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Atheists: Is that your final answer?

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
To get back to the idea of closemindedness:

Making a decision doesn't indicate an unwillingness to change that decision in the future.
Closemindedness does indicate an unwillingness to change.
Therefore, to accuse someone (like an athiest) of closemindedness simply becuase s/he made a decision is not logical, unless there is some other indication that s/he is unwilling to change.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
So then it must be a principle of statistics that the sun will always shine, becuase if you measure all those seconds that it has, then it'll probably keep having them(seconds of shine)?
No, it's a principle of statistics that the more times you look up and see that the sun is shining, the more certain you can be that it is actually shining.

In the case of the bag of marbles, the greater your sample size, the greater your confidence that your sample (i.e. the marbles in your hand) is an accurate reflection of your population (i.e. all the marbles).

In a slippery slope, one assumes that an event will inevitable happen from another(the sun will keep on shining becuase it has kept on shining). such is callled fallacy of predicting the future. there is no evidence, so there never will be?
That's not what the slippery slope fallacy is. The slippery slope works like this:

- If event 'A' happens, then event 'B' will inevitably happen (without substantiating why 'B' inevitably follows 'A').
- since event 'B' is undesirable, event 'A' should not be allowed to happen.

The key point of the slippery slope fallacy is that you're using the consequences of 'B' to justify a decision about 'A', when it's not established that 'B' must follow from 'A'. It's not just saying "this thing happens because of that thing".

Appealing to Tradition is saying that it happens traditionally (Sun shines) therefore it is favorable(sun should keep on shining).
No, appeal to tradition would be "we believe that the Sun will go out on January 1, 2012, and we know this is true because our people have believed it for centuries."

The key idea in Appeal to Tradition is that the length of time a belief is held is itself support for that belief. This is not the same thing as having many measurements over a long period of time.

misleading vividness is "event x occurs, therefore event x is likely to occur later."
No, misleading vividness is "Event 'X' very rarely leads to Event 'Y'. Even though this is so rare as to be statistically insignificant, the dramatic nature of 'Y' means that we should take it into account when evaluating 'X'."

Gamblers fallacy is that becuase it happens so much it is less likely to happen next. and the assertion asserted was that because it happens so much it is more likely it will keep happening.
Which is not a fallacy.

Let's step through the Gambler's Fallacy:

The Gambler's Fallacy is committed when a person assumes that a departure from what occurs on average or in the long term will be corrected in the short term. The form of the fallacy is as follows:
  1. X has happened.
  2. X departs from what is expected to occur on average or over the long term.
  3. Therefore, X will come to an end soon.
Now, let's look at what you've called the "reverse gambler's fallacy:
  1. X has happened.
  2. We initially have no average against which we can predict what X should be.
  3. Therefore, we create a prediction based on multiple observations or measurements of X.
  4. From this prediction, we assume that X will continue to behave in accordance with past observations.
Like I said, this is not a fallacy.

Also, I should point out that the gambler's fallacy isn't a fallacy under certain conditions. Say you know that there is a red marble in the bag; you either looked in the bag or dropped the red one in there. Every time you remove a blue marble (assuming you don't return it to the bag), you do increase your chances of drawing the red one the next time.
 

Luminous

non-existential luminary
Hi, Luminous. Your BS detector needs refinement, in my view. None of the above apply to the observation that no-one will ever overturn every atom to disprove the existence of "magic", or to the fact that all the accumulated evidence falling into the category of "blue marbles" suggests there are probably no red marbles at the bottom of the bag.

Slippery slope would be: since we are pulling out all these blue marbles, sooner or later we are bound to crush the universe under the weight of black boulders. Gambler's fallacy would be: since we are pulling out nothing but blue marbles, the probability of pulling out a red one is increasing with every moment. Appeal to tradition would be: It would be wrong to pull anything but blue marbles, since only blue marbles have ever been pulled. Misleading vividness would be: While we have only ever pulled blue marbles from the bag, I once pulled one that was ever so slightly more purplish than the rest, therefore there must be a red marble in there somewhere.

Sugriva's post was beautifully logical, I'd say.
yep, your right. :eek:
So then its proven: there is no god(s) :D
 
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Luminous

non-existential luminary
forget about this:
But isn't the onus on the theist to supply evidence for their theism? I'm an atheist, and my atheism is not based on disproving anything but is bolstered by the fact that theism has offered nothing as proof (I'll use proof here loosely since it tends to make more sense as a mathematical term). It's up to the believer to support their claims and not the unbeliever to debunk or disprove.
though the last part is true, it is also true that absence of evidence is not [edit- good-enough] evidence of absence. this means you are entitled to be an atheist as much as you are entitled to be a theist: for there is equal amount of proof for both. therefore, it is the 'onus' of the one trying to convince to supply evidence for their claim.

The default position should be non-theism until evidence is offered to support theism. Both the theist and atheist believe in a universe dictated by physical laws- but the theist believes in something additional, an extra constituent called the supernatural, god(s), magic, or whatever. It's up to the claimant adding to the universal mix to offer evidence as to why that addition should be added. It's not up to the skeptic to disprove the unprovable.
This is all true. the default position should be non-theism, of which i belong. however, in this case the question is not "what is most likely" but "what is true".

Again, atheism is my final answer. An omnimax entity is contradictory and is as logically impossible as square circles.
the question is not is there an "omnimax entity" but "is there a higher being than human" or "were we created by a being". In anycase, the atheist stand is most logical and the agnostic stance most true.
Now, relating the some religions believing in an 'omnimax entity', for them i can offer no hope.
In any case, all i meant is that the statement, "believe me becuase the burden rests on them to prove me wrong" is a logical fallacy; more specifically the fallacy of slinging Burden of Proof.
:D: Yeay! i have seen the light; "because it looks like God doesn't exist, then it doesn't."
 
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Alceste

Vagabond
yep, your right. :eek:
So then its proven: there is no god(s) :D

I think the point is (always was) that all the available evidence points to a strong likelihood there are no gods, and that no available evidence points to any possibility of the existence of gods. "Proof" is not relevant to such a discussion.
 

Luminous

non-existential luminary
I think the point is (always was) that all the available evidence points to a strong likelihood there are no gods, and that no available evidence points to any possibility of the existence of gods. "Proof" is not relevant to such a discussion.
i agree with this. however, all i meant to say was that atheism takes a stance with limited evidence and one should always remind oneself that one does not know for sure. So sayin: "there are no Gods, becuase you can't prove there are" is a wrong thing to say. Now, sayin: " you shouldn't think there are Gods, you should admit that evidence is small for such assertion" is more correct. I guess what i was arguing was that agnosticism is a more...
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
i agree with this. however, all i meant to say was that atheism takes a stance with limited evidence and one should always remind oneself that one does not know for sure. So sayin: "there are no Gods, becuase you can't prove there are" is a wrong thing to say.

This is based on the assumption that all atheists make the positive assertion that there are no gods. This is not true. Merely an absense of belief in gods is atheism.
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
This is based on the assumption that all atheists make the positive assertion that there are no gods. This is not true. Merely an absense of belief in gods is atheism.

Ironically, I took the opposite position in my thread Atheism is not the mere lack of belief in gods. My position there was that one has to be exposed to the concept of a god in order to reject belief in one, and that almost always entails evaluation of statements made in favor of a god. Atheists almost never mean that there is literally no evidence in favor of any god but that the evidence provided has been unconvincing.
 

leahrachelle

Active Member
Okay, so I got myself into all kinds of trouble the other night by suggesting that atheists are closed-minded about the possibility of God existing. So I'm here to ask you, isn't an atheist who might be willing to change his mind about God existing really just an agnostic?

I've always figured that agnostics (weak or strong) doubt the existance of God, but believe it's really impossible to know for sure. I've always thought that theists were absolutely convinced that there is a God and that atheists were absolutely convinced that there isn't one. So when an atheist tells me that if the supposedly non-existant God were to do such and such, he'd believe in Him, I counter with the statement that I don't believe he would. If he's an atheist, he's made up his mind already. Then all hell breaks loose and I have to run for my life.

So, all you atheists... Your answer is, "There is no God." But... is that your final answer? And if it isn't, why don't you consider yourself agnostic?
No, it's not my final answer. Under your definition I would be agnostic, but i call myself athiest because I think it is a very unlikely possibility. Therefore, I probably won't change my mind anyways - but no, I am not close-minded about it.
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
Ironically, I took the opposite position in my thread Atheism is not the mere lack of belief in gods. My position there was that one has to be exposed to the concept of a god in order to reject belief in one, and that almost always entails evaluation of statements made in favor of a god. Atheists almost never mean that there is literally no evidence in favor of any god but that the evidence provided has been unconvincing.

I can see and agree with both concepts of atheism. It depends on which conceptual framework you start from.

For instance, as a rationalist, my being an "atheist" is incidental, and unavoidable. Being exposed to the idea of god(s), I have rejected that belief, which labels me an atheist. However, I believe that I would still be an atheist if I had never been exposed to the idea - perhaps not in name, but in meaning.

I believe any label which accurately describes me is applicable to me, whether I'm aware of it or not.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
i agree with this. however, all i meant to say was that atheism takes a stance with limited evidence and one should always remind oneself that one does not know for sure.

I consider my evidence for the proposition that the universe and everything in it is subject to comprehensible, repeatable, natural laws and principles substantial. Not limited. I don't need to remind myself I don't know for sure if Thor, Kali, Yahweh, Dionysus et al are "real" any more than I need to remind myself that I don't know for sure if the Tooth Fairy is "real", and assertions to the contrary strike me as tediously sophistic.

You could argue I might have 11 toes instead of 10 by exactly the same reasoning. After all, the fact I've only ever seen 10 toes on my feet doesn't prove there is no 11th toe. Do I have to constantly remind myself of the possibility I might have an invisible extra toe, as you would have me constantly remind myself there might be an invisible being living in the sky?

So sayin: "there are no Gods, becuase you can't prove there are" is a wrong thing to say. Now, sayin: " you shouldn't think there are Gods, you should admit that evidence is small for such assertion" is more correct. I guess what i was arguing was that agnosticism is a more...

What I'm saying is that I don't believe in any gods external to the human psyche because there aren't any. What anybody else can or can't "prove", or whether they believe in some invisible sky daddy (or mommy) does not concern me in the least. Who am I to say they are "wrong" to (or "shouldn't") believe in invisible things? Maybe to others such beliefs are useful or comforting, and that's really what it all boils down to at the end of the day.
 

Luminous

non-existential luminary
I consider my evidence for the proposition that the universe and everything in it is subject to comprehensible, repeatable, natural laws and principles substantial. Not limited. I don't need to remind myself I don't know for sure if Thor, Kali, Yahweh, Dionysus et al are "real" any more than I need to remind myself that I don't know for sure if the Tooth Fairy is "real", and assertions to the contrary strike me as tediously sophistic.

You could argue I might have 11 toes instead of 10 by exactly the same reasoning. After all, the fact I've only ever seen 10 toes on my feet doesn't prove there is no 11th toe. Do I have to constantly remind myself of the possibility I might have an invisible extra toe, as you would have me constantly remind myself there might be an invisible being living in the sky?



What I'm saying is that I don't believe in any gods external to the human psyche because there aren't any. What anybody else can or can't "prove", or whether they believe in some invisible sky daddy (or mommy) does not concern me in the least. Who am I to say they are "wrong" to (or "shouldn't") believe in invisible things? Maybe to others such beliefs are useful or comforting, and that's really what it all boils down to at the end of the day.
yeah, i guess that's true.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
Katzpur, I was gonna read this, but you lost any credibility I had for you when I wread you were a mormon.

Then you need to educate yourself. Katzpur, along with many other Mormons here, is a very intelligent, respectable and rational poster. Do you realize that this statement is no better than "you lost any credibility I had for you when I read you were black"?
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
OK, then. Sorry, since I don't know you yet, I couldn't tell that you were joking. Welcome to the forum!
 
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