Atheists: If God existed would God……

[F1fan]

No, but I have explained why nobody could understand what God was saying to them, many, many times. You are free to accept or reject my explanation, it makes no difference to me.

Well it is either the Messenger is lying, or God is incapable of communicating with other humans, which is highly odd. So I go with the former.

 

[Trailblazer]

Mebbie your questions are framed in the same sort of irrational logic that our shared fanatic on another forum uses and then wonders why no one is answering them.
Point a couple of your questions MY way, and lemme see what I can do with them.

No, these are straightforward questions. Look at how many times I asked the same question and never got a straight answer. This is Dotsman-style deflection, all atheists do it when they don't want egg on their faces.

#877 Trailblazer, Today at 2:18 PM

#882 Trailblazer, Today at 2:29 PM

#888 Trailblazer, Today at 2:36 PM

Policy said: What part of 'because you want it' is unclear? This isn't poetry. Just like the air is there because you want it, my conviction would be there because God wants it.

Trailblazer said:
How do you know what God wants?
How do you know that God wants you to know that He exists?
How do you know that if God wanted you to know that He exists He would have already convinced you that He exists?

Tell me know you know any of this.

Again, Why do you expect God to have already convinced you that He exists if God exists?

#897 Trailblazer, Today at 2:49 PM

 

[Sheldon]

My conscience is clear. I have already presented the evidence, innumerable times.
You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink.

All you have offered are subjective opinions, and hearsay. Calling what you have offered evidence, is extremely disingenuous. There is no objective difference between what you offered and what all other religions offer. I actually asked you to offer an objective difference, and all you did was spin off into endless unevidenced assertions, and then semantics.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

Yeah, everybody had great stories back then. And some of the Gods got down and personal with people. What's up with this Baha'i God. He's too "Holy" to come down and hang with us?

Apparently so.....if I read those Bahais correctly "their" God is the same as the Christian God.....they just tack on a few scriptures of their own to make it SEEM different <wink wink>

But all those people that believe in a different God... Those concepts of God aren't real. So, who are they praying to? An idea in their head?

Yep! That's about the size of it. Besides, I have come to the conclusion that "praying" is nothing but a 'placebo' for the mind.

But the Baha'i unknowable, invisible God is real? It doesn't even have to be real to have the same effect. People believe and follow the rules... All on faith.

ALL such Gods as far as I can ascertain are "unknowable, invisible, and quite adept at being very aloof as well
Believers ARE "sheep" doncha know?....even their scriptures call them that, heh heh heh. <sorry, couldn't resist that one>

 

[CG Didymus]

Other than that being a "logical" statement, It is really kind of pointless in this kind of a discussion

Then it says that if we seek, we will find. If we knock the door will be open. What's on the other side of the door? What do we find there? It can't be anything that proves God is real, because then it wouldn't be faith?

What it comes down to is we're not going to get any evidence, so what we're supposed to do is trust that the Baha'i prophet is telling the truth. If we don't do it, it is because we are blind and can't see the truth in his message. That message is the proof... along with his mission and his character and a zillion fulfilled prophecies. All it takes is that one leap of faith... God is real. Okay and one leap more... that the Baha'i prophet is telling the truth. As if taking that leap of faith is the sensible, logical, and rational thing to do?

No, people in other religions are telling us to do the same thing. Believe them and trust in the things that they say is true. They all can't be right. And they all can tell us why the other religions are wrong.

 

[Aupmanyav]

But God is not ever going to give you what you want ..
Why talk about God when you believe God does not exist and you don't accept the only evidence God provides?

I have already said that I (and other atheists) don't give two hoots for your God and manifestations. I believe God is imaginary and the so-called messengers are fakes.
I fail to see any reason that God or manifestations should be so constipated about providing evidence.

 

[Polymath257]

I already explained that.That is a Bible story, an anthropomorphism, meaning it is not what God ever said. God did not regret making mankind or make any mistakes. That is absurd.

Other religious people don't seem to find it absurd.

I am not a Christian. I reject much of the Bible as literal truth as I believe much of it is figurative and much of it is anthropomorphism. The Bible is not evidence of Messengers and God because it was written by fallible men, not by Messengers of God. As such it is fraught with errors.

God did communicate to everyone through a Messenger. Who are you to tell God that He should communicate in some other way?

And how do you know your scriptures aren't fraught with errors as well?

God wanted to do something and He did it. God sent Messengers to represent Him.

Yes, that is your belief. I find there to be no reason to think you are correct in that belief.

It is not a matter of disagreeing. It is not a dialogue when you just keep digging in your heels.

Both of us come from positions we are comfortable with. I see you as digging in your heels and you seem me as doing the same. I try to work from your position and explain why what you say doesn't make any sense to me.

I explained the logical reasons why God used Messengers and you can give me no logical reasons why God would communicate directly to everyone. You think that would be more effective and you cannot even explain WHY it would be more effective.

But I *did* give you what I consider to be logical reasons why a God that cares, is good, and is able *would* communicate. You rejected those reasons by simply claiming your position again and not by actually countering my argument. I consider that to be digging in heels.

What God would do is what we have evidence for. There is no evidence that God has ever communicated directly to everyone, and that means God did not do that if God exists.

Or that no God exists, or that God doesn't care, or that the message isn't important, or that God is unable. You leap to one explanation when there are several others that explain as much or more.

How does what I described make God uncaring? Can you answer that with a logical answer? Otherwise I will assume that the only reason you say that God is uncaring is because God does not do what you want Him to do.

Um, YOU were the one that said that God doesn't care. I agreed that is a good explanation.

The fact that God does not communicate directly to everyone, which is what you want, means God is not all-knowing? Demoting God to less than all-knowing because God does not do what you want Him to do? You are going to have to do better than that. Logically speaking, you are NOT all-knowing so you cannot know as much or more than God. The best you an say that you do not believe God exists because you don't believe there is any evidence.

Again, my wants have nothing to do with it. Remember that I don't believe in you mythology. Instead, it has to do with the meaning of the words 'good', 'knowing', 'powerful', etc. I agree that giving up any of those characteristics fits the facts better than having all of them.

I said: "Logically speaking, if communicating directly to everyone in the world was the BEST WAY to communicate then God would have communicated that way because an all-knowing God has to KNOW the best way to communicate to accomplish its goals...."

And so, logically, if the way seen is NOT the best way, then it doesn't involve a God that knows, is capable, and is good.

Try to refute my logic. Give me one good reason why God would not know the best way to communicate to the humans He created.

If God is not all-knowing, then it is a possible explanation for the inferior way of communication used.

Why are you deflecting from what I said?

I don't believe I am.

There is NOTHING logical about God communicating directly to everyone,

I disagree. As I explained, God would want to communicate with everyone (all good), would be able to do so in a way that was beneficial to everyone (all powerful), and would know the best way to accomplish that communication (all knowing).

it is all based on emotion...
"I WANT God to talk to me directly" like a little child who wants a lollipop.

Nope, that has NOTHING to do with it at all.

Who says I have a desire to believe in God? I believe in God because of the evidence, not because I want to. Just ask my husband who has spent many nights listening to me complaining about God and religion.

There are no facts about God because God can never be proven as a fact but there are facts about the Messengers who are Manifestations of God on earth.

You cannot prove that they *are* messengers from God unless you can prove there is a God. And, outside of their claims, there is no evidence they are messengers for anyone other than themselves.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

Okay, it has nothing to do with want, but it does have to do with expect.
The hundred-million dollar question is why you would expect it to have already convinced you that it exists.

I feel the wording is kinda sloppy there, giving the impression that one DOES "expect" God to convince one that He exists.
IOW, the way I see it, is that it APPEARS that this God doesn't really give a damn if anyone "believes He exists" or not....therefore does NOT make any effort to do it. It does put the believer in quite a spot though doesn't it? That is where that all-magical word FAITH comes into play isn't it?
Anyway, it would be MY opinion, that a person, ANY person, should not FEEL that this God OWES them an explanation for ANYTHING.....and certainly should not "expect" one, either.

 

[Polymath257]

There is information about Baha'u'llah and that is why I believe He was a Messenger of God
It is not a fact that God exists simply because it can never be proven to everyone.

OK, so it is not a fact that he is a messenger from God. It is a belief. What actual evidence is there to support that belief? You know, some fact that makes it more or less likely that the belief is true?

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't think that is really what he said...but rather how YOU are interpreting it.

All words require interpretation.

So now you are speaking for ALL "believers", correct?

No, I only speak for myself.

You feel safe in making that proclamation, simply because God has NOT tried to "convince" anyone that He exists. Doesn't mean that God would actually NEVER do that....so now you're speaking for God too?

Based upon His track record, God would never do that...
You can hope for that though.

Again, you are really only saying that because God has NOT made any effort to prove to anyone that He exists....NOT that He NEVER would. Never is a verrrrryyyyyy long time, ya know?

Based upon His track record, God would never do that...
You can hope for that though.

That has got to be one of the goofiest comments I think I have come across in a loooooong time.

The reason God does not prove He exists is because God wants our faith. If God proved He exists then we would no longer need faith.
There is nothing goofy about it, it is just what God wants, and you cannot do a Goddamn thing about it.

Actually there HAVE been scriptures posted on that BUE forum that explicitly declare that such and such SAW and SPOKE with God...and LIVED!

So if it was posted on BUE it must have really happened. Riiiiight!

I take it that you are unaware of HOW God got Kind David to come around to His way of thinking....and you surely cannot forget all the pain and suffering God put that Egyptian Pharaoh through just to get HIM to change his mind.
God has His ways......so don't say God wouldn't and doesn't "force"/"coerce" those who oppose Him to change their minds.
The very scripture attributed to this God that proclaims if you believe, you get to live.....if you don't believe, you die, is the very epitome of coercion, if you ask me.

The Bible is not my scripture. As far as I am concerned the Old Testament is complete anthropomorphism. God does not a man so God does not change His mind.

 

[Aupmanyav]

If atheists are so happy and they don't care of God exists, why are there over 800 posts on this thread in the span of a few days?
I would be a millionaire if I had a dollar for every time an atheist asked me for evidence that God exists ..

Because this is General Religious Debates forum. You start it with your topics and post.
I hope someone is giving you dollars for all efforts that you make here.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well humor me then and repeat it here if you don't mind. I speak fluent English and some broken Español...surely God is fluent in ONE of them, wouldn't ya think?

Nobody could EVER understand God if God communicated to them directly.

Only God's chosen Messengers can understand God speaking through the Holy Spirit and they can understand God because they have a divine mind. Nobody else has a divine mind so nobody else can understand God directly.

God sends Messengers who act like Mediators between God and man, and since they have a twofold nature, both divine and human, they can understand God and humans and they can relay communication from God back to humans.

 

[Sheldon]

God does not communicate in a human language.

God speaks directly to humans, over 2,000 times in the Old Testament there are phrases such as, "And God spoke to Moses" or "the word of the Lord came to Jonah" or "God said."

Jeremiah 1:9.

"Then the Lord put forth his hand, and touched my mouth. And the Lord said unto me, Behold, I have put my words in thy mouth."

Only Messengers can hear the Voice of God because they have a divine nature as well as a human nature.

Special pleading fallacy, they are human, if they understand some esoteric communication, why is there no objective evidence of this in the claims they make to be messengers, only human language, and human prejudice and fallibility.

God did not create humans with the capacity to understand Him directly because God does not want to speak to humans directly.

To claims, no evidence, a circular reasoning fallacy in fact.

God only does what God wants to do, not what humans want Him to do.

Him? an omnipotent and omniscient deity, that can't use human language, or make humans understand it, but yet has a male gender, and then does not communicate with humans, you claims have a special understanding, but yet this is not evidenced in their subjective claims to be messengers of a deity.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well it is either the Messenger is lying, or God is incapable of communicating with other humans, which is highly odd. So I go with the former.

God does not want to communicate to any other humans so He doesn't.
God only does what God wants to do.
Why would God do what He does not want to do, who is there that can make him?
Why is that so difficult to understand?

There is nothing odd about it, what is odd is people expecting the Almighty God, the Creator or the Universe, to speak to them directly.
And as yet not one atheist can answer me when I ask them why God would or should do that.
Give me just one reason why God should do that, other than that is what you want God to do.

 

[Polymath257]

'all powerful', 'all knowing' and 'all good'. does not mean that God would want to communicate directly to every human being on earth.

I disagree. It seems the quickest and most effective way to get a message out to everyone.

You cannot make that work no matter how hard you try....
It is nothing but an ego projection because it is what YOU BELIEVE such a God would do

I may not be able to make that work, but if God is all knowing, he would be able to find a way. And if he is all powerful, he would be able to accomplish it.

You stated that as an assertion -- "Since that has not happened, either God is no all good, is not all knowing, is not all powerful, of does not exist at all" -- but it is nothing more than a personal opinion.

Let's call it a belief.

You have NO IDEA what would happen if God communicated directly to everyone, and apparently you do not even bother to think about it....

• What if some people did not want to hear from God?
• How would anyone know it was God communicating?
• How could that ever bring world unity if everyone got their own personal message?
• If God communicated to everyone everything that He communicated to Baha'u'llah over the course of 40 years, when would they have any time to live their lives? The world would come to a complete standstill.

To date no atheist has ever been able to address any of these issues.
They just want what they want, like small children want a lollipop.

If any of those occurred, it would show that God is not all powerful or all knowing.

For example, God would know *how* to communicate in a way that each person would want and would be able to fit it to each individual. He would also, because he is all knowing, know what it would take to convince each person the message is from God and, being all powerful, be able to accomplish this. Again, if the desire of God is to bring world unity, being all knowing means he would know how to do it, and being all powerful, would be able to do it.

Why would God have to communicate exactly what was communicated to Baha'u'llah? Each person would get what they most need to know to bring the unity and knowledge necessary.

It seems to me that you have not thought through what it means to be all knowing, all good, and all powerful. It means that any good outcome would be desired, and could be done. If it is NOT don't that means that one of those three properties does not hold.

 

[Trailblazer]

God speaks directly to humans, over 2,000 times in the Old Testament there are phrases such as, "And God spoke to Moses" or "the word of the Lord came to Jonah" or "God said."

I thought we were done.
I do not believe what is in the Old Testament as actual history. I believe that God spoke to Moses and maybe the other prophets but what is in the Old Testament is anthropomorhisms, not a record of what God said or did.

Him? an omnipotent and omniscient deity, that can't use human language, or make humans understand it, but yet has a male gender, and then does not communicate with humans, you claims have a special understanding, but yet this is not evidenced in their subjective claims to be messengers of a deity.

What totally escapes atheists is that it does not matter that a God that is omnipotent can do anything.... an omnipotent God ONLY DOES what it wants to do, not what humans want it to do.

 

[Trailblazer]

Gee...that's about as "contrived" an explanation I think I have EVER heard...and I have heard a lot of them too, in my day.

I am not reading any more. I gave you what you asked for and all you can do is complain.

Happy Trails.

 

[CG Didymus]

I have come to the conclusion that "praying" is nothing but a 'placebo' for the mind.

Yeah, you know the whole religion is kind of a placebo. Of course, it might be true, but does it matter? Even if it's false it gets the people believing in it.

And the Bab and Baha'u'llah aren't they only ones making the claims of being prophets and Mahdis and the return of Christ. And one of them, the Ahmadiyya, has more followers than the Baha'i Faith. So, either way, one of them is false and fooling millions of people. Or, again, does it matter?

Like you say, if the sheep just follow and aren't some whacked out dangerous cult, what's it going to hurt? The people believe, feel good, and are trying to follow their God. But some religions have bigger aims. They believe they are destined to unite the world under one God and one religion.

Bahá’u’lláh’s principal mission in appearing at this time in human history is the realization of the oneness of mankind and the establishment of peace among the nations; therefore, all the forces which are focused on accomplishing these ends are influenced by His Revelation. We know, however, that peace will come in stages. First, there will come the Lesser Peace, when the unity of nations will be achieved, then gradually the Most Great Peace—the spiritual as well as social and political unity of mankind, when the Bahá’í World Commonwealth, operating in strict accordance with the laws and ordinances of the Most Holy Book of the Bahá’í Revelation, will have been established through the efforts of the Bahá’ís.​

I think it's worth making sure this guy is legit.

 

[Polymath257]

Why would God want to communicate directly to whoever is willing to listen? God does not NEED anyone listening to Him because God has no needs....

And I will accept that. But God would *want* to communicate to everyone, not from a need, but from simply being good.

This is ego projection, it is what YOU want, it is not what God wants, because if it was what God wanted God would have done it already.

And if something good was not done, but something evil was allowed, that would show that God is unable to do the good thing, doesn't want to do the good thing (making him evil), or is unable to do the good thing.

So, if evil things happens where good things could have happened, then God either does not exist at all (my conclusion), is not all good, is not all knowing, or is not all powerful.


God has already explained WHY He does not want to, but you reject that explanation.

You are confident that such a God COULD make itself known, without any doubt! How do you know that? You don't know that, you just BELIEVE IT.

Just as you believe there is a God. All that shows is that we have conflicting beliefs.

I believe that nobody except Messengers could EVER understand God speaking to them directly.It is the absolute truth. God, talk to me, God talk to me.... NOTHING could be more childish or more selfish.
I am not the one who should be ashamed of myself. It is the people who expect God to do what God has chosen NOT to do who should be ashamed. It is so sad that they cannot figure that out.

While I see it as more childish to keep believing in a God that is indistinguishable from being non-existent.

 

[Trailblazer]

I have already said that I (and other atheists) don't give two hoots for your God and manifestations.

Then why do you keep asking me about them?