Atheists: If God existed would God……

[Heyo]

You see those as problems but that does not mean they ARE actually problems...
I can come up with a reason why all those so-called problems exist.

Mostly by inventing new assumptions.

Based on logic I believe in the existence of a deity like the one my scriptures describe.

Based on faulty logic ...

I have warned you, don't try to apply logic to religion, it leads to atheism/Agnosticism.

 

[Trailblazer]

Based on faulty logic ...

What is faulty about my logic?

I have warned you, don't try to apply logic to religion, it leads to atheism/Agnosticism.

I am not applying logic to religion, but that does not mean that a religion cannot be logical (make sense).
If my religion did not make sense to me then I would be an agnostic or an atheist, or maybe a deist.

 

[Heyo]

I doubt I will have any answers that are acceptable to you but I will get back to you on that later, if I ever dig my way our from under all these posts.

It's been very quiet on RF the last two month. Seems people are awakening from their hibernation. I should do some work, just this one thread ... damn, there just appeared another page full of posts.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's an argument that a God that could communicate more effectively than that and wants to doesn't exist.

You only imagine that some other kind of communication would be more effective, you do not know that. It is only your personal opinion, not a fact.

We know that if a deity exists, it either cannot communicate directly to human beings or is uninterested in doing so.

That is correct.

And I answered you. I answered your question and more. You seem to object.

The only thing I object to is atheists who say what God should do, as if that could ever know more than God. With atheists it is always about what God could do because God is omnipotent but they completely disregard that God is also omniscient so God knows everything, which means that it is logically impossible for them to know more than God since nobody can know more than everything

Who are you to tell the Almighty God, the Creator of the universe, what He should do?

A guy who knows how to communicate effectively. Of course, I don't believe in gods and so don't tell them what they should do. My advice is for anybody that wants to be heard and understood. I would give the same advice to you if you asked me how your words could get to more people. We could add additional discussion sites. You could start a blog or podcast. You might try to get a book published. But I wouldn't advise you to to find a messenger. Do it yourself, as directly as possible. Perhaps an infomercial. I'm sure that deities can do at least that well.

But since you are not God you do not know what would be the most effective kind of communication for God to employ towards humans in order to accomplish what God wants to accomplish. Moreover you do not know anything about God do you don't know that God could communicate directly to humans and be heard.

You just believe like all atheists that God is omnipotent so God can do anything. Even if God can do anything that does not mean that humans can do anything and humans cannot understand God directly communicating to them. Moreover, if you heard a voice and it said it was God, how would you know it was God and not an auditory hallucination? You would not know, you could never know that it was really God. Sadly, atheists who believe this way have not really thought this through.

Do you think you can know more than an all-knowing God regarding the *best way* to communicate to humans?

Apparently - if you think that a deity would communicate to man through a human messenger telling people what this deity told him to tell them. Imagine there really were such a deity and it choosing that path. It's not an idea to seriously entertain unless you have to. Baha'is have chosen to believe that happened, and so are compelled to believe that a deity not only would do that, but did. You're not alone. Many other religions have done the same, and also tell us that a deity has communicated to humanity through other people.

It is incredible that you think you know more than all the religious people know about what God would do if God existed.

You do not believe that God would use Messengers or some other kind of Intermediary because you think that God would speak directly to humans, but there is no basis for such a belief. You believe that would be more effective, but you do not know that, you just believe that, based upon no evidence whatsoever.

By contrast, what we have evidence of is that God has used Messengers or Prophets throughout human history, and as a result about 93% of people in the world believe in God. The 7% of people who are atheists are outliers and they believe that they are right and all the believers are wrong. That is an untenable belief.

Mind you, I am not saying that God exists is true because most people believe that God exists is true, because that would be the fallacy of ad populum. I am saying that there is a good reason why 93% of people in the world believe that God exists, and it is because God has communicated to them via Messengers or Prophets since the dawn of human history.

 

[Heyo]

I believe that will happen eventually. I wish I could live long enough to see that day but I won't.

Meanwhile, what are you doing to make it happen?

 

[Aupmanyav]

A vendor does not set up shop on a vacant street corner.

What merchandise are you vending? Does it profit you monetarily? If it does, I would also put my cart near your cart.

 

[Trailblazer]

It's been very quiet on RF the last two month. Seems people are awakening from their hibernation. I should do some work, just this one thread ... damn, there just appeared another page full of posts.

I have noticed the lack of activity and I actually got bored and went back to the other forums I had been on before I came here, although I have been going back and forth.

I got the idea to post this thread because there is an atheist I had been posting to for about seven years on those other forums who insists that if God existed God would communicate directly to everyone and/or prove He exists to everyone in some way. So I wanted to see if atheists here would agree with him, but I never imagined I would get swamped like this!

 

[Heyo]

What position? So do you agree that religions should merge?

I'm an Agnostic. My position is that I don't know what a god is - and neither does anyone else. My evidence is the multitude of religions who all have different and contradictory images of the god(s). The moment they get together and work out what god really is, I lose that evidence and my position gets seriously weakened. But as it stands the number of religions and denominations expands like the universe and there is no hint that it will stop or reverse.

 

[Trailblazer]

What merchandise are you vending? Does it profit you monetarily? If it does, I would also put my cart near your cart.

I have no merchandise, all I can offer is my company and ideas.
I do not need any money, I already have too much money.

 

[Trailblazer]

Meanwhile, what are you doing to make it happen?

I am doing the most important thing I can do, carry the message of Baha'u'llah as best I can.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm an Agnostic. My position is that I don't know what a god is - and neither does anyone else. My evidence is the multitude of religions who all have different and contradictory images of the god(s). The moment they get together and work out what god really is, I lose that evidence and my position gets seriously weakened. But as it stands the number of religions and denominations expands like the universe and there is no hint that it will stop or reverse.

I have never heard of an Agnostic being described that way. I always thought that an Agnostic was someone who does not know if God exists or someone who believes it not possible to know if God exists or not.

I do not know what God is either, I just believe that God exists. I believe certain things about God, but those do not define what God is. One of my beliefs about God is that we can never know what the Essence of God is, but we can know some of the Attributes of God. through what Messengers of God reveal.

I never had the problem you have with being confused by all the different religious beliefs because I never had any religious belief until I became a Baha'i over 51 years ago, and after that I had no need to look at other religions and no interest in doing so. I only started to look at other religions since I came to forums about nine years ago.

As a Baha'i, I understand why there are so many religions and sects within those religions so it does not affect my faith in God at all.

 

[Heyo]

I am doing the most important thing I can do, carry the message of Baha'u'llah as best I can.

And you assume that saying "This is the correct religion, all the others are wrong, come join us." is achieving the merger with other religions? (While talking mostly to atheists not other religious people.)
As I said, merging will require to be able to say that you've been wrong. It will require to talk to religious people who are near to you in belief and find a synthesis. Rinse and repeat until there is only one religion.
The fact that only a vanishing small number of theists have ever thought about this strengthens my position very much. Not only don't you know what a god is, you don't want to.

 

[Heyo]

I have never heard of an Agnostic being described that way.

It is the original description by Huxley: ignorance of the existence or nature of god.

I always thought that an Agnostic was someone who does not know if God exists or someone who believes it not possible to know if God exists or not.

That is the colloquial definition. It ignores the "or nature" part of the original.

I do not know what God is either, I just believe that God exists. I believe certain things about God, but those do not define what God is. One of my beliefs about God is that we can never know what the Essence of God is, but we can know some of the Attributes of God. through what Messengers of God reveal.

That is the other part of Huxley's philosophy: don't make up things when you don't know.

 

[Trailblazer]

And you assume that saying "This is the correct religion, all the others are wrong, come join us." is achieving the merger with other religions? (While talking mostly to atheists not other religious people.)

I do not say "This is the correct religion, all the others are wrong" since that is not what I believe. I say that I believe that the Baha'i Faith is the latest religion that God has revealed, the religion that has the message that humanity needs in this age, and has the social teachings and laws that are suited to this age. I say I believe that the older religions do not have the message humanity needs in this new age but the spiritual teachings of all the religions are the same so they will always be pertinent in every age.

I prefer talking to atheists because other religious people are mired in their own religions, so what is there to discuss? Most believers are certain they have the only true religion and I do not like to argue..

As I said, merging will require to be able to say that you've been wrong. It will require to talk to religious people who are near to you in belief and find a synthesis. Rinse and repeat until there is only one religion.
The fact that only a vanishing small number of theists have ever thought about this strengthens my position very much. Not only don't you know what a god is, you don't want to.

I do not believe that religions will merge by force or by people telling other people that they are wrong and need to merge. I believe it has to be a choice and that it will be a process that gradually unfolds as people come to accept the principles of the Baha'i Faith, that all religions are one and came from the one true God.

 

[Altfish]

What would it look like if God revealed Himself that way and how would we know it was God?

Surely your god is capable of letting his creation know it was him. Perhaps he could end a famine by making it rain; stop children dying, stop childhood cancer, etc

How do you know that God can reveal himself through modern medium of communication?

What, there is a doubt that the creator of the universe can't ring Fox News, book a slot and get Hannity to ridicule him??

Do you think that God is just stubbornly refusing to do what He could do?

I don't think he exists. BUT if he did exist, then yes, he is being stubborn

 

[joelr]

The kind of God that would communicate directly to everyone cannot exist, since there is no evidence that any God has ever communicated directly to everyone in the world.

My logic is correct. There cannot be a God who would directly communicate it's existence to everyone in the world because there is no evidence that a God has ever done that.

Put another way, if a God exists that has communicated directly to everyone then everyone in the world would be able to testify that God has communicated to them. Everyone has not testified to that so that is how we know that if a God exists it does not communicate directly to everyone.

The logic?
First there is no evidence that a God communicated to anyone ever. There are claims. There is no information received from a God that a human didn't already know, all prophecies are vague or written after the fact. The Israelites had religious leaders who supposedly spoke to a God yet their stories are all re-workings of Mesopotamian myths, their laws are exactly like the laws of all surrounding cultures. Egyptian myths already had deities giving laws on stone as well as most of the stories about Moses life. Instead of learning about a big bang or any modern science (even a solar system) they got a re-hash of the Mesopotamian 2 creations stories complete with 7 heavens, a cosmic ocean above heaven (the reason why the sky is blue), a lower heaven where the stars and planets dwell and another where the celestial versions of the temple and garden are.
Later "God" seemed to really enjoy Persian and Hellenistic religions because Christianity is exactly described as a syncretic blend of Judaism, Persian and Greek myths. In Judaism dead people dwelled in Sheol (gravesites). In Hellenism people have souls that are fallen and can be redeemed by a savior figure so they can get back to heaven where they originated from. Hebrew thinkers added these ideas into Judaism right as Christianity was emerging.
So the evidence is people made stuff up using older stuff that was also made up. There are no Gods in any of this?

There is no evidence for any God and definitely no evidence a God ever communicated with people. So if a God exists you cannot say that it could not speak to all humans at once.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I say I believe that the older religions do not have the message humanity needs in this new age but the spiritual teachings of all the religions are the same so they will always be pertinent in every age.

I prefer talking to atheists because other religious people are mired in their own religions, so what is there to discuss? Most believers are certain they have the only true religion and I do not like to argue.

Para 1 is falsehood, because all regions carp on brotherhood and peace. Abrahamic religions, in addition, carp on accepting their proponent as the only true or only the latest to do that.

Para 2 is contradictory in itself. You do not want to talk to people from other religions because they are mired in their beliefs. I wonder, with this view, how can you bring about a union of religions or world peace. You do not want to talk to the 2.4 billion Christians, 1.9 billion Muslims, i.2 billion Hindus, half a billion Buddhists and more than half a billion people of other organized and pagan religions (figures from Wikipedia). Then whom are you trying to talk to?

And you want to talk to atheists who do not give two hoots for your religion or your manifestation because they do not believe even in existence of any God or Allah. You do not like to argue but the atheists will not miss any opportunity to argue.

Therefore, I fail to see any sense in your talking to anyone at all. Basically, all what you are writing is total BS.

 

[Heyo]

I do not believe that religions will merge by force or by people telling other people that they are wrong and need to merge. I believe it has to be a choice and that it will be a process that gradually unfolds as people come to accept the principles of the Baha'i Faith, that all religions are one and came from the one true God.

Just like any other religion. "I believe I'm right and I believe everyone else will come to believe just like I do" - by magic?
Ever heard about the scientific method? It is what makes science so successful in finding the truth about the natural world. Sometimes scientists argue about the nature of a phenomenon. Then they get together on symposia, debate, invent tests for their hypothesis and in the end (yes, that can be decades later) they come to a consensus. Those who have been wrong admit their error (or die out).
Why don't religious people do the same? Because they don't want to come to the truth, they want to keep believing what they do. Show me a theist who honestly wants to know the truth and I show you a future Agnostic or atheist.

 

[Trailblazer]

Surely your god is capable of letting his creation know it was him. Perhaps he could end a famine by making it rain; stop children dying, stop childhood cancer, etc

Maybe, but what would He, why should He?

What, there is a doubt that the creator of the universe can't ring Fox News, book a slot and get Hannity to ridicule him??

I doubt it, but even if He could, what would that accomplish?.

I don't think he exists. BUT if he did exist, then yes, he is being stubborn

You mean because He is not doing what you want Him to do?

 

[Trailblazer]

There is no evidence for any God and definitely no evidence a God ever communicated with people. So if a God exists you cannot say that it could not speak to all humans at once.

No, there is no proof that God has spoken to any Messengers, but there is evidence that indicates that is what God has done.

I never said that God could not speak to all humans at once, but what would be the point?
What would that accomplish?