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Atheists: Is that your final answer?

Alceste

Vagabond
The whole argument brings to mind the "scientist believe in evolution" trope or similar claims. We don't believe or choose, we infer based on the evidence, whether philosophical or scientific. So it's makes no sense to claim that I believe in evolution; evolution is a fact regardless what my personal opinion or choice is. And atheism is not my choice either, it is inferred from the philosophical and logical arguments. I can't suspend or ignore the contradictory attributes of the Abrahamic deity and choose to believe or not believe in its existence anymore than I can choose pi to be 3.14...
I think I'm just parroting what's already been said. :eek:


Yeah, but maybe if all us heathens repeat it often enough eventually it will sink in. :D

But if Alceste ever builds that chapel in her garden I'll bring cake for the bake sale and arrange Wednesday night bingo.

For the moment, looks like it's going to have to be a taiji dojo. But there will still be bake sales!
 

Imagist

Worshipper of Athe.
I dunno about bake sales. Girl scout season is like the ultimate bake sale. Anything else pales in comparison.

As a side note: it is illegal to sell food that was cooked in a non-FDA-approved kitchen. As a result, the vast majority of bake sales in the US are illegal. A recent article in the New York Times said that the FDA is planning a crackdown on these illegal bake sales due to a few outbreaks of foodborne illness. How effective this crackdown will be is questionable, but I would wait to do the bake sales at least until you can figure out what exactly your chances of getting caught are. Unfortunately, getting FDA approval is unlikely to be a monetarily sound decision.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
As a side note: it is illegal to sell food that was cooked in a non-FDA-approved kitchen. As a result, the vast majority of bake sales in the US are illegal. A recent article in the New York Times said that the FDA is planning a crackdown on these illegal bake sales due to a few outbreaks of foodborne illness.

Unbelievable.
The FDA complains of a lack of funds to adequately inspect commercial food production facilities but has the resources to harass elementary schools.

Priorities, priorities,
***?
 

Alceste

Vagabond
I dunno about bake sales. Girl scout season is like the ultimate bake sale. Anything else pales in comparison.

As a side note: it is illegal to sell food that was cooked in a non-FDA-approved kitchen. As a result, the vast majority of bake sales in the US are illegal. A recent article in the New York Times said that the FDA is planning a crackdown on these illegal bake sales due to a few outbreaks of foodborne illness. How effective this crackdown will be is questionable, but I would wait to do the bake sales at least until you can figure out what exactly your chances of getting caught are. Unfortunately, getting FDA approval is unlikely to be a monetarily sound decision.

Well, there's one more reason to thank the stars I don't live in America. You can come up to my Canadian bake sale once the dojo is completed.
 

Imagist

Worshipper of Athe.
Unbelievable.
The FDA complains of a lack of funds to adequately inspect commercial food production facilities but has the resources to harass elementary schools.

Priorities, priorities,
***?

My guess is that it's mostly a show of power to quiet the public outrage over the food-borne illness incidents I mentioned earlier. I don't think that the FDA actually considers illegal bake sales a problem, but they have to play the posturing games to appease protestors, lest those protestors find a way to get the FDA funding cut and make their problems worse.
 
Mr Spinkles said:
I don't think it's accurate to say that atheism is a decision, although this may be true some of the time, for some people. It was not true for me. I never decided not to believe any more, I was incapable of believing any more.
Why was that?
Why was I incapable of believing anymore? That's a difficult question to answer. I suppose I had simply read and learned and questioned too many things. It never felt like a decision, it felt more like all the facts I sought out intruded themselves upon my worldview, altering it in ways I didn't anticipate, or want.

For example, I studied the NT in a high school theology class. I was committed to believing the stories, but it was tough. I expected to be blown away by the truth and profundity of NT stories. But Jesus rubbing dirt and spit in a blind man's eyes to heal him? Casting out a horde of demons and putting them into a bunch of pigs? The Gospels were written 100 years after the fact, by non-eyewitnesses? They contradict each other? I was swimming against a current of facts and reason.

And then I read things like Socrates' apology, and Siddhartha, and Hume's arguments about "miracles", and I learned about evolution and the laws of thermodynamics, etc. Now here were things which really did blow me away with their truth and profundity, with no special effort on my part.

Another example: I was one of several Kairos leaders (it's a sort of spiritual retreat for the senior class) at my Catholic high school. I wrote a short speech and practiced it in front of some teachers and students beforehand. I was questioning the human characteristics of God, saying that it seems to me you need a brain to have intelligence and emotions; unless God has a brain, he must not have these qualities; we just project intelligence and emotions onto God because that's the natural way for us to understand something that is ultimately beyond our comprehension.

The teachers were not happy at all. Apparently I had committed some sort of grave sin, without realizing it. They said I had to write a different speech. In fact, I had to write about a different topic entirely. In my own mind, I was exploring theological ideas which made God more plausible, more worthy of contemplation, more compatible with science. I knew my ideas departed from the traditional ones, and so it felt almost like a confession of deviation; but I still thought I was within the bounds of Christianity. And it seemed to me that it was all in the spirit of Kairos: deep, thoughtful reflection about God. That's exactly what I was doing. (Of course, what any traditional religious retreat means by deep reflection is the kind of "reflection" which reaffirms the standard dogmas, and keeps within the modest wiggle room allowed by those dogmas.)

However, one teacher said, very gravely, I was basically advocating atheism. The manner in which he said this, and the way it was received by everyone (including me) and the subsequent tone in the room, was exactly the same as if he had said (correctly) that I was basically advocating racism.

After all, if God doesn't have intelligence or emotions, it's not really "God", it's just "the Universe" or something. "Atheism" wasn't a word I was very familiar with, but I knew it had connotations of a ridiculous, absurd, mean-spirited rejection of everything sane and good. That's why my speech could not be allowed. It was startling, and embarrassing, and shameful to hear that I had said something so corrupting, that I could not say it in front of all my friends and teachers. Because I had merely confessed what was on my mind...do I have a twisted mind? And was my speech so different from the speech another student gave, about how God wants this and that, etc.....it's all honest speculation anyway, right?

But it slowly occurred to me that, whether I liked it or not, whether I had intended it or not, he was right, what I was saying was not much different from atheism. I couldn't see any way around it.
 
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Bedlam

Improperly Undefined
Why was I incapable of believing anymore? That's a difficult question to answer. I suppose I had simply read and learned and questioned too many things. It never felt like a decision, it felt more like all the facts I sought out intruded themselves upon my worldview, altering it in ways I didn't anticipate, or want.

Just like being gay, Atheism isn't a choice ;o)

(Wonderfully written, Mr Sprinkles! I couldn't have said it better myself.)
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
I was questioning the human characteristics of God, saying that it seems to me you need a brain to have intelligence and emotions... After all, if God doesn't have intelligence or emotions, it's not really "God", it's just "the Universe" or something.

However, one teacher said, very gravely, I was basically advocating atheism.
He was wrong. You were advocating Mormonism. :D :sorry1:
 

Jackytar

Ex-member
Coming in late on this. I find it notable that the analogies with reference to the "evidence" for the existence of God were all in terms of the objective, natural world - you know, teapots in space, marbles in a bag, shape-shifting chairs and so forth. The material world is all there is and as it contains no evidence of God, so the atheist argument goes, we remain profoundly sceptical of His existence.

Have a look at the recent thread "Are Atheists Happy". Lots of comments were made by atheists - none of them questioning the existence of "happy". So I wonder - if you have a high level of certainty that God doesn't exist because you cannot find any material manifestation of Him, what do you think of the experience of "happy"? Does it exist?

Not to muddy the waters with a discussion of cognitive phenomena here. I just want to make the point that we don't look for evidence of "happy" with our senses or our instruments. "Happy" is a construct of the mind, as are many things - like music, the color red, and even geometry. Can you show me a two dimensional plane or a point in space?

This agnostic could care less if there are contradictions in our holy books or if religious dogma defies logic. To me, it is all pure folly, not worthy of careful examination. It simply doesn't suit my epistemology to consider God from an empirical standpoint.

To fully evaluate the question of God you must examine God the construct of the mind. I don't know what that is, but it seems as universal to the human condition as a lot of other very "real" constructs of the mind that are impossible to quantify. And the mind, unlike the objective, material world, truly is and will remain an unfathomable place.

It's true that we have been able to figure out lots of seemingly impossible stuff, and we are deserving in our confidence that this will continue. But as intellectual frontiers go the mind or consciousness is in a class of it's own. For here we are not regarding the objective world, as in all other fields of inquiry. When we study the mind we are also regarding the subjective self. Historically we have been very good at the former, and really crappy at the latter.

Evolutionary biology, as applied to the mind, does fit in neatly with everything else we know about the natural world. By this theory, our minds, just as all other manifestations of life on earth, are a material product of evolution, rooted in three pounds of wrinkled brain tissue. When the brain dies, the mind dies with it along with any notion of God. Makes sense to me. A somewhat disquieting thought but it's not like our mind is going to be hanging around in some cold dark place feeling sorry for itself. We will simply cease to be, and so will God. If this is so, I'm cool with that.

But I can only say with certainty that the deep secrets of the mind appear to be unreachable, and state my belief that we will never close the gap. And in the space that remains there will always be room for the irreducible self; it's existence unknowable to objective reason, yet nevertheless experienced by all of us.

Jackytar
 

JMorris

Democratic Socialist
im an atheist when it comes to religion. all religions are man made (and usually heavily influenced by the culture in which their practiced) so i dont see any way they could be right. im an agnostic about a higher consciousness. i wouldnt call him a god. i tend to think everything is linked creating an unseeable consciousness, or maybe not, im agnostic so i dont know.
 

Imagist

Worshipper of Athe.
Have a look at the recent thread "Are Atheists Happy". Lots of comments were made by atheists - none of them questioning the existence of "happy". So I wonder - if you have a high level of certainty that God doesn't exist because you cannot find any material manifestation of Him, what do you think of the experience of "happy"? Does it exist?

Yes. Happiness has material manifestations which include hormones and bioelectric activity.

Not to muddy the waters with a discussion of cognitive phenomena here. I just want to make the point that we don't look for evidence of "happy" with our senses or our instruments. "Happy" is a construct of the mind, as are many things - like music, the color red, and even geometry. Can you show me a two dimensional plane or a point in space?

The problems of music, red, and geometry aren't questions of existence, but of definition. They aren't phenomena or causes of phenomena, but descriptive labels.

God, on the other hand, would be a phenomena or a cause if he existed. So your comparison is illegitimate.
 

Bedlam

Improperly Undefined
im an atheist when it comes to religion. all religions are man made (and usually heavily influenced by the culture in which their practiced) so i dont see any way they could be right. im an agnostic about a higher consciousness. i wouldnt call him a god. i tend to think everything is linked creating an unseeable consciousness, or maybe not, im agnostic so i dont know.

We're all atheists when it comes to religion... it's just that some of us make an exception.

And you're right! I wouldn't call it a god either. Whatever it is, it's just an extension of ourselves.

Thanks for sharing. You've got it! *two thumbs up*
 

JMorris

Democratic Socialist
We're all atheists when it comes to religion... it's just that some of us make an exception.

And you're right! I wouldn't call it a god either. Whatever it is, it's just an extension of ourselves.

Thanks for sharing. You've got it! *two thumbs up*

thanks (assuming your not being sarcastic, im paranoid that way:help:):D
 
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