Atheists: If God existed would God……

[TagliatelliMonster]

Okay. So I was on point.
So CG, if scientists cannot agree, even about evolution, why should anyone believe it, or anything else they believe, for that matter?

Evolution is pretty much accepted by overwhelming consensus in the scientific community.
What the heck are you on about?

 

[Sheldon]

I think that you are just pretending not to know..

So you can't offer even a cursory explanation? That says it all really.

Think what you like. What is the point in conversing,

Not for the first time I'm wondering if debate is something you have any interest in, and if not then a debate forum seems an odd forum to choose, given the number on offer here.

if you pretend not to know what "matters of the heart" are?

!!Goal posts being shifted alert!! What does "look into your heart" mean? What facts does this woolly metaphor hope to convey? Or is it rhetoric you've heard that sounded cool, but don't actually know what it means?

I suppose if I tell you I know the Qur'an by heart, you will say that my heart can't learn anything as it just pumps blood.

Is that a question?

 

[Sheldon]

scientists cannot agree, even about evolution,

That's nonsense. Species evolution through natural selection is accepted overwhelmingly by science, scientists could refer to anyone, including people who have no knowledge of nor expertise in the relevant areas of study. Only creationists deny the fact of species evolution, and if any "scientist" has any evidence that could falsify the theory they'd publish it and we would know. Turn on any news channel and it's obvious this hasn't happened in over 162 years of global scientific scrutiny, and theistic antipathy. The theory remains as scientifically valid now as it did when Darwin published his seminal work, and for the same reason, all the scientific evidence supports it.

Ever hear of project Steve, it should give you some idea of how ludicrous the creationist propaganda argument is, that there is disagreement over evolution in the scientific world?

 

[nPeace]

Vikings?


Science books.

Okay. My nephew has a science book! Let's see.

Okay, that's it. Closed books.
Like I was saying @CG Didymus, People get their heads filled with all sorts of stuff.

 

[Sheldon]

Okay. My nephew has a science book! Let's see.
View attachment 60086

Okay, that's it. Closed books.
Like I was saying @CG Didymus, People get their heads filled with all sorts of stuff.

Can you explain how light is visible to us from stars that are many billions of light years away, if the universe is not many billions of years old? Did your deity create the light en route?

 

[Trailblazer]

If the Baha'i Faith is true, it is supposed to be convincing us of the truth, that God is one, religion is one and humanity is one. But no, because Baha'is are only people, they find ways to muck up God's message.

If the Baha'i Faith is true, people should be interested in finding that out for themselves. That is just a convenient excuse for some people, blame the Baha'is, but it is completely illogical because nobody can muck up a message from God.

It is and has always been the responsibility of anyone who wants to know if the Baha'i Faith is true to determine that for themselves. The Baha'is are only responsible for proclaiming that Baha'u'llah has come and answering questions about the Baha'i Faith if people have any questions.

 

[Trailblazer]

Sorry, you may be right, but I’m seeing posters trying to show you where your statements are irrational and why they are irrational.

Some are trying to do that but some aren't. Some atheists have a sense of humility, but others think they know everything, as much or more than God would know if God existed.

Nobody has shown me why my statements are irrational. They just arrogantly believe that they have.

 

[Sheldon]

If the Baha'i Faith is true, people should be interested in finding that out for themselves.

Well that's almost trivially true, since it would true of all beliefs, and all religions. Of course what religious apologists always fail to acknowledge, is that one would need thousands if lifetimes to properly examine them all, so obviously they are applying this rationale only to the one they believe.

nobody can muck up a message from God.

You might want to consider what that means for the fallible nature of most religious texts, purported to be from a deity.

It is and has always been the responsibility of anyone who wants to know if the Baha'i Faith is true to determine that for themselves.

Nonsense, the person making the claim carries the burden of proof, and again you can't possibly have examined all religions properly, no one could even if they dedicated their entire life to it, so you don't apply your own criteria to thousands of deities and religions. And of course, like all theists, you can't demonstrate any objective difference between yours and the rest.

The Baha'is are only responsible for proclaiming that Baha'u'llah has come and answering questions about the Baha'i Faith if people have any questions.

Just the one, same as I ask anyone making any claim, what objective evidence can you demonstrate for any deity? So far you've not offered anything beyond subjective anecdotal evidence, same as all the rest really.

 

[Trailblazer]

I thought that what this poster’s remarks were quite illuminating, and I said so. It is illogical to assume that I am therefore obsessed with you and ‘bandying up with atheists’.

It is not illogical to assume that you are obsessed with me when you follow me from thread to thread and criticize me constantly. This is not about my beliefs, it is about ME. You can disagree with my beliefs all you want to and criticize them, but that is not what you are doing.

But when I was an atheist, I was an intelligent one. I am now a Christian, and an intelligent one.
That is what you have in common with most atheists, you 'believe' you are so intelligent.

So much for what Jesus said about humility.

Pointing out where I believe you are going wrong is not a personal attack, Tb.

But you don't point out where you believe I am going wrong and you don't explain why you think I am wrong, you only SAY I am wrong, illogical, etc. with zero evidence to back that up.

Pointing out why you think my BELIEFS are wrong is fair game, but you always make it personal.

 

[Trailblazer]

Just the one, same as I ask anyone making any claim, what objective evidence can you demonstrate for any deity?

What is subjective and objective evidence?

Subjective evidence is evidence that we cannot evaluate. In fact, we have two choices; to accept what somebody says or reject it. ... Objective evidence is evidence that we can examine and evaluate for ourselves.

Objective evidence - definition and meaning - Market ...

We can examine and evaluate the evidence for the Baha'i Faith for ourselves thus it is objective evidence

There is no empirical evidence for a deity, and any logical person would understand why.

Has Anyone Ever Seen God?

 

[Trailblazer]

That's not logic, in fact it involves a begging the question fallacy, ipso facto it is irrational by definition. Can you spot where you used the fallacy yet?

In my opinion, there can only be one true God who created the universe because an omnipotent/omniscient God does not need any helpers.

 

[Sheldon]

What is subjective and objective evidence?

Objective means not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts. The earth is not flat, for example, is an objective fact, regardless of anyone's subjective opinion or perspective, because the objective evidence supporting the assertion is overwhelming, and therefore more than sufficient to establish it as such.

 

[Sheldon]

We can examine and evaluate the evidence for the Baha'i Faith for ourselves thus it is objective evidence

That does not make it objective evidence for a deity. We can examine Harry Potter books, this doesn't make them objective evidence for wizardry.

Objective evidence is evidence that we can examine and evaluate for ourselves.

It is also not influenced by personal feelings or opinions when considering and representing facts.

 

[Trailblazer]

Objective means not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts. The earth is not flat, for example, is an objective fact, regardless of anyone's subjective opinion or perspective, because the objective evidence supporting the assertion is overwhelming, and therefore more than sufficient to establish it as such.

I was not referring to objective facts, I was referring to objective evidence.

God can never be proven as an objective fact because God does not want to be known as an objective fact.

 

[Trailblazer]

That does not make it objective evidence for a deity.

I never claimed that it was objective evidence for the deity.
There is no DIRECT objective evidence for a deity.

 

[ppp]

I was not referring to objective facts, I was referring to objective evidence.

God can never be proven as an objective fact because God does not want to be known as an objective fact.

You claim a lot of objective facts about a being that can never be known as an objective fact.

 

[Trailblazer]

It is also not influenced by personal feelings or opinions when considering and representing facts.

Everything is influenced by personal feelings or opinions.
For example, it is your personal opinion that if a deity existed it would be proven to exist but that is logically impossible if a deity exists because if a deity exists that deity has never been proven to exist...

Of course, if an omnipotent deity exists it could prove that it exists to everyone but what the deity could do is a moot point, as it only matters what a deity has done.

So the only logical options that are available to you are as follows:

1. A deity exists and has chosen not to prove it exists and that is why there is no proof, or
2. No deity exists and that is why there is no proof of the deity.

I vote for #1 based upon the Bible and the Baha'i Writings..

 

[Trailblazer]

You claim a lot of objective facts about a being that can never be known as an objective fact.

I did not claim an objective fact. That is my belief based upon scriptures and logical reasoning.
See what I just said to Sheldon.
#1917 Trailblazer, 3 minutes ago

 

[Trailblazer]

Fine. Then you simply state what you believe. You offer no reliable method for differentiating that which you correctly believe about your god or your assorted messengers from what you incorrectly believe about them. You know, evidence.

The correct method is to look at the evidence for yourself but not everyone will come to the same conclusions... Why would they?

 

[Trailblazer]

That is merely a statement of what you believe.

Of course I believe it, why else would I post it?
I can only explain why God does x according to what I believe.