Atheists, is life ultimately meaningful?

[RedDragon94]

God finished in seven days , unlike my recent builders experience.
Was no snagging list per se
Is humans world to rule
until one can prove thier true worth to rule earth ,
one can then move on to take a place in heaven
in theory ?.

Well, humanity failed at ruling creation a long time ago and we are responsible for the situation of the world right now because of our first parents decision to disobey God. What we need now is grace and a change of heart. If the world embraced those two things it would look very different.

 

[Deathbydefault]

Is life ultimately meaningful and [edit] if you don't think life is meaningful [/edit] are you satisfied with it not being meaningful?

That's something that is decided by yourself.
I don't find life all that meaningful and am fine with it.

If reality is objective then it must serve some purpose. That's what an objective is, it is fulfilling a certain something in order to do something else. Do you agree?

That's mixing definitions. Under the assumption that the reality we experience is the ultimate reality, there's no way to tell if there's an objective.
I would say it's just as, if not more likely that reality and life serve no thought out purpose as apposed to determinism or creationism.

I've heard that there are atheists that embrace determinism in a way. Is this true? Are you one of them? And how can everything be determined without there being an animate being in charge of determining? Where do you draw the line on whether things happen for a reason?

Yes. No.
You can get determinism away from mainstream faith.
Multiverse could show determinism, an infinite number of universes with an infinite number of possibilities.
In that whole mess every possibility and outcome has been decided for each universe and we are just living through one of those.

Not really my cup of tea, though.
If things happen for a reason we can't verify what that reason is so it's a mute point.

 

[RedDragon94]

That's something that is decided by yourself.
I don't find life all that meaningful and am fine with it.



That's mixing definitions. Under the assumption that the reality we experience is the ultimate reality, there's no way to tell if there's an objective.
I would say it's just as, if not more likely that reality and life serve no thought out purpose as apposed to determinism or creationism.



Yes. No.
You can get determinism away from mainstream faith.
Multiverse could show determinism, an infinite number of universes with an infinite number of possibilities.
In that whole mess every possibility and outcome has been decided for each universe and we are just living through one of those.

Not really my cup of tea, though.
If things happen for a reason we can't verify what that reason is so it's a mute point.

I'll try to answer this at some point.

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

Well, humanity failed at ruling creation a long time ago and we are responsible for the situation of the world right now because of our first parents decision to disobey God. What we need now is grace and a change of heart. If the world embraced those two things it would look very different.

Why you take burden of previous generations ? Huh not your fault ?
I didn't mean you single handed must change the world

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

We all have to find our own meaning in life. Even with religion, you're basically just agreeing with that religion's teaching about the meaning of life.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Is life ultimately meaningful and [edit] if you don't think life is meaningful [/edit] are you satisfied with it not being meaningful?

If reality is objective then it must serve some purpose. That's what an objective is, it is fulfilling a certain something in order to do something else. Do you agree?

I've heard that there are atheists that embrace determinism in a way. Is this true? Are you one of them? And how can everything be determined without there being an animate being in charge of determining? Where do you draw the line on whether things happen for a reason?

I hate being pedantic, so apologies, but in this case, I think the devil is in the detail. I'm still allowed to say 'devil' right?

Anywhoos...

'Ultimately', no, I don't think there is meaning, assuming by 'ultimate' you mean some grand, overarching meaning that encompasses all. Atheism, to my mind, plays no role in that, though. I've still never had anyone explain an 'Ultimate' meaning of life to be in any convincing fashion, and instead in a logical sense I'm often left with the same confusion as when God is held up as the first cause.

That notwithstanding, you can have plenty of meaning in your life without an 'Ultimate' meaning. That appears self-evident to me. Determinism or any other particular philosophy rarely centrally changes this fact, imho.

 

[Blastcat]

Is life ultimately meaningful

Life itself has no meaning in and of itself.
Life can't MAKE a meaning. Human beings with life can make meanings.
The only way that life can HAVE a meaning is if someone GIVES it a meaning.

The ONLY "meaning" of things are what we humans make up. There is no "meaning" to an event.
But humans, of course, MAKE all kinds of meanings.

Tons and tons of meanings.

and [edit] if you don't think life is meaningful [/edit]

There seems to be a conflation going on between:

1. The meaning that life ITSELF has.
2. The meaning that humans can make out of life.

Those two aren't the same.

Take an example of a rock.

1. The rock itself has no meaning.
2. Humans can make a LOT of meanings from the rock.

are you satisfied with it not being meaningful?

I have to be satisfied with reality the way that it is.
If I want there to be a meaning .. I have to make it.

If reality is objective then it must serve some purpose.

I have no idea why you would think so.

That's what an objective is,

Oh.. I see the problem.
Again, a conflation with the different meanings of words.

Here you use the word "objective" as the opposite of "subjective" and also use it to mean a "goal" at the same time.

The term "objective reality" isn't defined to mean that it has a goal.[/QUOTE]

it is fulfilling a certain something in order to do something else. Do you agree?

In a way.. we can say that when we notice a cause, we could say that one thing has to be IN ORDER for another to happen. But there is no intention going on in nature, OTHER than by way of beings capable of intending. Nature doesn't intend anything. It just "happens".. like rocks falling in an avalanche. There is no intention of any kind going on in an avalanche.

I've heard that there are atheists that embrace determinism in a way. Is this true?

Atheism isn't about determinism or free will... and I know atheists on both sides of the fence. I'm a compatibility.. but that really means that the ILLUSION of free will is very persistent and useful in some ways.

In other ways, the idea of free will can be destructive, so useless. In either case, it's not something that people can really settle.. this falls under the rubric of "Opinion".

Are you one of them? And how can everything be determined without there being an animate being in charge of determining?

Just like everything in the universe that we DO know of, there are no "animate" causes that we know of. Except for life on earth.

Where do you draw the line on whether things happen for a reason?

I'd have to be able to prove intention, if I take a rock.. a hard thing to do.
But if a HUMAN throws a rock at me.. it's easier to prove intent.

You ask interesting questions. But be careful because SOME questions aren't good. Even though our teachers were quick to say that there "were no bad questions".. well, that's not true.

Some questions are meaningless.
What is the color of life? ... is an example of a meaningless question.

 

[Twilight Hue]

There is no meaning other than meaning by way of attribute.

 

[Parsimony]

Well we didn't just call things whatever we felt like when the English language was being formulated did we? I don't know what the connection is between those words but it's obvious to me that objective's definitions are related.

Which doesn't make the definitions the same, and that is an important distinction to make. Even in your example with "scales", you can't use the two definitions interchangeably: If you say, "I measured my weight on the scale", you can't mean "fish scale" and still have it be a sensible statement.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Is life ultimately meaningful and [edit] if you don't think life is meaningful [/edit] are you satisfied with it not being meaningful? If reality is objective then it must serve some purpose. That's what an objective is, it is fulfilling a certain something in order to do something else. Do you agree? I've heard that there are atheists that embrace determinism in a way. Is this true? Are you one of them? And how can everything be determined without there being an animate being in charge of determining? Where do you draw the line on whether things happen for a reason?

All things (as far as we know) happen for a reason. We may know or may not exactly know the reason. The theist claim that God exists with absolutely no reason is a problem. Life is meaningful because of our sorrows and pleasures, and more so because of young. Evolution ensured that. We cannot let the young perish, even across the species (except when we go insane).

 

[eiskalt]

If youre an atheist, youre your own god. So you make your own ultimate meaning in life. If you gather more people around you and form a community, then you have a communal ultimate meaning in life. In ancient rome people believed, that we all have our own god called "genius" inside us, which is our spirit. People actually worshiped the genius of the emperor. They even made coins with the genius of the emperor.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Is life ultimately meaningful and [edit] if you don't think life is meaningful [/edit] are you satisfied with it not being meaningful?

To turn it around, I think that relying on a belief in God for meaning would be a sad state of affairs.

 

[HonestJoe]

Is life ultimately meaningful and [edit] if you don't think life is meaningful [/edit] are you satisfied with it not being meaningful?

I don’t think life has any fundamental objective meaning. More significantly, if it did, we’ve apparently no way to definitively determine what that meaning actually is – that’s why so many people can be so certain of so many completely different meanings they’ve concluded.

I wouldn’t call this “satisfying” but it’s a reality I’ve accepted and am able to live with. In general humans seem to manage with all the short-term subjective meanings we create for ourselves.

I've heard that there are atheists that embrace determinism in a way. Is this true?

Not specifically atheists. That term just relates to not believing in gods and doesn’t carry any other automatic commonalities. I’d suggest everyone embraces determinism to certain extent. We’re all here typing on our keyboards in the certainty that our messages will be held on our computers, transferred through the internet, reach the forum servers and ultimately be presented on the website for others to read and reply. If we weren’t making that assumption of determined outcome, we wouldn’t bother typing in the first place.

Determinism doesn’t require a controlling intelligence, just a set of physical laws. The basis of things like electromagnetism and gravitational force could ultimately establish the consequences of pretty much everything, even our thoughts and ideas. People have claimed and hypothesised all sorts of other influences or exceptions, from gods to quantum physics but none have yet been definitively proven to be outside any and all sets of physical laws.

If anything, some all-powerful deity specifically defined as being free to break physical laws at will overrides any concept of determinism at all. They could just declare that something is going to be (or was!) entirely different. Nothing could be determined at all because the rules could change to literally anything at any point. And how could life have any fundamental objective meaning in those circumstances?

 

[Blastcat]

All things (as far as we know) happen for a reason. We may know or may not exactly know the reason. The theist claim that God exists with absolutely no reason is a problem. Life is meaningful because of our sorrows and pleasures, and more so because of young. Evolution ensured that. We cannot let the young perish, even across the species (except when we go insane).

If we don't know the reason, why pretend there is one?

Two completely separate events might happen at the same time like an avalanche on a mountain and a kid getting a bee sting. We can MAKE a connection, we can post pretty pictures.. and make connections where there aren't any.

You put the cart before the horse if you say that life has meaning BECAUSE of our joys and sorrows. It's the other way around. We have joys and sorrows and say that it gives life meaning.

What's the MEANING to evolution?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Two completely separate events might happen at the same time like an avalanche on a mountain and a kid getting a bee sting. We can MAKE a connection, we can post pretty pictures.. and make connections where there aren't any.
What's the MEANING to evolution?

There are reasons for both. So many things happen simultaneously. It is a big world (on human scale).

Evolution is change in the heritable traits of biologicalpopulations over successive generations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution

 

[viole]

Is life ultimately meaningful and [edit] if you don't think life is meaningful [/edit] are you satisfied with it not being meaningful?

I think life is meaningful, but not ultimately meaningful. There is nothing ultimately meaningful. That is question begging.

If reality is objective then it must serve some purpose. That's what an objective is, it is fulfilling a certain something in order to do something else. Do you agree?

There is no logical link between "being objective" and "serving a purpose". A black hole is objective, but I really do not see what purpose it can serve.

I've heard that there are atheists that embrace determinism in a way. Is this true?

i am a determinist because of physics, not because of my atheism. Even QM is deterministic, in a way.

And how can everything be determined without there being an animate being in charge of determining?

Because that animate being would be determined too. If it belongs to the set of "everything".

Where do you draw the line on whether things happen for a reason?

You mean ultimate reason? There is not such a thing.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Blastcat]

There are reasons for both. So many things happen simultaneously. It is a big world (on human scale).

Evolution is change in the heritable traits of biologicalpopulations over successive generations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution

Again, we KNOW that humans make meanings. The avalanche might have been because of weather conditions. The bee sting because of .. what's what bees do sometimes.

Life is what happens.. so what if we can invent meanings?
It doesn't mean the avalanche HAS a meaning.. or that the bee sting HAS a meaning

 

[LuisDantas]

Is life ultimately meaningful

No, not _ultimately_ meaningful. It can however be circunstantially meaningful, and that tends to be plenty enough.

and [edit] if you don't think life is meaningful [/edit] are you satisfied with it not being meaningful?

Not sure what you mean here. Are you asking if I need "ultimate" meaning in order not to freak out? I guess I do not.

If reality is objective then it must serve some purpose.

I doubt it. Why would you think so?

That's what an objective is, it is fulfilling a certain something in order to do something else. Do you agree?

Probably. But reality in general neither needs nor evidences any particular affinity with objectives. People do, but reality is quite unlike people for the most part.

I've heard that there are atheists that embrace determinism in a way. Is this true? Are you one of them? And how can everything be determined without there being an animate being in charge of determining? Where do you draw the line on whether things happen for a reason?

How can I tell whether I am a determinist? I don't adhere to any sort of belief in Free Will, if it helps.

 

[Milton Platt]

Just because a being doesn't have any physical properties doesn't mean they aren't there. For example, haunted houses. You can choose to disbelieve accounts of them but you once you experience them they are all too real.

Basically that everything happens because something before caused it to happen.

Where can we actually experience a haunted house and determine scientifically it is due to supernatural forces or beings and not due to something else??? That would be fun.

In fact, it would mean a Nobel prize. I could use the money.

 

[Aupmanyav]

It doesn't mean the avalanche HAS a meaning.. or that the bee sting HAS a meaning

Perhaps the meaning is that avalanche comes because God has decided to call the people who die to his presence or that child got the sting because his parents or grand parents sinned, Is that what you mean by 'meaning'?