Atheists: Is that your final answer?

[Magic Man]

If and when I decide to ask you a question or accept you as Mr Spinkles' proxy I'll let you know.

I know, I know, you don't want my answer because you have no stupid, trite rebuttal for it, or you know I'll call you out on your ridiculous behavior.

However, this is a public forum for use by all members. You asked a question, and I responded. I'm sorry you didn't like the answer, and this was the best unhelpful hinderance to a conversation you could come up with, but I'll bet that Mr. Spinkles agrees with me, as do most other atheists. So, if you want a real conversation, by all means, keep posting. Otherwise you might want to just go away. Thanks.

Sure it's a decision. Any opinion reached through the process of cognition is a decision.

I have to disagree. I can decide to take a shower today or not. I can't decide to believe in something or not. I either do or I don't.

 

[lunamoth]

I don't think I agree with that. I don't see how recognizing something for what it is can be considered a decision, whether you're talking about looking at an apple and thinking "that's an apple" or reflecting on one's beliefs and recognizing that they're atheistic.

However, choosing to apply the label "atheist" instead of others that might be just as valid... I recognize that's a decision.

I think there is a difference though between 'concluding atheism' and 'identifying an apple.' The conclusion of atheism depends on inferences made using higher levels of reason, rather than just sensing and remembering apples previously seen and tasted.

 

[Buttercup]

I can't decide to believe in something or not. I either do or I don't.

But, how do you get to that point? Don't you reason the idea back and forth in your mind?

 

[Magic Man]

But, how do you get to that point? Don't you reason the idea back and forth in your mind?

Yeah, but not like I would with deciding whether or not to take a shower. I don't say "Hm...well, if I go with God, then I get this, if I go without God I get this". I don't weigh my options to see what I like better. I just look at the two options and say, "Well, that one doesn't make sense, I don't think I believe in that."

 

[Buttercup]

I don't think I believe in that."

Yes, and that's a decision.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I think there is a difference though between 'concluding atheism' and 'identifying an apple.' The conclusion of atheism depends on inferences made using higher levels of reason, rather than just sensing and remembering apples previously seen and tasted.

Sure, but are those inferences choices either? I mean, I think that atheism can boil down to judgements like "based on what I know, I don't think theism is a reasonable conclusion". Is that a choice? I don't personally think it is.

Basically, I can't see where choice comes into it... as long as we're talking about the beliefs themselves, that is, and not the decision to call onesself an atheist rather than, say, a secular humanist, a Jain or a non-theistic Quaker, depending on the person's other beliefs or attributes.

 

[Nepenthe]

Yeah, but not like I would with deciding whether or not to take a shower. I don't say "Hm...well, if I go with God, then I get this, if I go without God I get this". I don't weigh my options to see what I like better. I just look at the two options and say, "Well, that one doesn't make sense, I don't think I believe in that."

Yep, a decision implies there are two or more valid choices of varying reliability. So we either choose to shower or bathe or not. But my atheism is not comparable as a "choice", no more than I "choose" to accept logical inferences. I never decided to accept the axiom of choice; it is a logical inference that I didn't have the option in determining whether it was valid or not.

 

[Magic Man]

Yes, and that's a decision.

Well, if you say so. I don't see how, though. I didn't decide to be an atheist, I just realized that's what I am. It's not like people threw out suggestions like "You could be an atheist, or a theist, or a polytheist, or a pantheist", and I thought about it and decided that I wanted to be an atheist.

 

[Storm]

Perhaps "conclusion" would serve the point better than "decision." Babies aren't atheists, because they are incapable of reaching a conclusion.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I know, I know, you don't want my answer because ...

I don't want your answer because it was directed elsewhere and I simply don't care what you think.

 

[doppelganger]

Yep, a decision implies there are two or more valid choices of varying reliability. So we either choose to shower or bathe or not. But my atheism is not comparable as a "choice", no more than I "choose" to accept logical inferences. I never decided to accept the axiom of choice; it is a logical inference that I didn't have the option in determining whether it was valid or not.

Yes, exactly. Saying there was a "choice" is merely a reflection on the fact that there were multiple possibilities before one acted. It does NOT mean that there was a homunculus of the will or a "soul" that could have "chosen" to act other than it did independent of cause - even if in reflection it may seem that way.

 

[Magic Man]

I don't want your answer because it was directed elsewhere and I simply don't care what you think.

Whatever makes you feel better. You just keep telling yourself that, big guy, and I'll keep calling you out on your ridiculousness.

 

[Buttercup]

Perhaps "conclusion" would serve the point better than "decision." Babies aren't atheists, because they are incapable of reaching a conclusion.

Yes, I agree. That's a much better word to describe either side's stance.

 

[linwood]

Believe it or not I`m unsure now as to whether atheism is a decision or not.

I was never a theist, there has never been a moment in my life in which I held a belief in a deity.

I did have to analyze and reject numerous theologies in my life and it could be argued those rejections were decisions not to believe in those particular deities.

So yes, rejecting the contradictory properties of a human god construct is a decision.
I have decided not to believe in Allah, Jehovah, Zeus and so on.

They weren`t however decisions that led to my rejection of the "concept" of a deity.

I`ve always rejected the concept of a deity mostly because there was no evidence for one and later I determined there is no need for one.

Is my rejection of the concept of the divine a decision?

I`m not being my usual sarcastic self here, I`m serious.

It really doesn`t matter to me one way or another

 

[Magic Man]

I did have to analyze and reject numerous theologies in my life and it could be argued those rejections were decisions not to believe in those particular deities.

So yes, rejecting the contradictory properties of a human god construct is a decision.
I have decided not to believe in Allah, Jehovah, Zeus and so on.

I think the main question is whether or not you feel that believing in those things was truly an option for you. Do you feel like you could have said 'Yes, I believe in them" and actually believed in them? Personally I don't. I can't imagine myself believing anything else.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I could no more decide to not be an atheist, than to decide that the sky is green. It's not a decision, it's an observation.

 

[linwood]

I think the main question is whether or not you feel that believing in those things was truly an option for you. Do you feel like you could have said 'Yes, I believe in them" and actually believed in them? Personally I don't. I can't imagine myself believing anything else.

True, it was never an option considering my requirements for belief in anything.

If it was a decision it wasn`t a very difficult one.

 

[Alceste]

Believe it or not I`m unsure now as to whether atheism is a decision or not.

I was never a theist, there has never been a moment in my life in which I held a belief in a deity.

I believe it. I agree with you. I've never believed in any gods either, and went through a similar process of double-checking (because that's what critical thinking is) by going to a few churches, reading a few holy books, toying with creating different concepts of God to see what effect they had on my well-being, and discussing religion with people of faith. None of this was a decision. It is in my nature to investigate all possible angles before coming to a conclusion. (It's also in my nature that the conclusion I reach after this process always matches the hypothesis I started with, but that's maybe a topic for another thread. )

Is my rejection of the concept of the divine a decision?

No, I don't think so. I think it is probably your nature. There was another thread on "What would it take to make you believe?" or something. For ages I used to say "Nothing would convince me" to this question, because belief is not in my nature. I've changed my tune now, though. All it would take is for me to wake up one day believing in God.

Luckily for me, though, it's not in my nature to fight change, so I wouldn't have a difficult time with this. I would go "Hm. How curious." and proceed to building a chapel in the back garden. But I could never decide to believe in god. Any god that doesn't have the power to infuse my nature with belief - without requiring me to chase after her - is not worth worshiping.

 

[linwood]

(It's also in my nature that the conclusion I reach after this process always matches the hypothesis I started with, but that's maybe a topic for another thread. )

I seem to experience the same phenomena myself.
That would make a good topic in the atheist forums.

No, I don't think so. I think it is probably your nature. There was another thread on "What would it take to make you believe?" or something.

Yes, that`s how it feels to me.
I don`t recall ever going through the process I call "deciding" and then choosing the thing that is rationally more beneficial to me.

 

[Nepenthe]

The whole argument brings to mind the "scientist believe in evolution" trope or similar claims. We don't believe or choose, we infer based on the evidence, whether philosophical or scientific. So it's makes no sense to claim that I believe in evolution; evolution is a fact regardless what my personal opinion or choice is. And atheism is not my choice either, it is inferred from the philosophical and logical arguments. I can't suspend or ignore the contradictory attributes of the Abrahamic deity and choose to believe or not believe in its existence anymore than I can choose pi to be 3.14...
I think I'm just parroting what's already been said.

But if Alceste ever builds that chapel in her garden I'll bring cake for the bake sale and arrange Wednesday night bingo.