists but that does not mean they cannot know it because proof is not why some people know. .. Proof is just what some people require in order to believe that God exists.

Bahais do not have a God which you will term as good. He works through commission agents. More clients, bigger the commission.
.. What is your evidence that any God created humans?
Free-will, and God washes his hands off all evils that happens. Why does the victim has to suffer the consequences of someone else's free-will? What about the natural disasters? How can your God wash his hands off that?
If no one can prove, then why believe in existence of God?
And if some people claim to know, what proof have they given for that?