Atheists Pressure MI School District to Stop Treating the Birth of Jesus as Fact

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Denying the existence of Jesus makes zero sense. You would think if he didn't exist, the Jews would've said that. Instead the Jews talked about him and said he was the illegitimate son of a Roman soldier. The Romans would've loved to use that information in their persecutions of Christians, too. The stance makes zero sense.

The stance makes sense simply because there is zero evidence in support of an historical Jesus.

All--repeat-- all examples of "evidence" are from highly biased sources who each have an agenda to prove historicity.

The fact there is absolutely zero documentation from during Jesus' alleged lifetime? Is the most compelling lack of all.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

The evidence is there, it is in the interpretation of the evidence where we disagree.

Go look up the word "evidence"-- if you have to believe in some Lie first? It ain't actually evidence...

 

[Curious George]

Because it is equality for all not for profit organizations. His point was "only religions get the benefit".

But it is not equality for all non-profits.

 

[Kenny]

But it is not equality for all non-profits.

how so?

 

[Curious George]

how so?

Because church exemption is different than non-profit exemption. The requirements and process for exempt status are different. The laws regarding property tax exemption can differ depending on the state. Generally, it is easier for religious groups, because of presumptions, to get tax exemption and it is also less reviewed in order to avoid church-state entanglement issues.

 

[Kenny]

Because church exemption is different than non-profit exemption. The requirements and process for exempt status are different. The laws regarding property tax exemption can differ depending on the state. Generally, it is easier for religious groups, because of presumptions, to get tax exemption and it is also less reviewed in order to avoid church-state entanglement issues.

True, the government was never created to control faith. Faith was always to have influence in government

 

[Curious George]

True, the government was never created to control faith. Faith was always to have influence in government

I am not quite sure that I wpuld put it that way. Faith was viewed as a virtue worth fostering. Certainly the separation of Church and State is there to prevent any particular faith from having undue influence.

 

[wellwisher]

Non-Christian sources used to study and establish the historicity of Jesus include the c. first century Jewish historian Josephus and Roman historian Tacitus. These sources are compared to Christian sources, such as the Pauline letters and synoptic gospels, and are usually independent of each other; that is, the Jewish sources do not draw upon the Roman sources. Similarities and differences between these sources are used in the authentication process.[31][32][33][33][34]

In Books 18 and 20 of Antiquities of the Jews, written around AD 93 to 94, Josephus twice refers to the biblical Jesus. The general scholarly view holds that the longer passage, known as the Testimonium Flavianum, most likely consists of an authentic nucleus that was subjected to later Christian interpolation or forgery.[35][36] On the other hand, Josephus scholar Louis H. Feldman states that "few have doubted the genuineness" of the reference found in Antiquities 20, 9, 1 to "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James".[37][38][39][40]

The main point is how is it possible for someone like Jesus, not to be real, yet still impact people for 2000 years while being a force for change throughout the world? Hollywood and other Media make stars all the time. Political parties make their own stars, yet these all have a very short shelf life. Obama was the messiah of the left for a few years but has since atrophied. What lingers for thousands of years is real and created by God.

Jesus was a thorn in the side of the Jews and then the Romans due to the growing Christian movement of the 1st century and beyond. There was a concerted effort to minimize Jesus and his religion, in an attempt to stop the bleeding of their own rank and file. This resulted in purging of any physical records. The faithful had to carry records in their minds through recollection. The stories changed as they were passed down in various directions.

It was not until 100 years or so after Jesus, did historians began to filter through the debris to find clues. There had been a genocide of Christians in an attempt to neutralize the movement. It destroyed most hard records. The atheists appear to be an extension of that genocide cult, still stuck in their first century glory days of book burning.

 

[Curious George]

The atheists appear to be an extension of that genocide cult, still stuck in their first century glory days of book burning.

I do not think that is true.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

The main point is how is it possible for someone like Jesus, not to be real, yet still impact people for 2000 years while being a force for change throughout the world? Hollywood and other Media make stars all the time. Political parties make their own stars, yet these all have a very short shelf life. Obama was the messiah of the left for a few years but has since atrophied. What lingers for thousands of years is real and created by God.

Jesus was a thorn in the side of the Jews and then the Romans due to the growing Christian movement of the 1st century and beyond. There was a concerted effort to minimize Jesus and his religion, in an attempt to stop the bleeding of their own rank and file. This resulted in purging of any physical records. The faithful had to carry records in their minds through recollection. The stories changed as they were passed down in various directions.

It was not until 100 years or so after Jesus, did historians began to filter through the debris to find clues. There had been a genocide of Christians in an attempt to neutralize the movement. It destroyed most hard records. The atheists appear to be an extension of that genocide cult, still stuck in their first century glory days of book burning.

Argument From Incredulity Logical Fallacy.

Also, Argument from Popularity Logical Fallacy.

The Jesus Myth lasted because the story was used by the Powerful to control the masses.

It was Useful. So it persisted.

 

[Kenny]

I am not quite sure that I wpuld put it that way. Faith was viewed as a virtue worth fostering. Certainly the separation of Church and State is there to prevent any particular faith from having undue influence.

OK... I wouldn't actually use the new term of separation of Church of State but rather "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" - which is, IMV, a big difference.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

What lingers for thousands of years is real and created by God.

He sure has created a lot of religions, then! Hinduism, Buddhism, Shintoism, Chinese folk religion, Korean shamanism, African traditional religion, etc.

There had been a genocide of Christians in an attempt to neutralize the movement. It destroyed most hard records

No, there wasn't. There were periodic persecutions, which have been exaggerated in Christian martyrdom folktales, but never an actual genocide or attempt to erase them from history. The Romans were far harsher towards the Druids and other Northern tribes than they ever were towards Christians. We know next to nothing about the Druids thanks to them. Now that could be called a genocide.

 

[Jose Fly]

Faith was always to have influence in government

Then why did the founders go out of their way to specifically prohibit religious tests for public office?

 

[Jose Fly]

OK... I wouldn't actually use the new term of separation of Church of State but rather "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" - which is, IMV, a big difference.

It's not a new term.

Jefferson's Letter to the Danbury Baptists (June 1998) - Library of Congress Information Bulletin

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;" thus building a wall of eternal separation between Church & State."

 

[Subduction Zone]

It's not a new term.

Jefferson's Letter to the Danbury Baptists (June 1998) - Library of Congress Information Bulletin

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;" thus building a wall of eternal separation between Church & State."

Did you see the date in the blue part of your link ""(June 1998)"? Not a new term? Hah! Checkmate atheists!

 

[Kenny]

Then why did the founders go out of their way to specifically prohibit religious tests for public office?

That isn't Christianity. Free will is Christianity.

Why did they use the Bible in Public Schools? Or have God in EVERY State Constitution?

 

[Subduction Zone]

That isn't Christianity. Free will is Christianity.

Why did they use the Bible in Public Schools? Or have God in EVERY State Constitution?

Not every state constitution. Four only refer indirectly to a god. More intelligent people tend to live in those four states

God or the divine is referenced in every state constitution

 

[Kenny]

It's not a new term.

Jefferson's Letter to the Danbury Baptists (June 1998) - Library of Congress Information Bulletin

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;" thus building a wall of eternal separation between Church & State."

I stand corrected in how I said it. The proper way is "The new application of...."

Because the application was " I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

Thus it was government not establishing a religion, which has nothing to do with today's modern application. "And the free exercise thereof", which certainly isn't true today.

 

[Kenny]

Not every state constitution. Four only refer indirectly to a god. More intelligent people tend to live in those four states

God or the divine is referenced in every state constitution

Really? you might want to read through what you are quoting.

 

[Jose Fly]

That isn't Christianity. Free will is Christianity.

Sorry, but I don't understand how that relates to what I asked. You claimed that the founding fathers intended for faith to influence government. I'm asking you, why then did they prohibit religious tests for public office?

Why did they use the Bible in Public Schools? Or have God in EVERY State Constitution?

Because for a very long time in this country, the majority of the population was Christian and non-Christians were effectively second-class citizens. So government promotion of Christianity was rarely challenged. It's only been since about the 1960's that that's changed.