Atheists: If God existed would God……

[Trailblazer]

If there is no information about it, then there is no reason to believe it. it becomes a matter of personal opinion and nothing more.

I disagree about your characterization that something believed cannot be a fact. In fact, I try to limit my beliefs to things that are facts.

There is information about Baha'u'llah and that is why I believe He was a Messenger of God
It is not a fact that God exists simply because it can never be proven to everyone.

 

[F1fan]

No I am not.

You not responding to my questions says otherwise.

I quoted a well-known saying..

"Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man [who places his faith in wealth and status] to enter the Kingdom of G-d"
-Matthew 19-

And notice how many Christians are greedy. So, it's believers who you should be using these texts to challenge as they're the one's who supposedly believe in it.

..and it was challenged.
I presented evidence to support it when asked.
Now, if you don't mind, I'm done here.

You failed to answer the questions I posed. This is typical evasion by theists. I understand they are hard and it's easier to make excuses. The odd thing is that you have God on your side and I'm all alone, and you lose. Has that occurred to you yet?

 

[Trailblazer]

OK, so now I'm sitting here in my living room and thinking, how would God communicate with ME to let me know He exists? How do you think? (and I believe He exists--just to say I did not always believe there is a God but now I do -- but how would you think he'd let anyone and everyone(?) know he exists?)

I believe that God let everyone know that He exists when He sent Jesus as a mediator between Himself and humanity. I believe there have been other mediators, all throughout human history.

 

[Trailblazer]

If rational people do A, then the inference is obvious that anyone who does not do A is irrational.

Sorry, that is the black or white fallacy. I spotted it immediately, it is so illogical.

black-or-white

You presented two alternative states as the only possibilities, when in fact more possibilities exist.

Also known as the false dilemma, this insidious tactic has the appearance of forming a logical argument, but under closer scrutiny it becomes evident that there are more possibilities than the either/or choice that is presented. Binary, black-or-white thinking doesn't allow for the many different variables, conditions, and contexts in which there would exist more than just the two possibilities put forth. It frames the argument misleadingly and obscures rational, honest debate.

Example: Whilst rallying support for his plan to fundamentally undermine citizens' rights, the Supreme Leader told the people they were either on his side, or they were on the side of the enemy.

Your logical fallacy is black or white

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Fair enough. It happens.


I do not think that is true either, but maybe I am not catching what you mean. Where are you finding this number? Are you talking about baryons vs "dark" energy and matter? Because those are physical.

I know science refers to dark energy as physical but see my post #697 , from my pov, the omnipresent space of the cosmos is yet to be fully understood so there are naturally outstanding questions. But I really don't want to argue the point, we'll just watch this space.

 

[F1fan]

No, that is not the reason. the reason is because God does not choose to communicate to humans.

Couldn't a better explanation why humans don't hear from a God is because it doesn't exist like theists believe?

God only chooses to communicate to Messengers who are another order of creation, both divine and human.
According to my beliefs.

And given the lack of evidence your belief is not credible. So we dismiss your belief.

As I noted, it makes more sense that messengers are lying and the God doesn't exist as you think it does. Occam's Razor.

 

[Sheldon]

Sorry, that is the black or white fallacy. I spotted it immediately, it is so illogical.

black-or-white

You presented two alternative states as the only possibilities, when in fact more possibilities exist.

Also known as the false dilemma, this insidious tactic has the appearance of forming a logical argument, but under closer scrutiny it becomes evident that there are more possibilities than the either/or choice that is presented. Binary, black-or-white thinking doesn't allow for the many different variables, conditions, and contexts in which there would exist more than just the two possibilities put forth. It frames the argument misleadingly and obscures rational, honest debate.

Example: Whilst rallying support for his plan to fundamentally undermine citizens' rights, the Supreme Leader told the people they were either on his side, or they were on the side of the enemy.

Your logical fallacy is black or white

I think you mean a false dichotomy fallacy.

So you claimed that a rational person would look at the evidence for a deity.

So since atheists don't see any evidence, and therefore cannot look at it, are they rational as well? Only I asked this, and you ignored it. As it would render your assertion meaningless, as I said. It would effectively be... some people see evidence for a deity and look at it,.. and some don't, and they're all rational.

So unless that is your alternative, or you have another one, then no, it is not a false dichotomy.

 

[Trailblazer]

It isn't about 'taking orders'. It is about the meaning of the words 'all powerful', 'all knowing' and 'all good'. The meaning of those words says that an all knowing, all good, all powerful God would want to and be able to communicate with every human. Since that has not happened, either God is no all good, is not all knowing, is not all powerful, of does not exist at all.

'all powerful', 'all knowing' and 'all good'. does not mean that God would want to communicate directly to every human being on earth.

You cannot make that work no matter how hard you try....
It is nothing but an ego projection because it is what YOU BELIEVE such a God would do

You stated that as an assertion -- "Since that has not happened, either God is no all good, is not all knowing, is not all powerful, of does not exist at all" -- but it is nothing more than a personal opinion.

You have NO IDEA what would happen if God communicated directly to everyone, and apparently you do not even bother to think about it....

• What if some people did not want to hear from God?
• How would anyone know it was God communicating?
• How could that ever bring world unity if everyone got their own personal message?
• If God communicated to everyone everything that He communicated to Baha'u'llah over the course of 40 years, when would they have any time to live their lives? The world would come to a complete standstill.

To date no atheist has ever been able to address any of these issues.
They just want what they want, like small children want a lollipop.

 

[F1fan]

Gee, not His job was it? Try telling that to the survivors of that horrific event. See what THEY think about their God, turning His Godly back on them like that.
The way I, and any SENSIBLE person would see it, is that this God did NOT REALLY GIVE A DAMN about it.

Right. Not God's job???

If I'm walking alone and minding my own business and I see a child drowning in a creek, well, it's not my job. I'm not a lifeguard. I'm not a fireman or cop. Im not the kid's dad or uncle. I'll just stop and watch. But I care.

Oh bull****, who am I kidding? I'd be in the water before I could think and do what I can to save the kid.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

Even if God could make humans understand Him, God does not choose to do that, and an Omnipotent God only does what it chooses to do, NOT what humans want it to do. And that is precisely why atheists are not getting what they want from God and never will.

Which begs the question of WHY such a God which is CAPABLE of doing something, NOT do it? Just to be ORNERY, or what? Does this all-knowing God, NOT "know" that much of this bantering back and forth COULD be eliminated SIMPLY by doing the very thing that this God CAN DO, but according to you, doesn't WANT to?
WHAT kind of irrational nonsense IS that, anyway?

 

[Aupmanyav]

There is information about Baha'u'llah and that is why I believe He was a Messenger of God.

The information is limited only to what he wrote and nothing that has evidence.

I believe that God let everyone know that He exists when He sent Jesus as a mediator between Himself and humanity.

There is no evidence of existence of God and none that Jesus was sent by God.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

'all powerful', 'all knowing' and 'all good'. does not mean that God would want to communicate directly to every human being on earth.

And ONCE AGAIN the question comes up as to just WHY this God wouldn't WANT TO communicate directly to whoever is willing to listen?

You cannot make that work no matter how hard you try....
It is nothing but an ego projection because it is what YOU BELIEVE such a God would do

This IS true, that no finite mortal can "make" an infinite immortal being DO SOMETHING. However, there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with wondering WHY such a God would not want to.

You stated that as an assertion -- "Since that has not happened, either God is not all good, is not all knowing, is not all powerful, of does not exist at all" -- but it is nothing more than a personal opinion.

Yes indeed it may well be JUST a personal 'opinion' but one arrived at as a result of some serious investigation INTO the whys and whatfores behind this Godly communicating business.

You have NO IDEA what would happen if God communicated directly to everyone, and apparently you do not even bother to think about it....

This is most certainly true that I would have no idea what would happen.....but I bet it would result in an awful lot of people suddenly becoming BELIEVERS.

• What if some people did not want to hear from God?
• Then I would suppose that they simply wouldn't pay any attention to it.
  
• How would anyone know it was God communicating?
• I am confident that such a God COULD make itself known, without any doubt!
  
• How could that ever bring world unity if everyone got their own personal message?
• What makes you think THAT would be God's objective?
  
• If God communicated to everyone everything that He communicated to Baha'u'llah over the course of 40 years, when would they have any time to live their lives? The world would come to a complete standstill.
• Not only is that a NON SEQUITUR, it is a totally irrationally statement, based on the PRESUMPTION that that is what the God was GOING TO SAY.

To date no atheist has ever been able to address any of these issues.

Well from MY perspective, I can certainly see WHY no one has offered to address any of those issues.

They just want what they want, like small children want a lollipop.

That comment ALONE is pure adulterated childish nonsense! You should be ashamed of yourself for even suggesting it.

 

[F1fan]

'all powerful', 'all knowing' and 'all good'. does not mean that God would want to communicate directly to every human being on earth.

Is your God a snob?

Previously you said that humans wouldn't be able to understand God, so God only talked to Messengers. Now it's God's snobbery?

You cannot make that work no matter how hard you try....
It is nothing but an ego projection because it is what YOU BELIEVE such a God would do

That's OK because none of us are dealing with facts about a God, only what you think a God is, which is not fact-based. So we are all guessing.

You stated that as an assertion -- "Since that has not happened, either God is no all good, is not all knowing, is not all powerful, of does not exist at all" -- but it is nothing more than a personal opinion.

As is what you think a God is. You offer no facts or knowledge about any gods.

You have NO IDEA what would happen if God communicated directly to everyone, and apparently you do not even bother to think about it....

• What if some people did not want to hear from God?

So what? No one wants to hear fro the IRS either, but we have to. So God won't save 6 million Jews but is nervous about contacting you?

• How would anyone know it was God communicating?

The God would know English, German, Russian, Italian, French, Mandarin, Spanish, Portuguese, Merican, etc. Or is God ignorant of languages? If so, it can't know very much about how humans behave.

• How could that ever bring world unity if everyone got their own personal message?

If a God was the originator then the message could be tailored to the individual so it would be comprehensible and understood. Hearing messages through a chain of people is terrible and unreliable. Ever hear of a gossip chain? Look it up.

• If God communicated to everyone everything that He communicated to Baha'u'llah over the course of 40 years, when would they have any time to live their lives? The world would come to a complete standstill.

Why is that bad? Let's say it is 1939 Germany. A standstill would prevent about 65 million deaths. Bad thing?

To date no atheist has ever been able to address any of these issues.
They just want what they want, like small children want a lollipop.

February 7, 2022.

 

[Trailblazer]

I think you mean a false dichotomy fallacy.

It is that fallacy but it is also the black or white fallacy when you think there are only two possibilities.

So you claimed that a rational person would look at the evidence for a deity.

As I recall, I said that a rational person would look at the evidence that God provided but I cannot find the post. I never said that God provided any evidence. This was hypothetical. If God provided evidence a rational person would look at that evidence (rather than rejecting it).

Of course, it they did not recognize it as evidence that God provided then there would be no reason to look at it. That does not mean they are irrational.

So since atheists don't see any evidence, and therefore cannot look at it, are they rational as well? Only I asked this, and you ignored it.

As it would render your assertion meaningless, as i said. It would effectively be some people see evidence for a deity and look at it,.. and some don't, and they're all rational.

I do not do black and white thinking and labeling people as either rational or irrational.
Just because I said what I think a rational person would do that does not mean that someone who did not do that is irrational.

 

[Trailblazer]

The information is limited only to what he wrote and nothing that has evidence.

No, the evidence is not what He wrote. It is who He was and what He did on His mission.

 

[Aupmanyav]

What if some people did not want to hear from God?

• How would anyone know it was God communicating?
• How could that ever bring world unity if everyone got their own personal message?
• If God communicated to everyone everything that He communicated to Baha'u'llah over the course of 40 years, when would they have any time to live their lives? The world would come to a complete standstill.

• They can put ear plugs in their ear or a finger to stop hearing what God is saying. God can make not listening impossible. Can he not, if he is all-knowing and all-mighty?
  
• That is a problem for God and not for us. Perhaps he should appear in the sky in some form that we do not normally encounter.
• I think if there is a God, he should be wise enough to present better arguments than you do.
• Why did God require 40 years to pass his communication. That is absolutely funny and irrational. He is all-mighty, he could zip the message and pass it along with the key to humans in a planck's moment.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

No, the evidence is not what He wrote. It is who He was and what He did on His mission.

Hmmmmm, some time back it was "because of what he WROTE"......but NOW it is because of who he was (whatever that is supposed to mean)...and what he did on his mission....REALLY, are you effing SERIOUS with that kind of remark as being some kind of meaningful EVIDENCE?
Face it, you have absolutely NOTHING to back up Bahahouies' claim that he actually HEARD from God Himself...other than his sayso@!

 

[F1fan]

They wouldn't. A rational person would look at the evidence that God provides.

Since you admit we don't if a God exists, this is just speculation that you suggest. Since we rational people don't see any evidence of a God, which would be there IF a God exists and left it, no God exists by your standard. Rational people do not see any evidence of God, so there isn't one.

Atheists are gambling because they do not know there is no afterlife.

Right, so we don't believe, and we aren't sucked in to the belief that there is an afterlife to gamble on.

"No afterlife" is a phrase that has no meaning to atheists either. It's meaningless, so you can't use it against atheists as if we do value it.

If you value the idea of "afterlife" it doesn't mean that those who don't WILL value the phrase "no afterlife". Both mean nothing to rational thinkers. There is no binary meaning here.

 

[ppp]

I know science refers to dark energy as physical but see my post #697 , from my pov, the omnipresent space of the cosmos is yet to be fully understood so there are naturally outstanding questions. But I really don't want to argue the point, we'll just watch this space.

I won't argue your feelings. But I am not going to take them into consideration. Cosmologists identified dark stuff thru physical means.

 

[Trailblazer]

And ONCE AGAIN the question comes up as to just WHY this God wouldn't WANT TO communicate directly to whoever is willing to listen?

Why would God want to communicate directly to whoever is willing to listen? God does not NEED anyone listening to Him because God has no needs....

This is ego projection, it is what YOU want, it is not what God wants, because if it was what God wanted God would have done it already.

This IS true, that no finite mortal can "make" an infinite immortal being DO SOMETHING. However, there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with wondering WHY such a God would not want to.

God has already explained WHY He does not want to, but you reject that explanation.

Yes indeed it may well be JUST a personal 'opinion' but one arrived at as a result of some serious investigation INTO the whys and whatfores behind this Godly communicating business.

How do you know there was any serious investigation? You are not @Polymath257

This is most certainly true that I would have no idea what would happen.....but I bet it would result in an awful lot of people suddenly becoming BELIEVERS.

Why do you think that would happen? How would anyone know it was God communicating?
It would not MATTER if more people became believers because God does not want believers who require that He whisper in their ear.

Well from MY perspective, I can certainly see WHY no one has offered to address any of those issues.

Why haven't they? It is because they can't address them.
You are confident that such a God COULD make itself known, without any doubt! How do you know that? You don't know that, you just BELIEVE IT.

I believe that nobody except Messengers could EVER understand God speaking to them directly.

That comment ALONE is pure adulterated childish nonsense! You should be ashamed of yourself for even suggesting it.

It is the absolute truth. God, talk to me, God talk to me.... NOTHING could be more childish or more selfish.
I am not the one who should be ashamed of myself. It is the people who expect God to do what God has chosen NOT to do who should be ashamed. It is so sad that they cannot figure that out.