Atheists: Is that your final answer?

[LuisDantas]

But it got me wondering why, if someone was absolutely convinced that there was no God, he would be all that put out by my pointing out that it didn't seem to me as if there was any chance of him changing his mind.

Possibly because in so doing you imply that there is a choice, which by its turn insinuates that disbelief is a form of stubborness. Most atheisms, I think, simply find the idea of belief in God puzzling if not all-out disproven by reality.

I started wondering about how atheists see atheism as opposed to agnosticism, so I thought I'd start this thread. I really have nothing against atheists and I see myself as firm in my convictions as they are in theirs. So if they're "closed minded," so am I.

However, you believe in a specific variety of God (or so I would assume, since you're LDS). Perhaps being a theist is not a choice for you (some people seem to simply be born that way, so to speak), but following a path is far more demonstrably a choice.

It's once again that matter of atheism being a negative assertion, while theism is a positive one (about the existence of God). Claims about existence demand evidence, while claims about inexistence generally don't.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That is totally understandable. Mormons are so accustomed to saying, "I know..." with respect to their beliefs, and I've always been uncomfortable saying that. I would have to say that "for all practical purposes, I conduct my life in accordance with the idea that there is a God. To me, the chance that there is not a God is so close to zero that it may as well me zero."

Fair enough. Like I said, I don't think any knowledge is ever really 100% certain, so that's really any of us can really honestly say about anything, IMO.

I'm just not comfortable saying "I know..." when it comes to things I can't actually prove. On the other hand, I find it very frustrating to be told that because I can't prove what I so strongly believe, I'm gullible and naive.

I don't think you're either of those.

 

[LuisDantas]

Seconded, 9/10ths.

 

[ifndef]

Hi, neighbor! Welcome to RF! An atheist in Idaho, huh? Must be lonely.

Well, it wouldn't be the first time I was wrong.

So why wouldn't you call yourself an agnostic?

But the fact of the matter is that I could quote dozens of atheists on this forum alone who have specifically said, "There is no God!"

lol @ idaho comment

Why wouldn't I call myself an agnostic...
To me, a true agnostic (as opposed to an atheist calling himself an agnostic) is someone that doesn't have a belief either way. Whether they don't care to really ponder the question or they just want to stay on middle ground... who knows...

But I have given religion consideration in my teenage years and have read about and studied several major religions during college and after and the more I educate myself on religion... the more strongly I feel about the falsity of them.

@Quoting dozens of atheists that say there is no God
Those are what you would define as strong atheists. Just as there are theists that will say there is a god (with certainty), there are also atheists that will say there is not a god (with certainty). But in both groups there are many people that won't assert a claim, they either believe there is a god or they lack the belief in one. For lack of better terms they would just be weak theists and weak atheists.

 

[Katzpur]

Possibly because in so doing you imply that there is a choice, which by its turn insinuates that disbelief is a form of stubborness.

I can see what you're saying. Thanks for pointing that out.

However, you believe in a specific variety of God (or so I would assume, since you're LDS). Perhaps being a theist is not a choice for you (some people seem to simply be born that way, so to speak), but following a path is far more demonstrably a choice.

Right again.

Claims about existence demand evidence, while claims about inexistence generally don't.

Yeah. And this is why I generally steer clear of threads where I feel backed into a corner about my beliefs. As you seem to understand, I didn't choose to be a theist any more than you chose not to be one. You don't have to prove anything to anybody, but I am always under pressure to do so. Also, as you said, following a path is more of a choice. That's probably why I am more comfortable debating why I believe my choice of path (LDS Christianity) to be the right one than I am debating why something I didn't specifically choose (theism) is right.

 

[ifndef]

The question is why is the onus on the atheist to disprove the existence of God as opposed to the onus on the theist to prove God's existence?

Good question; I can make hundreds of claims that cannot be disproved, but that would not give any more credibility or consideration to the claims.

extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and that what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence

 

[linwood]

Since it is the lack of this proof that would have led the rational atheist to the conclusion of God's non-existence, it stands to reason that if offered this proof, an intelligent atheist would be forced to change their minds.

Yes exactly!
(You said it so much better than I did)


As I said earlier, if confronted with acceptable evidence of the existence of a deity I would simply "have to" become a theist.
From the moment my mind realized the evidence was irrefutable I would be a theist.
I have no choice in the matter.

 

[linwood]

I just checked six online dictionaries....in every one of them agnostic is listed as a noun first. Phew. Guess I get to keep my agnosticism label.

Damn! Dictionary smackdown!


You keep whatever label you like.

 

[Magic Man]

Okay, so I got myself into all kinds of trouble the other night by suggesting that atheists are closed-minded about the possibility of God existing. So I'm here to ask you, isn't an atheist who might be willing to change his mind about God existing really just an agnostic?

I've always figured that agnostics (weak or strong) doubt the existance of God, but believe it's really impossible to know for sure. I've always thought that theists were absolutely convinced that there is a God and that atheists were absolutely convinced that there isn't one. So when an atheist tells me that if the supposedly non-existant God were to do such and such, he'd believe in Him, I counter with the statement that I don't believe he would. If he's an atheist, he's made up his mind already. Then all hell breaks loose and I have to run for my life.

So, all you atheists... Your answer is, "There is no God." But... is that your final answer? And if it isn't, why don't you consider yourself agnostic?

My answer is not "There is no God". My answer is "I don't believe in a theistic god". I don't consider myself an agnostic for the same reason most theists don't. Anyone who's reasonable will admit the possibility that they're wrong even about God. I'll admit I could be wrong and there is a God. However, until there is some kind of evidence pointing directly and only to God, I'll assume He doesn't exist.

It's the same way I'm an aleprechaunist. It's possible that leprechauns exist, but I've never seen any good evidence that they do, so I'll continue to assume they don't.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Okay, so I got myself into all kinds of trouble the other night by suggesting that atheists are closed-minded about the possibility of God existing. So I'm here to ask you, isn't an atheist who might be willing to change his mind about God existing really just an agnostic?

Great question.

Since a bunch of good answers have been given to this question of semantics, I'd just like to throw a tangential observation out there:

Notice that technicalities about the precise character of disbelief aren't considered important when it comes to most claims. We don't ask if people are "A---" or merely "Agnostic" with respect to the lost city of Atlantis, etc. etc.

I think this is a reflection of the special connection between the God claim (in general) and belief in the claim. No one is worried that if the Lost City of Atlantis existed, it would be offended by our lack of belief in it, it's ability to help us would be enhanced by belief in it, the evidence for its existence would become clear if only we believed in it, it would be noble/virtuous to take a "leap of faith" even when it seems like Atlantis is not there, life would not have meaning if we didn't believe in it, etc. etc.

Those stipulations make me think of a guy running up to you on the street who cries: "You're in great danger! Quick, give me your wallet--no time to explain!" The claim itself is designed to get you to accept it, without evidence. All the more reason to slow down and look very carefully at the evidence.

 

[3.14]

atheist is based on rational thought, no god there but if people can rationaly prove there is a god atheist wou belief it
agnostic is based on the theory that you can be wrong or right so best not to get involved

 

[Aupmanyav]

So, all you atheists... Your answer is, "There is no God." But... is that your final answer? And if it isn't, why don't you consider yourself agnostic?

Final answer, 'there is no God.

 

[Katzpur]

Final answer, 'there is no God.

May I ask you a question, then? You describe your religion as Hindu. Do you think of yourself as a "cultural Hindu" (for lack of better words)? I thought Hinduism was theistic. I don't know much about it, though, so I could be wrong. I didn't know a Hindu could be an atheist. I know most Buddhists are, which came as news to me when I first heard it, but is that the same with Hindus?

 

[MyMessiah]

I was once an agnostic (after ditching Christianity for good) because I knew that you couldn't disprove god, but I realize now that the real reason is because I was afraid of death. Think about it, what logical reason do we have to believe in any sort of gods? There is no evidence, and there never will be. The Bible is as credible as L. Ron Hubbard, and has caused millions of more deaths too.

 

[Katzpur]

I was once an agnostic (after ditching Christianity for good) because I knew that you couldn't disprove god, but I realize now that the real reason is because I was afraid of death.

Interesting. I've actually never been afraid of death, but I know some people are.

Think about it, what logical reason do we have to believe in any sort of gods? There is no evidence, and there never will be. The Bible is as credible as L. Ron Hubbard, and has caused millions of more deaths too.

I have no interest whatsoever in debating the existance of God, but thanks for your comments.

 

[Inky]

As an atheist, I'm basing my belief that God doesn't exist on my accumulated knowledge and experience and that of other people, so it's just like my belief that my cell phone works because of satellites in space, or that people get irritable when they're hungry, or that Australia is in the southern hemisphere. It's an external belief, you might say, not an internal belief like whether I like my dog more than my cat or what my favorite sandwich is. I could be wrong, but it would make me very surprised based on what I know about the world. (I don't mean that to be offensive to theists; it's just the way I approach the question.)

I wouldn't define myself as agnostic, because I think there's a big difference between saying you don't know the answer to a question and saying you have an answer but would change it if loads of opposing evidence suddenly popped up. Agnostic, to me, says "I don't know", and atheist says "I know, but if new information comes my way I'll deal with it as it comes." I don't have a final answer, because the concept of having a final answer doesn't relate to the way I make my beliefs about these things. I'm sure some agnostics and atheists approach things differently, but that's how I view it.

 

[Seven]

If someone says they're an atheist, the most you can infer is that they accept there is no credible evidence for the existence of a deity. This is different from saying 'I believe there is no god'.

The whole point of atheism is that it allows freedom from belief systems, viewing evidence and the scientific process, rather than faith and divine revelation, as the ultimate tools for finding truth.

So I would say that It's not an answer, it's an approach to life and its mysteries.
My final answer at this stage about most things is 'I don't know'

 

[BucephalusBB]

It is merely a label. The label I would put on myself needs to reflect my thoughts for others to get a good image..
If I were to put Agnost as label, people would think I am somewhat in the middle. Like 50-50% and I would think it will be never provable etc.. Further quetions would provide further info.
If I were to put Atheist as label, people would think I don't believe in a god.

I see things in this world that do not need God. I see a world perfectly working on it's own. I see rules and pattern. This al tells me a God is not needed. I don't know for sure, as I just can't. I even can't be sure if one of the religions is right. But I do think that there is no God needed.

Now what label should fit there...?

 

[Aupmanyav]

May I ask you a question, then? You describe your religion as Hindu. Do you think of yourself as a "cultural Hindu" (for lack of better words)? I thought Hinduism was theistic. I don't know much about it, though, so I could be wrong. I didn't know a Hindu could be an atheist. I know most Buddhists are, which came as news to me when I first heard it, but is that the same with Hindus?

I am culturally and philosophically a hindu. As you know, we have the non-dualistic (advaita) belief in hinduism, which does not leave any space for God, unless one considers oneself as God. But I am not a God.

But rest assured, most hindus are theistic, though to the consternation of some people, most of them worship hundreds of Gods and Goddesses.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I was once an agnostic (after ditching Christianity for good) because I knew that you couldn't disprove god, but I realize now that the real reason is because I was afraid of death. Think about it, what logical reason do we have to believe in any sort of gods? There is no evidence, and there never will be.

Don't believe in God, and your fear of death will go away.