Atheists vs. Theists -- Why Debate is Impossible

[F1fan]

We can scientifically measure the words in the Bible.

But if you think that I'm talking about brass then you still cant comprehend what I'm saying. Brass represents something.

Scroll up the page to post number 471 where different metals are mentioned when I was trying to explain the treasury of the lord.
Please try to pay attention.

Do you understand what I'm trying to talk about?

Well if you are going to talk in code, and use tricky language, then there's something to hide.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Well if you are going to talk in code, and use tricky language, then there's something to hide.

Yeah I know its tricky. It makes me think there is probably a good reason why I shouldnt be trying to talk about it.
But I am not talking tricky language to hide something, I am trying to have a conversation about the tricky language.


The prophets speech is very cunning. It both conceals and reveals a strange truth.

They can work their speech into the brass, the silver, and the gold.

"And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,
To devise cunning works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass". Exodus.


And their speech can be measured.

Iron - Brass - Silver - Gold


Like the different metals represent different positions of height as in this verse that shows metals according to height:

"This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass, His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay". Daniel 32-33


The metals positioning can be observed:

Iron / 90 results:

BibleGateway - Keyword Search: iron

www.biblegateway.com

Brass / 113 results:

BibleGateway - Keyword Search: brass

www.biblegateway.com

Silver / 283 results:

BibleGateway - Keyword Search: silver

www.biblegateway.com

Gold / 419 results:

BibleGateway - Keyword Search: gold

www.biblegateway.com

So we can measure the silver as an example and I could tell you that silver is the same measurement as the dust.

Look down the second column and notice that the silver, dust, and sword are in alignment.

Brass - Silver - Gold
Straw - Dust - Stubble
Spear - Sword - Bow


The silver is as dust.
Though he heap up silver as the dust, and prepare raiment as the clay; Job 27:16


And the sword is also as dust in the second column, also notice stubble is as bow in the third column.

Who raised up the righteous man from the east, called him to his foot, gave the nations before him, and made him rule over kings? he gave them as the dust to his sword, and as driven stubble to his bow. Isaiah 41:2


So the words are actually true in a unique way.

Can you understand?


Are you able to read my earlier posts and get some sort of comprehension from them?

 

[F1fan]

Yeah I know its tricky. It makes me think there is probably a good reason why I shouldnt be trying to talk about it.
But I am not talking tricky language to hide something, I am trying to have a conversation about the tricky language.


The prophets speech is very cunning. It both conceals and reveals a strange truth.

They can work their speech into the brass, the silver, and the gold.

"And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,
To devise cunning works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass". Exodus.


And their speech can be measured.

Iron - Brass - Silver - Gold


Like the different metals represent different positions of height as in this verse that shows metals according to height:

"This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass, His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay". Daniel 32-33


The metals positioning can be observed:

Iron / 90 results:

BibleGateway - Keyword Search: iron

www.biblegateway.com

Brass / 113 results:

BibleGateway - Keyword Search: brass

www.biblegateway.com

Silver / 283 results:

BibleGateway - Keyword Search: silver

www.biblegateway.com

Gold / 419 results:

BibleGateway - Keyword Search: gold

www.biblegateway.com

So we can measure the silver as an example and I could tell you that silver is the same measurement as the dust.

Look down the second column and notice that the silver, dust, and sword are in alignment.

Brass - Silver - Gold
Straw - Dust - Stubble
Spear - Sword - Bow


The silver is as dust.
Though he heap up silver as the dust, and prepare raiment as the clay; Job 27:16


And the sword is also as dust in the second column, also notice stubble is as bow in the third column.

Who raised up the righteous man from the east, called him to his foot, gave the nations before him, and made him rule over kings? he gave them as the dust to his sword, and as driven stubble to his bow. Isaiah 41:2


So the words are actually true in a unique way.

Can you understand?


Are you able to read my earlier posts and get some sort of comprehension from them?

I've read maybe half dozen of your posts and it seems you are trying to find a real material meaning from the symbolisms. Have you considered that you might be reading more into these texts than is there?

Symbolisms don't have to make sense. I keep thinking you are doing some sort of "Bible Code" thing here, but I don't see any more significance than it was clever writers keeping themselves occupied with a puzzle. Creating puzzles was a way for early humans to imply a divinity at work.

 

[Orbit]

One man's logic is another man's nonsense.
Or should I say, one man's logic is most woman's nonsense, because,in my experience, trying to use logic with a woman barely ever works.

What sexist tripe.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Have you considered that you might be reading more into these texts than is there?

Yes I have seriously considered it. Especially early on after i picked up a Bible and started reading it out of interest of what it says. I repeatedly shrugged off the word coincidences that I saw but they kept happening so i started writing them down. I had no interest in figuring out bible codes. I then had an interest in the coincidences I saw when reading the sentences of nonsense.

I noticed familiar words of the Bible were being used in sentences that didnt make any sense. I started writing them down to try to get an overview. It took me a while before I figured out what the words were doing.

They are speaking in layers of parallel layers.

Repeating the same layer in a different way makes a new layer. Nonsense found in the bible is the mixing of different parallel layers according to the words specific positions in the layers.

So a word from one layer can be put into another different parallel layer according to its original position. That makes the sentence still valid because the word has been moved out of its original layer and into another new layer but still retains the same position that it had in its original layer. The mixing of parallels confirms the words positioning in a layer. It also confirms what is being said is not just what one layer in particular says.

Even though a sentence sounds like nonsense it is still an accurate sentence because the words are all still in their specific positions.


Its what I've been trying to show and talk about.

I've read maybe half dozen of your posts and it seems you are trying to find a real material meaning from the symbolisms.

Can you please read through more of my posts in this thread and see if you can get a better understanding of what im talking about. Like try listening to when i expanded on what Im talking about by taking what i was saying in a three or four position format and slotted it into a 12 position format. Three positions to each of the four directions. Like the bible says the wolf is with the lamb etc and I show how it is correct.

Maybe you could try not listening to the bible verses that I show. Maybe just observe them. Look at what they are doing.
Im trying to talk about what they are doing.


Maybe if you can see what i can see then you will start to hear what I can hear.


If you can put the time into reading all my posts in this thread I will listen to what you have to say about it and I will accept your response as an honest opinion.

I would like some help in assessing my logic. If you say that I'm wrong I will listen.

And if you have any questions I will answer.

 

[Subduction Zone]

What sexist tripe.

Sometimes I like to joke about the "good old days" of when women could not do math, knew that men were supposed to drive, and other thoughts that are just sexist memes today. But then those jokes are ruined by people that really believe that.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yes I have seriously considered it. Especially early on after i picked up a Bible and started reading it out of interest of what it says. I repeatedly shrugged off the word coincidences that I saw but they kept happening so i started writing them down. I had no interest in figuring out bible codes. I then had an interest in the coincidences I saw when reading the sentences of nonsense.

I noticed familiar words of the Bible were being used in sentences that didnt make any sense. I started writing them down to try to get an overview. It took me a while before I figured out what the words were doing.

They are speaking in layers of parallel layers.

Repeating the same layer in a different way makes a new layer. Nonsense found in the bible is the mixing of different parallel layers according to the words specific positions in the layers.

So a word from one layer can be put into another different parallel layer according to its original position. That makes the sentence still valid because the word has been moved out of its original layer and into another new layer but still retains the same position that it had in its original layer. The mixing of parallels confirms the words positioning in a layer. It also confirms what is being said is not just what one layer in particular says.

Even though a sentence sounds like nonsense it is still an accurate sentence because the words are all still in their specific positions.


Its what I've been trying to show and talk about.




Can you please read through more of my posts in this thread and see if you can get a better understanding of what im talking about. Like try listening to when i expanded on what Im talking about by taking what i was saying in a three or four position format and slotted it into a 12 position format. Three positions to each of the four directions. Like the bible says the wolf is with the lamb etc and I show how it is correct.

Maybe you could try not listening to the bible verses that I show. Maybe just observe them. Look at what they are doing.
Im trying to talk about what they are doing.


Maybe if you can see what i can see then you will start to hear what I can hear.


If you can put the time into reading all my posts in this thread I will listen to what you have to say about it and I will accept your response as an honest opinion.

I would like some help in assessing my logic. If you say that I'm wrong I will listen.

And if you have any questions I will answer.

Yet no one can make a rational argument for these layers or even support their existence properly.

Do you know what a "Bible Code" argument is? Do you know why they have all failed?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The theist basically tells the atheist, "you are giving up the most important part of your life -- the eternity of joy that comes after it ends," while the atheist tells the theist, "you have wasted the only life you will ever have fussing about a myth."

That's only specific religions.
If you want to approach it like Richard Dawkins then it must seem absurdly incompatible.
But Carl Sagan wasn't as dogmatic as Dawkins and allowed for other religions and didn't think atheists and theists must be as entirely incompatible as those trying to define religion as heavily revolving around Western Monotheism concepts.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Do you know what a "Bible Code" argument is? Do you know why they have all failed?

No I dont know. But it sounds like you are associating what im saying to some group of failed arguments. Im interested.
Can you tell me what a bible code argument is, why they all fail, and what does the argument have to do with what Im saying?

Here are some facts:

Fact one: The bible even states the words in the bible are not being heard correctly.
Fact two: The bible states the word of god is the voice of judgement.
Multiple verses could be shown to establish these facts.

Question:

So why cant the nonsense speech in the bible be putting their words into specific group positions of judgement like I am saying they are doing?

Yet no one can make a rational argument for these layers or even support their existence properly.

Im trying.

The moon, stars, and sun (words) mentioned in the bible is a layer of measurement.

Specific measurements of glory:

"There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 1 Corinthians" 15:41

Moon - Star - Sun


Just as the spear, sword, and bow (words) mentioned in the bible is a layer of measurement.

"Therefore set I in the lower places behind the wall, and on the higher places, I even set the people after their families with their swords, their spears, and their bows". Nehemiah 4:13

Spear - Sword - Bow


The words in one layer can be mixed according to their corresponding position in the other parallel layer.



Which sounds like sentences of nonsense but the measurement of glory still remains exactly the same:

The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear. Habakkuk 3:11

Moon - Star - Sun
Spear - Sword - Bow


Is this not a rational argument?

 

[Subduction Zone]

No I dont know. But it sounds like you are associating what im saying to some group of failed arguments. Im interested.
Can you tell me what a bible code argument is, why they all fail, and what does the argument have to do with what Im saying?

Here are some facts:

Fact one: The bible even states the words in the bible are not being heard correctly.
Fact two: The bible states the word of god is the voice of judgement.
Multiple verses could be shown to establish these facts.

Question:

So why cant the nonsense speech in the bible be putting their words into specific group positions of judgement like I am saying they are doing?

I can tell you why not. Because it is arbitrary and makes it even more nonsensical. Plus you have your burden of proof backwards. It is up to you to show that your method works. And you do not seem to even know how to start to show that it works. You made the unjustified assumption that it does leading to all sorts of lunacy.

By the way here are a couple more facts for you :

Fact one: The Bible is largely mythical. Any honest person that has studied it knows this.


Fact two: All of the evidence indicates that it is not the "word of God". It does not even say that outright.

Im trying.

The moon, stars, and sun (words) mentioned in the bible is a layer of measurement.

Specific measurements of glory:

"There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 1 Corinthians" 15:41

Moon - Star - Sun


Just as the spear, sword, and bow (words) mentioned in the bible is a layer of measurement.

"Therefore set I in the lower places behind the wall, and on the higher places, I even set the people after their families with their swords, their spears, and their bows". Nehemiah 4:13

Spear - Sword - Bow


The words in one layer can be mixed according to their corresponding position in the other parallel layer.



Which sounds like sentences of nonsense but the measurement of glory still remains exactly the same:

The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear. Habakkuk 3:11

Moon - Star - Sun
Spear - Sword - Bow


Is this not a rational argument?

No, it is not a rational argument. It is incredibly irrational. And the Moon and the stars are not units of measurement. They are physical objects that the writers had no clue about.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

I can tell you why not. Because it is arbitrary and makes it even more nonsensical. Plus you have your burden of proof backwards. It is up to you to show that your method works. And you do not seem to even know how to start to show that it works. You made the unjustified assumption that it does leading to all sorts of lunacy.

It sounds like your bible code argument is - because I had a thought that you dont understand therefore I am wrong.

By the way here are a couple more facts for you :

Fact one: The Bible is largely mythical. Any honest person that has studied it knows this.

I agree the bible is mythical. It is a fairy tale.
But that doesnt mean the stories are false.

Fact two: All of the evidence indicates that it is not the "word of God". It does not even say that outright.

There are 54 exact mentions of "word of god" in the bible.

BibleGateway - Keyword Search: "word of god"

www.biblegateway.com

And 274 exact mentions of "word of the lord" in the bible.

BibleGateway - Keyword Search: "word of the lord"

www.biblegateway.com

There are also many other variations in the bible.

No, it is not a rational argument. It is incredibly irrational. And the Moon and the stars are not units of measurement. They are physical objects that the writers had no clue about.

You are thinking in physical objects. I am not.

Try understanding this logic.

Here we have a layer of three different things shown in order.


A1 - A2 - A3


Now if we added another different sounding layer that also represents the same three things (a parallel layer).

B1 - B2 - B3



Then the sequence of A1 - A2 - B3 would still be considered correct. That is logical.


I showed you a verse saying "A1 and A3 is equal to B1 and B3" but you didnt understand it. Because if you know the positioning of words then you would clearly hear what the words are saying:

Observe this verse again:

The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear. Habbakuk 3:11


Now look very carefully at this and what has been highlighted:

. 1 - 2 - 3
A - Moon - Star - Sun
B - Spear - Sword - Bow

As you can see A1 and A3 is the same as B1 and B3. The verse is correct.

If you now listen to the verse knowing the positioning of the words then you will be able to hear the speech. Its not nonsense. The verse means exactly what it says.

Jumbled sequences is a form of confirmation as it verifies the existence of the layers and order positioning within the layers. It also confirms all layers are one layer.

So the sun and moon stand still because of the bow and spear.

Do you understand?

 

[Subduction Zone]

It sounds like your bible code argument is - because I had a thought that you dont understand therefore I am wrong.




I agree the bible is mythical. It is a fairy tale.
But that doesnt mean the stories are false.



There are 54 exact mentions of "word of god" in the bible.

BibleGateway - Keyword Search: "word of god"

www.biblegateway.com

And 274 exact mentions of "word of the lord" in the bible.

BibleGateway - Keyword Search: "word of the lord"

www.biblegateway.com

There are also many other variations in the bible.





You are thinking in physical objects. I am not.

Try understanding this logic.

Here we have a layer of three different things shown in order.


A1 - A2 - A3


Now if we added another different sounding layer that also represents the same three things (a parallel layer).

B1 - B2 - B3



Then the sequence of A1 - A2 - B3 would still be considered correct. That is logical.


I showed you a verse saying "A1 and A3 is equal to B1 and B3" but you didnt understand it. Because if you know the positioning of words then you would clearly hear what the words are saying:

Observe this verse again:

The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear. Habbakuk 3:11


Now look very carefully at this and what has been highlighted:

. 1 - 2 - 3
A - Moon - Star - Sun
B - Spear - Sword - Bow

As you can see A1 and A3 is the same as B1 and B3. The verse is correct.

If you now listen to the verse knowing the positioning of the words then you will be able to hear the speech. Its not nonsense. The verse means exactly what it says.

Jumbled sequences is a form of confirmation as it verifies the existence of the layers and order positioning within the layers. It also confirms all layers are one layer.

So the sun and moon stand still because of the bow and spear.

Do you understand?

Nope, wrong again. Your code is so arbitrary that one could get it to say anything It is worthless.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Why do you think that I am getting the verse to say something it is not, and that it could be made to say anything?

Because I am not getting the verse to say anything other than what it clearly says. And I show how it means exactly what it says.


So is this bible code box that you have put me in being used as your reasoning to dismiss what Im saying? I am wrong as they were wrong.

Do you even listen or do you just jump to conclusions based on your belief?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Why do you think that I am getting the verse to say something it is not, and that it could be made to say anything?

Because I am not getting the verse to say anything other than what it clearly says. And I show how it means exactly what it says.


So is this bible code box that you have put me in being used as your reasoning to dismiss what Im saying? I am wrong as they were wrong.

Do you even listen or do you just jump to conclusions based on your belief?

Your code does not prove anything. It is just silly. You can't even say what it is in a rational manner.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Your code does not prove anything. It is just silly. You can't even say what it is in a rational manner.

I think a rational manner draws a line between ignorance and arrogance. It is the line between not knowing, and thinking that you know for sure.
Because facts can change if it becomes rational to do so.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I think a rational manner draws a line between ignorance and arrogance. It is the line between not knowing, and thinking that you know for sure.
Because facts can change if it becomes rational to do so.

Yeah, but rational is not just objective. So for any claim of being rational, you have to account for what is going on and if it is dependent on cognition or not. And even that can be too simple.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Your code does not prove anything. It is just silly. You can't even say what it is in a rational manner.

So I get responses as apparent assumptions (unclarified opinions of why Im wrong) and insults.

But there was one athiest that came to this forum for a short time who seemed to be able to begin to comprehend what Im saying.


For a bit of background on him. He says:

Critical thinking and skepticism led me to Atheism. For a little background. I have an associates in religion, a bachelor's in theology, an associates in philosophy, and am a law student. I've always been fascinated by world religions and have continued my education on the subject in spite of my other studies. In answer to your question, " What am I willing to be convinced of"? I'm willing to be convinced of the truth. I want my model of reality to match actual reality as closely as possible. I find discourse to be one of the many tools we can use to root out fallacious beliefs that would misalign our model of reality with actual reality. I'm very open to changing my mind if the evidence warrants it. I like science am not static.

He also said that he had not heard anything new in a very long time.

As someone with a bachelors in theology, an associates in religion, an associates in philosophy, and a current student of law I've studied religions for over half my life and I have not heard anything new for a very long time. Maybe you'll be the first person in 600 years to come up with a brand new argument for the existence of god? Wouldn't that be cool. You may even win a debate with it someday.

He showed intelligence and talked straight to theists in his thread. I wanted to try to engage a conversation with him and asked if what I say made any sense to him.

His response was he wasnt sure. He said they were unique ideas that he hadnt heard before.

I’m not sure these are really unique ideas I haven’t heard before.

So I tried to tell him more.


A response had what i thought was a fair assessment.

I can’t tell if you’re as genius, crazy, or a crazy genius. Let’s start with the wheel. How are the different categories assigned and how are the animals assigned within them? Is there something you have online that could give me a visual representation so I can understand better? Thanks in advance for your patience.

Another response from him was:

I’m going to draw it and see. I’m definitely curious. Thanks for your patience with me.

I kept trying to tell him more but I didnt get to continue the conversation. His final reply to me was:

Hey! I haven’t forgot about you. My fiancé kicked me off the forum lol. Said I was spending to much time goofing around on the internet and not studying. So I took a break for a minute. I’m at my office and she’s home asleep so I’m sneaking back on here real quick. Hope you’ve been doing well. Look forward to speaking with you soon.

And then he was gone from the forum.

I hoped that I had found someone that I could talk to. Someone who could help me assess my point of view. Thats all I want from here.
I have wanted to leave this forum since the day I signed up.


So tell me what is the difference between him and the other athiests that I have tried to talk to in this thread including yourself?

Is it a question of intelligence. Was he more or less intelligent than you are?

Or is it a question of openmindedness?

 

[Subduction Zone]

So I get responses as apparent assumptions (unclarified opinions of why Im wrong) and insults.

But there was one athiest that came to this forum for a short time who seemed to be able to begin to comprehend what Im saying.


For a bit of background on him. He says:


He also said that he had not heard anything new in a very long time.




He showed intelligence and talked straight to theists in his thread. I wanted to try to engage a conversation with him and asked if what I say made any sense to him.

His response was he wasnt sure. He said they were unique ideas that he hadnt heard before.



So I tried to tell him more.


A response had what i thought was a fair assessment.



Another response from him was:



I kept trying to tell him more but I didnt get to continue the conversation. His final reply to me was:


And then he was gone from the forum.

I hoped that I had found someone that I could talk to. Someone who could help me assess my point of view. Thats all I want from here.
I have wanted to leave this forum since the day I signed up.


So tell me what is the difference between him and the other athiests that I have tried to talk to in this thread including yourself?

Is it a question of intelligence. Was he more or less intelligent than you are?

Or is it a question of openmindedness?

Open mindedness does not being so open that your brain falls out onto the floor and due to one's open mindedness he no longer knows how to clear it up.

You should have listened to benji.

 

[F1fan]

Can you please read through more of my posts in this thread and see if you can get a better understanding of what im talking about. Like try listening to when i expanded on what Im talking about by taking what i was saying in a three or four position format and slotted it into a 12 position format. Three positions to each of the four directions. Like the bible says the wolf is with the lamb etc and I show how it is correct.

Maybe you could try not listening to the bible verses that I show. Maybe just observe them. Look at what they are doing.
Im trying to talk about what they are doing.


Maybe if you can see what i can see then you will start to hear what I can hear.

You use many, many words, but not in a way that is comprehsible. Whatever it is you think you understand you are failing to convey it. I see you list a series of words. But I don't see any reason why it's important.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

You use many, many words, but not in a way that is comprehsible. Whatever it is you think you understand you are failing to convey it. I see you list a series of words. But I don't see any reason why it's important.

Each word needs to be learned to then be able to hear the speech in the bible. The speech is positioning words, so when the positioning becomes known then the speech appears clear in what it is saying and can be further verified.

Its like what this verse says that the speech is not understood because the words are not heard:

"Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word". John 8:43

I dont know all words in the bible. Like in post 458 I learned a new word when a member mentioned a verse to consider the lilies of the field. I then showed how I learned it. Using a search tool I was able to listen to each verse containing the word lily/lillies. I then recognised its position because I know the positioning of the other words in lily/lilies sentences. So I was able to place the lily in its position according to what i have been saying. Each word has a position along with other certain words.


Before you would be able to use a search tool to assess words with me I think you will need to understand the concept of what Im saying. So you would know what you are looking for.

I will try to explain this without too many words.



Question:

Are you able to comprehend these three words are in an order representing three different levels of height:

Valley - Hill - Mountain

And that these three words are also in order representing three different levels of height:

Sea - River - Stream

I think that first step should be simple enough to understand.


Now Im going to put them together.

Valley - Hill - Mountain
Sea - River - Stream

So we have two different layers that both represent three levels of height.

Are you comprehending this?