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Atheists vs. Theists -- Why Debate is Impossible

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
...how in the world do you people invariably, keep missing the point???
Oh, I knew full well the point you were trying to make. I was just pointing out the part that you overlooked.

For a long, long time, Christians would routinely murder non-Christians for not becoming Christian. Only a fool would think that had nothing to do with how Christianity managed to become so widespread.
 

DNB

Christian
That may not be quite the endorsement that you think it is. Besides, Christ had little to do with Christianity's success as a world religion, although that is irrelevant to my point. Christianity has not been good for mankind. I realize that you believe otherwise - you have to if you are to remain a Christian - but Christianity has been an anchor on Western intellectual and moral evolution. Fortunately, humanism rescued the West from theism to a large degree and helped civilize Christianity, which was still conducting inquisitions and hanging women as witches when the deist instituted the humanistic model of government including church-state separation and a host of guaranteed persons rights including freedom from religion. Compare that with the Muslim world, which has NOT had the benefit of four centuries of humanism, and is still pushing people off of towers and burning them alive in cages with theistic governments' approval or condoning.



"You stare into your high definition plasma screen monitor, type into your cordless keyboard then hit enter, which causes your computer to convert all that visual data into a binary signal that's processed by millions of precise circuits. This is then converted to a frequency modulated signal to reach your wireless router where it is then converted to light waves and sent along a large fiber optics cable to be processed by a super computer on a mass server. This sends that bit you typed to a satellite orbiting the earth that was put there through the greatest feats of engineering and science, all so it could go back through a similar pathway to make it all the way here to my computer monitor 15,000 miles away from you just so you could say, "Science is all a bunch of manmade hogwash."- anon.



Debate is impossible if both debaters are not critical thinkers engaging one another's claims with rebuttal (falsifying counterargument), a process also called dialectic.



No, the atheist perceives what every other human being with a functioning sensory system perceives, and he has the same neural circuits to interpret them. The difference is how they do that, how they interpret those apprehensions. The theist has misunderstood his own mental state. He thinks it is showing him something other than his own mind. But this is common to the human condition. Man has long misunderstood his own thoughts as evidence of an external reality informing those thoughts.

We know that the ancient Greeks made this mistake regarding creative inspirations, which they had no concept of arising from within, so they invented the muses, who they imagined were transmitting artistic intuitions to them. Likewise with the Christian model of internal conflict between older and newer neural centers (cognitive dissonance) depicted as God speaking and the devil trying to steal one's soul. And then there's people who see dreams as messages. It's all the same phenomenon - assigning external agency to internal intuitions.



No, that's a description of empiricism, which goes from evidence to sound conclusion. Faith is the opposite. It begins with unjustified premises, then massages the evidence tomake it seem to support the premise, as if that premise were a conclusion rather than the starting point.



The theist has no more evidence, and I've told what I think of these so-called profound insights. They're errors. Profound insights are the kinds of ideas that change worlds. Humanism was a profound insight, and it has improved the human condition dramatically. Our lives are longer, safer, more functional, freer, easier, more comfortable, and more interesting thanks to Enlightenment values ascending. Theism can make no such claim.



LOL. How many theists know what a mammal is? Christianity has misjudged humanity from the start, thinking man was created in the image of a god with a soul rather than evolving from apes. There is no such thing as sin. Christianity depicts man as a spiritually diseased race born fit for perdition and needing salvation. That's incorrect, and a very damaging doctrine except to the institution that has the only remedy.

Your atheophobia is natural for your demographic, the Abrahamic theist. Your religion teaches it because it doesn't like dissenting opinion. It teaches that atheists are empty vessels living pointless lives, fixed on some limiting epistemological paradigm that strips life of meaning and color.

I saw this recently and had a chuckle. Here's a spiritualist (maybe a theist as well, I don't know) placing himself above those with religion, and both above the atheist, who is described to be as empty as a robotic vacuum mindlessly bumping into objects in the room and "measuring" them then turning and mindlessly going somewhere else until it makes another measurement:

View attachment 69135




If your argument is because a god exists, you're wrong. People have a proclivity to assign agency to all action, and to seek to control their fates by appealing to unseen deities with prayers and sacrifices. This is the bottom-up part. Others see an opportunity to manage them, and develop organized systems to do that. That's the bottom-down aspect that leads to organized religions.



That's much of the evidence that the religions have nothing to do with an actual god. Those same people are of multiple and varied languages. Both are systems of symbols that evolve as nested hierarchies. If these religions had anything to do with an actual god, there would be only one, just as there is only one periodic table of the elements. That's the power of empiricism.
...remember when I said that '...theists perceive what atheists don't...'? Did you understand what I meant at all?
 

DNB

Christian
Oh, I knew full well the point you were trying to make. I was just pointing out the part that you overlooked.

For a long, long time, Christians would routinely murder non-Christians for not becoming Christian. Only a fool would think that had nothing to do with how Christianity managed to become so widespread.
...earth to Penguin, earth to Penguin, come in Penguin, are you there?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
...it's not my comprehension that's the concern here?
Apparently it is.

You argued that the fact that "multiple and varied religions" exist and that "many of these religions have existed since the beginning of history" is somehow evidence that atheists are wrong about God.

What you've ignored is that most of those same religions all agree on Christianity being false.

Now... do you comprehend what you're arguing well enough to recognize its hypocrisy? That's a question for you to think about, but my guess is you probably don't.
 

DNB

Christian
Apparently it is.

You argued that the fact that "multiple and varied religions" exist and that "many of these religions have existed since the beginning of history" is somehow evidence that atheists are wrong about God.

What you've ignored is that most of those same religions all agree on Christianity being false.

Now... do you comprehend what you're arguing well enough to recognize its hypocrisy? That's a question for you to think about, but my guess is you probably don't.
...what compels man to believe in something that, according to the atheist, doesn't exist?
 

WonderingWorrier

Active Member
performing miracles

I think a flaw in atheist logic is understanding exactly what prophecy and miracles are.
As I can sort any so called prophet by their ability to do signs. To accept or reject.

And I know there are theists waiting for prophecies that they will never see happen in their lifetime. Thats also because they also dont know what prophecies/miracles are. They think miracles are done by magic and explain by saying God can do anything.

Its just a misunderstanding. Prophecies were fulfilled the moment they were spoken. And that can be scientifically investigated.

Prophecies and miracles is what makes the words of the bible believable to me in a logical way.

I believe their sign language. Their words are true in what they say.

Their language is symbolic. Their words are symbols, and each symbol has its place along with other certain symbols to form groups of symbols.

The groups of symbols form a pattern that Ive seen before. They form Zodiac wheel. A map of the heavens.
 

DNB

Christian
The fact that atheists exist should be evidence for you that people aren't compelled to theism.
how long is this going to take? Like I flippin' said, the landslide majority of people that ever lived, from all over the world, from every century and millennia, believed in something that transcended the material world - last flippin' time: how is that possible if all that we came from was stardust and protoplasm???
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
If a human says in the beginning all there was was star mass and protoplasm.

It's still there the exact same state.

It hasn't ended. It hasn't begun either.

Consciousness human says I began and I ended. The theist.

Is correct but it's not a theory a human began a human ended. As we own living it.

So we aren't star mass or protoplasm.

Says an intelligent human as a human being human for humans.

Human intelligence is first versus any type of human theist who is always wrong first.

As your human thesis did not create my being.

As a human adult mind your conscious humanity says you are a creator. Only of human life.

As an adult theist it makes you very dangerous as a liar.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
how long is this going to take?
If you want to have a reasonable conversation:

- stop acting like a jerk.
- don't get pissed off when I answer the question you ask instead of the one you had in your head.

I tend to reflect the other person's tone. If you're friendly, I'll be friendly. If you snark, I'll snark back. If you get insulting - as you have been - I'll lose patience quickly.

... so how this conversation is going to go is entirely up to you.

Like I flippin' said, the landslide majority of people that ever lived, from all over the world, from every century and millennia, believed in something that transcended the material world - last flippin' time: how is that possible if all that we came from was stardust and protoplasm???
A few common traits among humans... for very good reasons, evolutionarily speaking:

- we tend to be biased more toward false positives than false negatives.

- in particular, we're pattern-seeking. Like overly pattern-seeking: "I wore my green underwear to watch the game and my team won. These must be lucky underwear."

- we also tend to overattribute agency to things we see around us... i.e. we infer - sometimes to quickly - that what we see was caused by a thinking agent. Handy skill when spotting an inukshuk and recognizing that it was put there by people, but it also causes us to antropomorphize unthinking natural processes ("the weather is bad in order to hurt us.")

These traits all on their own get us to a rudimentary form of animism. Then if you throw into the mix:

- humans' tendency to express importance through ritual,
- the occasional hallucinating "prophet" (especially in the days before a good understanding of mental illness), and
- the occasional outbreak of ergot poisoning or the like...

... then I think we have a plausible explanation for the full spectrum of religion we see in the world today.

I certainly don't think there's good reason to think that any religion needs the literal existence of an actual god to explain how it came to be.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yes, the Atheism and other " nones" people hide behind Science while science is not a function of Atheism and or "nones", please, right?
And Atheism requires no knowledge whatsoever, it is in and out
based on ignorance and or "not-knowing", please, right?

Regards
It's based on logic and reason. It's the epistemic default and, as a result, bears no burden of proof.
We just patiently wait for evidence.
 

DNB

Christian
If you want to have a reasonable conversation:

- stop acting like a jerk.
- don't get pissed off when I answer the question you ask instead of the one you had in your head.

I tend to reflect the other person's tone. If you're friendly, I'll be friendly. If you snark, I'll snark back. If you get insulting - as you have been - I'll lose patience quickly.

... so how this conversation is going to go is entirely up to you.


A few common traits among humans... for very good reasons, evolutionarily speaking:

- we tend to be biased more toward false positives than false negatives.

- in particular, we're pattern-seeking. Like overly pattern-seeking: "I wore my green underwear to watch the game and my team won. These must be lucky underwear."

- we also tend to overattribute agency to things we see around us... i.e. we infer - sometimes to quickly - that what we see was caused by a thinking agent. Handy skill when spotting an inukshuk and recognizing that it was put there by people, but it also causes us to antropomorphize unthinking natural processes ("the weather is bad in order to hurt us.")

These traits all on their own get us to a rudimentary form of animism. Then if you throw into the mix:

- humans' tendency to express importance through ritual,
- the occasional hallucinating "prophet" (especially in the days before a good understanding of mental illness), and
- the occasional outbreak of ergot poisoning or the like...

... then I think we have a plausible explanation for the full spectrum of religion we see in the world today.

I certainly don't think there's good reason to think that any religion needs the literal existence of an actual god to explain how it came to be.
how does something created in the material world, transcend into the spiritual realms - what other creature on earth, other than man, is religious?
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
" "Atheists" (commonly anti-theists) is that they only operate from a world view indicative of Christianity. "

Yes, the Atheism and the like "nones" people emerged in the West being disgusted (or in counter reaction) with the Hellenist-Paulism aka " Christianity" and there they ended their search/research and generalized it to other Religions, one gets to know, please. Right?

Regards
Huh????
Are you saying atheism, ie: lack of belief in God(s), is an artifact of Christianity?
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
As for Jesus, He rose from the dead and is alive.
Why do you say these things? Do you expect to convert someone? Do you expect anyone to seriously consider your assertion, when you provide no evidence?
Fame eventually dies and if there is no after life then what's the point of fame or wealth or anything else, it all ends up meaningless for you the moment you die.
If you have a family you no doubt leave a legacy for them and you may have left a legacy for your community or even for the whole world for a period of time BUT we and they all die and it all is meaningless in the long run unless there is an afterlife.
You seem to have an extraordinary fear of insignificance.
Do you enjoy anything in life: music, food, sex, sports, nature?

All our earthly pleasures are transitory, but they're pleasures nevertheless. We create our own meaning, purpose and significance in life. Why must life have some cosmic purpose or significance to be enjoyable?

We strut and fret our hour on stage, and then it's over. Sorry that distresses you so.
 
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mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Why do you say these things? Do you expect to convert someone? Do you expect anyone to seriously consider your assertion, when you provide no evidence?
You seem to have an extraordinary fear of insignificance.
Do you enjoy anything in life: music, food, sex, sports, nature?

All our earthly pleasures are transitory, but they're pleasures nevertheless. We create our own meaning, purpose and significance in life. Why must life have some cosmic purpose or significance to be enjoyable? we assign some cosmic significance to our lives?

We strut and fret our hour on stage, and then it's over. Sorry that distresses you so.

That is unknown. That it is over is without evidence, just as it is without evidence that there is something after this life.
 
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