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Atheists: If God existed would God……

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The Spirit of Truth is the Holy Spirit, third Person of the Trinity, who came at Pentecost, 50 days after Easter. (From Greek pentekoste, "fiftieth").
Jesus promised to send the Spirit of truth and Jesus said what he would do when he came.

John 16:13-14 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.


One of the various proofs that Baha’u’llah was the Spirit of truth is that Baha’u’llah did EXACTLY what Jesus said the Spirit of truth would do.

Referring to Jesus as the Son of Man, Baha’u’llah glorified Jesus.

We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86
 

samtonga43

Well-Known Member
John 16:13-14 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

"When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you".

Context is key to understanding..
The word 'you' refers to...?
Have a look at the whole chapter. In what circumstances were these words spoken.
Why were these words said?
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
No, I can’t do that and I don’t need to since I accept that some things that actually exist are outside the scope of logic and science.
The word isn't accept, it is believe. All this is doing is supporting my point; You will use logic and science for as long as (you think) it supports your religious beliefs but the moment it doesn't, you fall back to special pleading or unjustified exceptions. If you're only going to selectively apply science and logic when it's convenient, you shouldn't claim to be using them at all.

Believers do not claim that God wants to end suffering or prove that He exists to everyone.
Some do, and some certainly seem to imply it when God is defined as unconditionally good or when they have revealed or proselyting religions.

According to my beliefs...
This thread isn't about your beliefs though, it's about what "atheists" think and logically and factually consistent concept of God could be. You beliefs can't be meaningfully applied to the question you asked, especially when you claim elements of them are "beyond logic".

God created humans knowing they would inevitably commit evil, but God is not responsible for that evil because God does not commit evil deeds, humans do. What God knows that humans will do does not cause humans to do what they do. There is no logical connection.
There is more than a logical connection, there is a direct connection. God took and action knowing what the result would be. God's omniscience renders the time and number of steps between his action and those consequences irrelevant. From his point of view, they effectively all occur at once.

God knows what is ultimately going to happen because God is all-knowing, but it has not happened until it actually happens. The choice is only fixed after it is made.
The concepts of "before" and "after" would be meaningless to God who created and exists outside time. God would have known every choice ever made (and that ever will be made) at the very start of existence. He would know all of the events and choices that would lead up to a specific choice and all of the chains of consequence that lead from it.

If humans were not responsible for their moral choices there would be no courts of law where humans are held accountable for their choices.
Those laws aren't based on the assumption that there is an omnipotent being in control of everything (even the religious based ones - if humans were rational, we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place).

No, it does not need to be seen with the human eye to be within the scope of science, but there is no reason to believe that everything in existence is within the scope of science.
There is no reason to believe anything is outside the scope of science so if you want to assert a specific thing that is, you need some kind of reasoning to say so. Otherwise, you just have another empty belief.

Everything is known by the omniscient God but everything cannot be known by humans because humans have limitations regarding what they are able to comprehend.
This is just another of those convenient barriers when a faith can't be logically supported. It's all because believing there is a benevolent deity looking after everything is less scary than accepting all the things that are outside everyone's understanding and control.

In the future more of God’s truth will be revealed, more and more in each successive age. There is no limit to what humans can comprehend, but it cannot be revealed all at once, it has to be revealed in stages.
You're contradicting yourself now. First "humans have limitations regarding what they are able to comprehend" but not "There is no limit to what humans can comprehend".

I think you have a misunderstanding. I do not dismiss logic or science and neither one is inconvenient to my beliefs. You can question anything you want to. I am going to adhere to what I believe about God but that does not mean I am not open to any arguments I consider reasonable.
I think you misunderstand why you have been told to believe what you do. As I said earlier, the entire concept of asserting that some aspects of your faith are beyond science and logic is essentially dismissing science and logic because if you can make that assertion, so can literally anyone else; "The Big Bang Theory is fact, it's just that the elements we don't understand yet are beyond science!".
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
"When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you".

Context is key to understanding..
The word 'you' refers to...?
Have a look at the whole chapter. In what circumstances were these words spoken.
Why were these words said?
Even if Jesus was addressing the disciples, you does not refer only to the disciples. If it did that would mean that only the disciples were guided unto all truth, but Christians claim they were ALL guided unto all truth by the Spirit of truth that they believes lives inside of them.

Yes, you have to read the full chapter in context after which time it becomes abundantly clear that it is referring a man who would come in the future who would bring the Holy Spirit just as Jesus had brought it before.

John 16 King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.


This person would be the Comforter and the Spirit of truth. We know from other verses in John that the Comforter and the Spirit of truth are the same person.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

The Holy Spirit that was sent at Pentecost did not testify of anyone because a free-floating Holy Spirit cannot speak or hear or shew you things to come or testify of Jesus Only a man can speak and hear and shew you things to come. Only a man can testify and that is exactly what Baha'u'llah did. Referring to Jesus as the Son of Man, He wrote:
"We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified."
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 86

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Another Trinitarian Christian once said to me: Jesus spoke to those disciples, not to us, so the promise was to them.

I said: No, it was not only for the disciples. This line of reasoning simply will not work because:

(1) it makes no sense that a Holy Spirit living inside of people could do the following things that are in John 14, 15 and 16; only a person could do those things:

· Teach you all things
· Call to remembrance what Jesus said
· Testify of Jesus
· Glorify Jesus, receive of Jesus, and shew it unto you
· Guide you into all truth
· Speak what He hears and shew you things to come
· Reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment

(2) Moreover, and this is an important point, if this was to apply only to the disciples we know that the things on bulleted list above [that you say the Holy Spirit did during the lifetime of the disciples] did not happen during their lifetimes. We know that, because that stuff was not supposed to happen until Christ returned. However, all those things Baha’u’llah has already done or will happen as the result of His coming.

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I defer to Abdu’l-Baha, who was the Centre of the Covenant of Baha’u’llah, for the best explanation of what these verses in John mean, as He was appointed by Baha’u’llah as the interpreter of His Writings. Please note how he uses logic in his explanation.

Commentary on Verses of John
by Abdu'l-Bahá

The Master quotes:[1]

“Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you;[2] but if I depart, I will send him unto you.[3] And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgement: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth,[4] is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.”[5]

The concourse of the Gospel have presently fallen lost in the wilderness of error and purblindness and thus have considered as naught[6] these assertions of the Gospel which are explicitly clear and without allusiveness. This concourse of Christians have clung to interpretations based on their own imaginings.[7] Thus they say that the purpose of the above verses is the descent of the Holy Spirit, the descent that occurred after the ascension of His holiness Christ upon the disciples.[8] This is in truth the customary way of all peoples[9] and religious communities in that they close their eyes to the strong and firm meanings of the divine verses and then they adhere to suppositional[10] and dubious interpretations. Now you should consider how much their assertion is trivial and invalid:

Firstly. He sayeth: He shall not come unless I go away. This utterance indicates that He, the Spirit, the Comforter was not there at the time of Christ[11] and that He would come afterwards. But the Holy Spirit was inseparably and always co-existing with Christ.[12] So there would otherwise be no meaning to the saying: He shall not come unless I go away.

Secondly. He said: I have many things to explain to you but you do not possess the capacity to bear them; but that Sanctified Spirit of Truth will expound these things and lead you into all truth.

Now consider further: In accord with Christian Teaching, the Holy Spirit is the Third Hypostasis[13] and the Spirit Jesus Christ is the Second Hypostasis.[14],[15],[16] Could it be the case that after all the training imparted by the two Hypostases[17] the veils of ignorance and lack of knowledge were not torn asunder and the disciples were not confirmed with the full guidance of truth?[18] Were they then after the ascension of that Supreme Luminary receiving the hidden unseen mysteries and the concealed and sealed Lordly wisdoms from the Third Hypostasis? Did they then only become able to hear these truths? Rather it is obvious[19] that if under the shade of guidance of that Essence of Essences and the Spirit of Spirits and with all the confirmations of the Holy spirit if souls be not educated and trained, and, if the soul’s dark veils were still not burned away, then the breaths of the Holy spirit [alone] would have no effect for a hundred thousand years. And herein is manifest and recognizable truth.

Thus it has become clear and proven from those blessed Johannine verses that after the Beauty of Jesus another Honoured Soul and Great Beauty will appear Whose training will be even greater than the education imparted by Christ, the Spirit of God.

Thirdly He said: That Comforter will not speak from Himself. That means He shall be aided by the hosts of divine Revelation. He shall declare and expound all that reaches His Blessed Hearing from the Kingdom of Glory.

Consider again, how clear it is. This means that that Comforting Spirit is a Person[20] Who will be inspired with heavenly Inspirations and be the Repository of Lordly Revelations. Further, the Holy Spirit doth not have ears with which to hear.[21] The references that the disciples adduced as proof from the Torah with respect to the Advent of Christ were never with this degree of explicitness.

Commentary on Verses of John
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The word isn't accept, it is believe. All this is doing is supporting my point; You will use logic and science for as long as (you think) it supports your religious beliefs but the moment it doesn't, you fall back to special pleading or unjustified exceptions. If you're only going to selectively apply science and logic when it's convenient, you shouldn't claim to be using them at all.
That’s right. I believe that some things that actually exist are outside the scope of logic and science, things like God and the soul and the afterlife, which are a mystery.

Special pleading is an informal fallacy wherein one cites something as an exception to a general or universal principle, without justifying the special exception.[1][2][3][4][5] It is the application of a double standard.[6][7]
Special pleading - Wikipedia

It is not special pleading because (a) there is no universal principle stating that logic and science applies to everything in existence, and (b) I did explain why God and the soul are special exceptions.
Some do, and some certainly seem to imply it when God is defined as unconditionally good or when they have revealed or proselyting religions.
Yes, that is true of some religions like Christianity but my religion does not teach that God wants to end suffering or prove that He exists to everyone.
This thread isn't about your beliefs though, it's about what "atheists" think and logically and factually consistent concept of God could be. Your beliefs can't be meaningfully applied to the question you asked, especially when you claim elements of them are "beyond logic".
I don’t know which question you are referring to, the questions in the OP?

1. If God existed would God communicate directly to everyone?
2. If God existed would God prove that He exists to everyone?

I only ever said that I believe that the Essence of God is beyond logic, since it can never be known, but the attributes of God are not beyond logic since they can be known, according to my beliefs.
There is more than a logical connection, there is a direct connection. God took and action knowing what the result would be. God's omniscience renders the time and number of steps between his action and those consequences irrelevant. From his point of view, they effectively all occur at once.
God gave man free will knowing what he result would be but God does not make our choices, we do. God knowing what the result would be does not cause anything to take place. Humans cause the events by choosing and acting on their choices.

The omniscient God has always known what those choices would be but God’s knowledge is not the cause.
The concepts of "before" and "after" would be meaningless to God who created and exists outside time. God would have known every choice ever made (and that ever will be made) at the very start of existence. He would know all of the events and choices that would lead up to a specific choice and all of the chains of consequence that lead from it.
I agree. From God’s perspective there is no before and after since God exists outside of time. The essential knowledge of God surrounds the realities of all things, before and after their existence in this world. However, humans reside on a different plane of existence so from a human perspective these events have not taken place until they take place in this material world.
Those laws aren't based on the assumption that there is an omnipotent being in control of everything (even the religious based ones - if humans were rational, we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place).
Those laws certainly are based upon the existence of God. Haven’t you ever heard of the Ten Commandments? The Bible God is an omnipotent God who is in control of everything, a God who gave man free will to make moral choices.
There is no reason to believe anything is outside the scope of science so if you want to assert a specific thing that is, you need some kind of reasoning to say so. Otherwise, you just have another empty belief.
There is no reason to believe everything in existence is within the scope of science so if you want to assert that everything is within the scope of science, you need some kind of reasoning to say so.

I have already explained why I believe that certain things (e.g., God, the soul, and the afterlife) are beyond the scope of science, because they cannot be studied by science.
This is just another of those convenient barriers when a faith can't be logically supported. It's all because believing there is a benevolent deity looking after everything is less scary than accepting all the things that are outside everyone's understanding and control.
I think that it is atheists who cannot accept all the things that are outside everyone's understanding and control and that is why they think they can encapsulate everything with logic and that everything is within the scope of science. As a believer I fully accept all the things that are outside everyone's understanding and control and believing in a benevolent deity does not change that. It does not make anything less scary because the deity is not rescuing anyone from the realities of everyday living.
You're contradicting yourself now. First "humans have limitations regarding what they are able to comprehend" but not "There is no limit to what humans can comprehend".
I should not have said “no limit” because humans have limits as to what they are able to comprehend. For example, we cannot comprehend the Essence of God and we cannot comprehend infinity, or how God came to exist, but as humans evolve spiritually and materially over time they can comprehend more and more. That is why truth is revealed by God in stages rather than all at once.
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
That’s right. I believe that some things that actually exist are outside the scope of logic and science, things like God and the soul and the afterlife, which are a mystery.
Your beliefs are irrelevant and I'm not going to respond to them any more. You asked questions about logic. If you're proposing something exists beyond logic, it is irrelevant to your questions (or renders the questions fundamentally dishonest).

It is not special pleading because (a) there is no universal principle stating that logic and science applies to everything in existence, and (b) I did explain why God and the soul are special exceptions.
Logic does apply to everything in the universe by definition - it would be useless without that principle since the moment you have one thing beyond logic, that thing could render anything else beyond logic. The entire point of logic is that it is constant and repeatable.

You've not explained why anything is beyond science or logic, you've merely made circular assertions that they are. If they were beyond logic, you couldn't explain why since that would require logic. Without logic, all you have is belief.

I only ever said that I believe that the Essence of God is beyond logic, since it can never be known, but the attributes of God are not beyond logic since they can be known, according to my beliefs.
The whole essence vs attributes is an undefined distinction anyway but I don't see how the "essence" wouldn't influence the "attributes" and could therefore render them beyond logic too.

God gave man free will knowing what he result would be but God does not make our choices, we do.
If God creates everything, that includes everything that causes our "choices". God is capable of creating people who would make any different set of choices throughout their lives but has chosen to create the people who will make the choices we do, good, bad and indifferent.

I agree. From God’s perspective there is no before and after since God exists outside of time. The essential knowledge of God surrounds the realities of all things, before and after their existence in this world. However, humans reside on a different plane of existence so from a human perspective these events have not taken place until they take place in this material world.
Sure, but we're not talking about perspective, we're talking about absolute reality. We can certainly have the perception of free will but that perception could be artificial, all our "choices" actually being predetermined from the outset. And if there is (or could be) anything that is omnipotent, those "choices" must be predetermined.

Those laws certainly are based upon the existence of God. Haven’t you ever heard of the Ten Commandments? The Bible God is an omnipotent God who is in control of everything, a God who gave man free will to make moral choices.
Yes, and as I said, we're not rational beings. Monotheistic religion in general is guilty of the same internal contradictions you're demonstrating here - God has control of everything yet is somehow not responsible for everything (though we're expect to thank him for the good ones).

There is no reason to believe everything in existence is within the scope of science so if you want to assert that everything is within the scope of science, you need some kind of reasoning to say so.
Again, science is an abstract principle. It doesn't do anything, it is just a tool that can be used. All it requires is the ability to observe the matter in question and the intelligence to understand it. By definition, anything that could be observed by any kind of intelligence (which would include God) is potentially within the scope of science.

I should not have said “no limit” because humans have limits as to what they are able to comprehend.
Maybe you should just get your story straight before making all of these assertions and then you could avoid making all of these contradictory statements.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
I think that it is atheists who cannot accept all the things that are outside everyone's understanding and control and that is why they think they can encapsulate everything with logic and that everything is within the scope of science.

Beyond your unevidenced beliefs, what can you demonstrate to exist outside the nautural physical material universe? As anything in it is within the scope of scientific scrutiny, that is axiomatic if you can read and understand a dictionary.

Logic is a method of reasoning that adheres to strict principles of validation. What is outside it is irrational, by definition, again if one can read and understand a dictionary.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
I think that it is atheists who cannot accept all the things that are outside everyone's understanding and control and that is why they think they can encapsulate everything with logic and that everything is within the scope of science.

Beyond your unevidenced beliefs, what can you demonstrate to exist outside the natural physical material universe?


So you cannot demonstrate that anything is outside of the scope of science then, obviously.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
So you cannot demonstrate that anything is outside of the scope of science then, obviously.
Anything that is outside the natural physical material universe is outside of the scope of science.
Nothing that is outside the natural physical material universe is demonstrable.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
I have already explained why I believe that certain things (e.g., God, the soul, and the afterlife) are beyond the scope of science,

Nothing that is outside the natural physical material universe is demonstrable.

So your deity is in no way demonstrable, thought so.

That’s right. I believe that some things that actually exist are outside the scope of logic and science, things like God and the soul and the afterlife, which are a mystery.

How can you both claim to believe things about those concepts are true, and at the same time claim they are a mystery? :facepalm:
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
So your deity is in no way demonstrable, thought so.
The attributes of God are seen in the Messengers of God but the Essence of God forever remains hidden. God is a mystery no man can ever fathom. The Messengers of God do not even know the Essence of God.
How can you both claim to believe things about those concepts are true, and at the same time claim they are a mystery? :facepalm:
Some things remain a mystery but that does not mean they don't exist. God and the soul and the spiritual world remain a mystery while we are living in this world but they will no longer be a mystery when we get to the next world. The next world is the World of Lights.
 

samtonga43

Well-Known Member
(Missed this!)

Even if Jesus was addressing the disciples, you does not refer only to the disciples.
Yes, it really does. Scripture is written FOR us – not TO us .
None of the Bible Was Written to You And That's a Good Thing

If it did that would mean that only the disciples were guided unto all truth
No, it would not.
but Christians claim they were ALL guided unto all truth by the Spirit of truth that they believes lives inside of them.
Christians are guided by God.
The Holy Spirit is the third Person of the Trinity. He is God.
The Father is God
The Son is God
The Spirit is God.
Scripture is clear that Jesus is God (John 20:28; Titus 2:13; Hebrews 1:8)
Scripture is clear that He is truly human (Romans 1:2–4; 1 John 4:2–3).
Jesus claimed the divine name (John 8:58)
Jesus did things that only God can do (Mark 2:1–12; Luke 7:48–50).
Jesus also displayed the vulnerabilities common to humanity (Luke 19:41; John 19:28).
Yes, you have to read the full chapter in context after which time it becomes abundantly clear that it is referring a man who would come in the future who would bring the Holy Spirit just as Jesus had brought it before.
Not just a man. Fully man / Fully God
…waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ (Titus 2:13)
Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:28)
But of the Son he says,"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom". Hebrews 1:8
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
The attributes of God are seen in the Messengers of God but the Essence of God forever remains hidden. God is a mystery no man can ever fathom. The Messengers of God do not even know the Essence of God.

Those are just subjective unevidenced assertions, you just asserted unequivocally that your deity is in no way demonstrable,

Some things remain a mystery but that does not mean they don't exist.

That wasn't your claim though, so again how can you both claim to believe things about those concepts are true, and at the same time claim they are a mystery?

God and the soul and the spiritual world remain a mystery while we are living in this world but they will no longer be a mystery when we get to the next world.

Another bar claim, and again it either is a mystery, or you know things about it, it cannot be both.

The next world is the World of Lights.

I have no idea what this unevidenced claim even means sorry.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
(Missed this!)
Yes, it really does. Scripture is written FOR us – not TO us .
None of the Bible Was Written to You And That's a Good Thing


No, it would not.

Christians are guided by God.
The Holy Spirit is the third Person of the Trinity. He is God.
The Father is God
The Son is God
The Spirit is God.
Scripture is clear that Jesus is God (John 20:28; Titus 2:13; Hebrews 1:8)
Scripture is clear that He is truly human (Romans 1:2–4; 1 John 4:2–3).
Jesus claimed the divine name (John 8:58)
Jesus did things that only God can do (Mark 2:1–12; Luke 7:48–50).
Jesus also displayed the vulnerabilities common to humanity (Luke 19:41; John 19:28).

Not just a man. Fully man / Fully God
…waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ (Titus 2:13)
Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:28)
But of the Son he says,"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom". Hebrews 1:8
Anyone can use the Bible to TRY to prove anything they want to by cherry-picking verses to suit their fancy.
I have no need to prove anything about Jesus because I already know that Jesus was a Manifestation of God, as revealed by Baha'u'llah and as written in the Bible.

Jesus was like a clear mirror, and God became visible in the mirror. This is why Jesus said, “The Father is in the Son” (John 14:11, John 17:21), meaning that God is visible and manifest in Jesus.

“I and my Father are one” (John 10:30) means that Jesus and God are one and the same, so whatever pertains to Jesus, all His acts and doings, are identical with the Will of the Father. Jesus and God also share the same Holy Spirit, so in that sense they are one and the same. Jesus also shares the Attributes of God so in that sense they are one and the same. The verse below says that God was manifest in the flesh; it does not say that God became flesh. God cannot become flesh because God is and has always been immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived, everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Scripture is clear that Jesus was not God. Trinitarian Christians have to misinterpret scripture to maintain that Jesus was God. I already covered this so there is no need to do it again.

#1800 Trailblazer
#1801 Trailblazer
Jesus is not God Bible verses

If you want to claim that Jesus was God you cannot do it without being illogical. Here is why:

Certain attributes are unique to God. Only God is Eternal, Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, All-Powerful, All-Knowing, All-Wise, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, and Immaterial, so nobody except God can have those attributes.

Jesus did not have any of these attributes so logic tells us that Jesus was not God.

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I am not going to argue with you about who the Spirit of truth was. You know what I believe and I know what you believe and neither one of us is going to change our beliefs.
You are free to believe whatever you want to believe, as am I.
You cannot prove you are right nor can I because religions beliefs are not subject to proofs.

These beliefs about who Jesus or the Spirit of truth was really don't matter at the end of the day, unless they prevent us from recognizing who Baha'u'llah was.

I have recognized BOTH Jesus and Baha'u'llah so I will be sitting pretty when the curtain call comes. :)
 
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