Atheists vs. Theists -- Why Debate is Impossible

[Evangelicalhumanist]

But, is there any good reason to believe that is true claim in every case?

"Every" case? I don't know. But in most, I'd say yes. Nothing about the world's great religions can be demonstrated to be based on observations that can be repeatedly demonstrated to those beliefs in a causal way. The enormous edifice of Catholic dogma, for example, as exemplified in the Catechism, seems to me to be more casuistry than causal. (Casuistry: a process of reasoning that seeks to resolve moral problems by extracting or extending theoretical rules from a particular case.)

 

[1213]

"Every" case? I don't know. But in most, I'd say yes. Nothing about the world's great religions can be demonstrated to be based on observations that can be repeatedly demonstrated...

Do you mean it visit of Jesus should be possible to repeat? I think history is full of events that can't be repeated.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

I didn't mean to say that you can't find patterns or connections. You will see similar words used because of poetic significance. Metaphors are wonderful, but I think reading them as part of a hidden coded message is focusing too much on the significance of the word, and far less upon what they are trying to point you towards.

You mentioned "consider the Lilies" so I showed you the position of the Lily which is in direct symbol alignment of what Ive been talking about through this thread.

So that is clearly what the Lily is pointing towards.

As I have showed you the Lily is in the Valley, and as I have showed you the association of the Lily with the Sea, Cattle, and Brass.

They are symbols which are part of one group.

Group1 - Group2 - Group3
Brass - Silver - Gold
Valley - Hill - Mountain
Sea - River - Stream
Cattle - Goat - Sheep

So the position of the Lily is very clear.

The hill is at a higher level than the valley, as the river is at a higher level than the sea.
(Consider the sound of the mountain stream).


The valley is covered with corn:
"The pastures are clothed with flocks; the valleys also are covered over with corn; they shout for joy, they also sing". Psalm

As the corn is part of the sea:
"And Joseph gathered corn as the sand of the sea, very much, until he left numbering; for it was without number". Genesis.

Group1 - Group2 - Group3
Bread - Oil - Wine
Corn - Olive - Grape.
Valley - Hill - Mountain
Sea - River - Stream


Did you know the word corn is a translation which means grain?

So considering the wheat is set about with lilies as it says:

"Thy navel is like a round goblet, which wanteth not liquor: thy belly is like an heap of wheat set about with lilies". Solomon.

The position/meaning of the Lily should now be even clearer to you. Ive talked about corn before.

Are you not able to understand the scientific significance of this?

 

[WonderingWorrier]

All of this is a very sophisticated and creative mental exercise. What I am talking about is seen, felt, heard, touched, and tasted without any of that whatsoever. In fact, all of that distracts from seeing the entirely obvious; seeing the Infinite in a blade of grass, in the most simple unassuming, thing. It does not take an electron microscope, or sophisticated code-breaking tools to see what is in every molecule of air, and in every fiber of our own being and the entire universe.

It takes Silence.

It takes getting out of our heads in trying to reason and pick apart the world to find the Divine. It takes letting go of all of our thoughts about everything, letting them drop to the ground and decay into dust. And then, we may well awaken to see the Infinite in simplicity, in all that is.

This is why Jesus says, "Except you become as a little child you shall in no way see the kingdom of God". Those are the eyes we need. Not more mental tools.

Here is a line from a fantastic poem you should read, just as poetry alone. Renascence by Edna St. Vincent Millay | Poetry Foundation

Thou canst not move across the grass
But my quick eyes will see Thee pass,
Nor speak, however silently,
But my hushed voice will answer Thee.
I know the path that tells Thy way
Through the cool eve of every day;
God, I can push the grass apart
And lay my finger on Thy heart!
This Realization, this Awakening experience she so beautifully captures in her poetry is precisely what it means to have 'ears to hear and eyes to see". It's not about digging in deeper with the reasoning mind to find hidden patterns to tease apart. It means letting go of all of that, and dying to it. Then, and only then, the full Light shines in.

Are you twisting wording?

This sounds familiar:

All of this is a very sophisticated and creative mental exercise.

It takes Silence.

It takes letting go of all of our thoughts about everything

This Realization, this Awakening experience

Then, and only then, the full Light shines in

You are talking poetic while I am talking scientific.

Do you know how to clear your mind and remove thoughts?

Its easy. Close your eyes and look outwards (you can feel your eyes change position in your head).
Look deep within yourself.


Its like looking out a window on a dark night because you sense something is out there. Your thoughts stop as you are looking out into the darkness. What is out there?

It is the state of high alertness that removes thought.

You soon start seeing what science calls phosphenes (light) in the darkness.

Look through the phosphenes until your eyelids flick open in a place that is not reality. It physically feels like awakening.

So the phosphenes are like a rainbow door or rainbow bridge between worlds.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

You have to first empty your cup, before it can be filled.

A logical cup can be both filled and emptied at the same time.

Like consider a cup that is both half full and half empty.


Are you considering a cup that is half full of air, and a cup that is half empty of air?


Consider two half empties: Half empty of liquid, and half empty of air.

Consider two half fulls: Half full of liquid, and half full of air.


All these opposite seeming views can point to the same cup.

 

[Windwalker]

A logical cup can be both filled and emptied at the same time.

Like consider a cup that is both half full and half empty.


Are you considering a cup that is half full of air, and a cup that is half empty of air?


Consider two half empties: Half empty of liquid, and half empty of air.

Consider two half fulls: Half full of liquid, and half full of air.


All these opposite seeming views can point to the same cup.

Yes, the point of all of this is to accept the paradox of reality, which seemingly opposing views arise from reliance upon dualistic thought, which is the result of words and language. Therefore, intellectualizing your way to see the Divine, will only ever result in seeing reality in dualistic terms, as either this or that, which is not Reality itself. "The Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao".

This system of trying to find the Divine through analysing codes is using the intellectual, dualistic mind to "figure out God". How can that work, if it is through Silence, through just accepting Life without judgement, without calling it this or that, half full or half empty? You're naming the Tao.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

"The Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao".

You're naming the Tao.

I've been saying the words are not heard on their own but the blending together can be heard.


From #14 of the Tao Te Ching:

"it cannot be made the subject of description; and hence we blend them together and
obtain The One".


"When we can lay hold of the Tao of old to direct the things
of the present day, and are able to know it as it was of old in the
beginning, this is called (unwinding) the clue of Tao".



And from #41 of the Tao Te Ching:

"Scholars of the highest class, when they hear about the Tao, earnestly carry it into practice.

Scholars of the middle class, when they have heard about it, seem now to keep it and now to lose it.

Scholars of the lowest class, when they have heard about it, laugh greatly at it.

If it were not (thus) laughed at, it would not be fit to be the Tao.




Ive been trying to talk about the sense in the nonsense, the wisdom in the foolishness.


There seems to be a point to it.


To both conceal and to reveal.

"For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe". Corinthians

"Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue". Corinthians

 

[Windwalker]

I've been saying the words are not heard on their own but the blending together can be heard.

I'm trying to understand what you are trying to convey. What I hear in this and your previous posts gives the impression you are seeing that there is a literal hidden meaning concealed from people who do not know how to properly decode the texts.

It makes me think of something along the lines of some mystery adventure with an explorer like Indiana Jones who finds that if you line up this stone, with that stone when the sun comes through the crack in the wall at a certain day of the year it will illuminate the hidden spot which you need to press in the wall to open the chamber where the treasure is laying.

If so, I feel that is missing the point of all of these texts, reading far too much into them and approaching them as an intellectual mystery-puzzle.

From #14 of the Tao Te Ching:

"it cannot be made the subject of description; and hence we blend them together and
obtain The One".

Which translation are you using? I'm getting a 3rd translation delivered tomorrow by Derek Lin, which I understand is quite good. But I'll quote this verse from Stephen Mitchell's translation just for a little more perspective on this.

"Look and it can't be seen.
Listen, and it can't be heard.
reach, and it can't be grasped.

Above, it isn't bright.
Below, it isn't dark.
Seamless, unnamable,
it returns to the realm of nothing.
Form that includes all forms,
image without an image,
subtle, beyond all conception."

Approach it and there is no beginning;
follow it and there is no end.
You can't know it, but you can be it,
at ease in your own life.​

And for contrast, by Man-Ho-Kwak, et. al,

When you gaze at something but see nothing;
When you listen for a sound but cannot hear it;
When you try to grasp it and find in has no substance,

Then these three things
That go beyond your mind
Are moulded together in the One.
​

This "blend together" in the One, or to "obtain the One", is not the taking of two verses of scripture and overlaying them on top of each other to see a 3rd hidden text. That very much misses the point of these passages in the Tao De Ching and Taoist philosophy altogether.

What all these are pointing to, as metaphors, is that by trying to grasp or comprehend the nature of ultimate Truth, or Reality, the Tao, or God, with the mind is impossible. We cannot reason it. We cannot decode it with reasoning our way through a maze. We cannot piece the parts together as in a puzzle to make it into a single image.

All of this, all of that, is an exercise of the mind! It is trying to reason God. It is trying to name what cannot be named. The mind has to name something in order to reason it. Therefore all of these efforts are futile.

By going beyond the mind, as it says so perfectly and so simply without complex formals and mystery codes, "You can't know it, but you can be it." That is the only mystery, how to overcome the egoic reasoning, seeking mind, and to simply be it.

And that requires only one direction. Relax. Let it all go. Quit trying to grasp with the mind. The true paradox is this: seek to not seek; make an effort to make no effort. Figure out how to do that, and then you've found the key to that door. No more and no less is required.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Which translation are you using? I'm getting a 3rd translation delivered tomorrow by Derek Lin, which I understand is quite good. But I'll quote this verse from Stephen Mitchell's translation just for a little more perspective on this.

"Look and it can't be seen.
Listen, and it can't be heard.
reach, and it can't be grasped.

Above, it isn't bright.
Below, it isn't dark.
Seamless, unnamable,
it returns to the realm of nothing.
Form that includes all forms,
image without an image,
subtle, beyond all conception."

Approach it and there is no beginning;
follow it and there is no end.
You can't know it, but you can be it,
at ease in your own life.

And for contrast, by Man-Ho-Kwak, et. al,

When you gaze at something but see nothing;
When you listen for a sound but cannot hear it;
When you try to grasp it and find in has no substance,

Then these three things
That go beyond your mind
Are moulded together in the One.

This "blend together" in the One, or to "obtain the One", is not the taking of two verses of scripture and overlaying them on top of each other to see a 3rd hidden text. That very much misses the point of these passages in the Tao De Ching and Taoist philosophy altogether.

So the Stephen Mitchels translation includes "you can be it". And the other translation you provided for contrast is more in line with what I quoted from the J.Legge translation.

Here are some more translations for more perspective:

Gia Fu Feng:

These three are indefinable;
Therefore they are joined in one.


J.H. McDonald:

These three cannot be further described,
so we treat them as The One.

John Wu-
These three attributes are unfathomable.
There fore they fuse into one.

D.C Lau-
These three cannot be fathomed.
and so they are confused and looked upon as one.

Chan-
These three cannot be further inquired into.
And hence merge into one.

Henricks
These three cannot be examined to the limit.
Thus they merge together as one

Waley
These three because they cant be further scruitinzed.
Blend into one.

Lin
These three elude all our enquiries.
And hence blend and become one.

Cleary
These three cannot be completely fathomed
So they merge into one.

Feng and English
These three are indefinable
Therefore they are joined as one.



They seem to be basically saying the same thing.

But none of them say "You can be it".

I dont know of any other translations that say something more similar to "you cant know it, but you can be it"?

Sounds like the saying "ignorance is bliss". Is that the type of letting go that you are talking about?
Dont worry about the details, just enjoy the euphoria of feeling part of the incomprehensible.
That sounds like faith.


If you are interested in other translations here are a couple of links that show multiple translations of each verse of the Tao Te Ching:

Tao_Teh_Ching_Translations.pdf (bu.edu)

Tao Te Ching – translation comparison (tasuki.org)

So you can compare a few translations as you read it.

 

[Windwalker]

They seem to be basically saying the same thing.

But none of them say "You can be it".

Well, actually yes they do say that same thing, if understood at the deepest level. Mitchel's translation is considered to be more poetic, and less literal, but it is still highly respected and one of the more recommended translations. He does add the meaning that he feels there in it, as do most translations. But not without justification.

The one I am getting later today is considered a more literal translation, but the issue with this is that if you as a reader, are a stranger to Taoist philosophy, would be unlikely to get the meaning of the texts, as you have no context as a Western person, whose life philosophies are very foreign to Taoist concepts. All translations reflect the translators themselves in them.

So pitting translations against each other is not the most fruitful exercise. I only added his, and the other ones I have as points of comparison for better discerning the meanings of those passages. I consider Mitchell's take to be entirely valid to say "You can be it."

Why? Here's why. Big picture. Taoist philosophy, is very akin to what you find in the nondual schools of Advaita Vedanta in Hinduism, as well as the nondual schools of Buddhism exemplified by Nagarjuna, as well as in the nondual schools of Christian mysticism, exemplified by Meister Eckhart. What you find in all of them is that the highest realization of human consciousness is to be "One" with the Divine, or Emptiness, or God, or whatever word you wish to use.

If you are in fact One with God, that as the translations you used say, "we treat them as The One", or are merged in the One", then you yourself, are That. As the the Hindus say, Tat Tvam Asi, or "Thou art That". That is exactly what Mitchells means by saying, "You can be it". Your identity shifts away from the separate egoic self, or that which is named, as the naming creates the "ten thousand things", or the world of form, and dissolves into or merges into the Tao, or God. At which point, "You are That". There is no more separate self.

This is a fundamental understanding of Eastern thought, in Taoism, Hinduism, and Buddhism. But we in the West see reality fundamentally in dualistic terms. "This and not that".

What I hear you saying, is that 1+1=2. Or, this word, plus that word put together, make a new separate 3rd word. I note that you did not dispute my analogy to the mystery adventure analogy of an Indian Jones like story of 2 stones together illuminate a 3rd spot on the wall which leads to a hidden treasure, as analogous to your treatment of scripture. I will assume that is was a valid understanding of it then, since you did not dispute it.

In Taoism, Wuji, gives rises to Taiyi, from which Taiji is created, the world of opposites in Stillness. But when set into motion this then becomes the world of Yin and Yang. This is the form. The more out of balance we are, the further away from the Source we become. The more suffering we endure. The more conflict arises. The goal is to get back to Taiji, that perfect balance of opposites, and then dissolve into Wujii, or the Formless Source.

It is there, that "You can be it". There is nothing but the One. And that is consistent with your translations as well.

Sounds like the saying "ignorance is bliss". Is that the type of letting go that you are talking about?
Dont worry about the details, just enjoy the euphoria of feeling part of the incomprehensible.
That sounds like faith.

No. Not that. This goes beyond not worrying and beyond faith. You could use the term "Divine ignorance", as that is not the human kind of 'ignorance is bliss'. But even that can be confusing to the thinking mind. It's seeing without judgment, without dividing the world into this or that statements. It seeing through world of form of "the ten thousand things", from the Source. It is an ignorance of duality itself and the dualistic mind. It sees form as One.

And it also goes beyond feelings of euphoria. To quote a favorite passage of mine from the Buddhist Dhammapada,

Wanting nothing
With all your heart
Stop the stream.

When the world dissolves
Everything become clear.

Go beyond
This way or that way,
to the farther shore
Where the world dissolves
And everything becomes clear.

Beyond this shore
And the farther shore,
Beyond the beyond,
Where there is no beginning,
No end.

Without fear, go.
​

This is not at all "ignorance is bliss", nor religious faith, as all those still reside in the world of thought. It is a state and condition of conscious awareness and being itself.

But circling back to your original approach to using scripture. Assuming you do not reject my analogy of the Indiana Jones like comparison, what your approach is doing essentially a type of divinization, which is at the bottom line, simply a meditation device in order for the active, discursive mind to begin to "let go" and allow the subconscious mind to reveal its own insights that are normally buried under the active thinking mind.

While this may be useful as a meditation device, or as a tool to learn to sense into your intuitive self, or that "faith" that resides in us, it has nothing to do with what you quoted about the "three becoming One". That is referring to dissolving distinctions. All you are doing, is adding another laying of distinction, a hidden distinction, or a hidden meaning. This is not what the Tao De Ching is pointing to, but it is much more akin to the I Ching, with its systems of divination.

While you may be able to create a meditation system like this for yourself, to "defocus" your mind and find new truths, that is a beginning stage of meditation. Letting go and dissolving into the One from the many, requires letting go of everything, and then finding yourself in everything and everything in you. "I and the Father are One", carries a whole new meaning, when understood as nonduality.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

I note that you did not dispute my analogy to the mystery adventure analogy of an Indian Jones like story of 2 stones together illuminate a 3rd spot on the wall which leads to a hidden treasure, as analogous to your treatment of scripture. I will assume that is was a valid understanding of it then, since you did not dispute it.

Yeah it is a valid understanding of it. I guess the harder the treasure is to find the more valuable it is.

Many people see contradictions in the Bible. Some just accept the good in the Bible but disregard the evil in the Bible.

They are seemingly opposites.

Like the bible talks about eating bread, and drinking wine.
But the bible also talks about eating the flesh of men, and drinking their blood.

The good sayings and the evil sayings are both saying the same things.

Hence the bread is my flesh, and the wine is my blood:

Group1 - Group2 - Group3
Brass - Silver - Gold
Bread - Oil - Wine
Flesh - Bone - Blood



I will try to show you some treasure:

The Bible says that the iron, brass, silver, and gold goes into the treasury of the Lord.

"But all the silver, and gold, and vessels of brass and iron, are consecrated unto the Lord: they shall come into the treasury of the Lord". Joshua



Do you remember me talking about iron and how iron is Earthly? That iron things are Earthly things.


Listen to this:

And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron. Deuteronomy.


So what people think is the treasure of the lord (brass, silver, gold) is actually just iron.

Their understanding of the words in the bible is wrong.



Hence their gold and silver that they have been collecting for the treasury of the Lord is just rusty iron.


As the prophecy says:

"Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days". James.


Because their understanding of gold and silver in the Bible is earthly, rather than heavenly.

Which leads to corruption, and stealing:


"Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal".

Matthew 6:19-20



The true treasury of the Lord is the Earth and the Heavens:

Consider the rust, and also consider the flesh:

Iron - Brass - Silver - Gold
Earth - Flesh - Bone - Blood

Flesh is the lowest level. The place called Hell.

That is why the prophecy of the rusty gold and silver says flesh as it were fire:

"Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days". James.

The Flesh is as the fire of Hell.


So you can keep your brass, silver, and gold in your purses.

"Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses". Matthew

Because Earthly treasure is just iron.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

What I hear you saying, is that 1+1=2. Or, this word, plus that word put together, make a new separate 3rd word.

Can you please explain what you mean by a new separate word?
Im wondering if maybe you still cant hear what im saying.



I am saying 3 + 3 = 3

And it doesnt matter how many more three's that i add, it still only equals three.

And the logic of that is because each single unit in a group of three has a parallel unit within the other groups of threes.


The units are woven together in the speech. Words of crazy nonsense in the bible are the positioning of parallel units.


Can be seemingly contradicting but saying the same thing. Like in good and evil.

"Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?" Lamentations



Like I think the way of the sword is also the way of peace (in a way that is not contradicting).

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword". Matthew.


As words of Oil is the same as Sword:

The words of his mouth were smoother than butter, but war was in his heart: his words were softer than oil, yet were they drawn swords. Psalm


Because the Oil unit is a parallel to the Sword unit:

(Unit 1 - Unit 2 - Unit 3)

Brass - Silver - Gold
Corn - Olive - Grape
Bread - Oil - Wine
Flesh - Bone - Blood
Spear - Sword - Bow


So considering these units represent the high and the low, and the middle.

Is peace the middle way?.

Can you see that my Sword is also my Olive branch?

Can you hear what I am saying?

 

[Windwalker]

Can you please explain what you mean by a new separate word?
Im wondering if maybe you still cant hear what im saying.

I am saying 3 + 3 = 3

I hear you saying that the meaning of this word over here, and the meaning of that word over there, when taken together mean some other hidden meaning found between the other meanings. It's that middle meaning, that gives you the secret meaning.

Basically, put another way, it sounds like thesis and its opposite antithesis, reconciled brings about synthesis. This is the way dialectical logic functions. Thesis and antithesis, or polar opposites, bring a new higher level understanding above them in a sythethisis, which then becomes the new thesis, and a new antithesis is created, and a new synthesis is created, and a new thesis is created, and so forth. This is how progress is made in rational systems.

My point of contention is this. It's still a rational system. True paradox, the Divine, is only realized beyond this dualistic system of thesis and antithesis and synthesis in a 'transrational' move. What you are doing is still using rationality as the gateway to Truth itself.

At best, it can take you to the end of itself if followed through to its "deficient phase". But it's in letting go of it, or moving beyond it, that true insight begins to unfold as the next Integral, or paradoxical mode of consciousness comes online.

And it doesnt matter how many more three's that i add, it still only equals three.

I would put it this way, 3 + 3 = An illusion of reality created by the mind dividing it up into units the mind can look to in order to use itself as the door to ultimate Truth. Trying to find a hidden number, is still using the mind in the same way. It's just a different system of the rational mind is all.

And the logic of that is because each single unit in a group of three has a parallel unit within the other groups of threes.

Can the mind reason God? Can the human mind measure the Divine?

The units are woven together in the speech. Words of crazy nonsense in the bible are the positioning of parallel units.

For me, it's vastly more simple. Poetry. Poetry has a way of taking you beyond the literal meanings of words, into figurative speech, which has the effect of letting go of the reasoning mind and listening with the heart, with the wings of spirit on the currents of the imagination. It's flying above the rational where the spirit connects with the sky, and finds its liberty. Not in building a tower of logic to reach God with, like the fabled Tower of Babel.

 

[Sandra Jayne]

You know, I recall Stephen Jay Gould's argument that religion and science are "non-overlapping magisteria (NOMA)," and therefore there is no profitable way to to argue one against the other. And I think this is true: science works from observation, hypothesis, experiment, test, review and revise. Nothing in science can be considered "dogmatically true," because any evidence that may possibly come along can refute it -- and this is expected.

Religion, on the other hand, depends upon observation and hypothesis -- but the similarity ends there. Stories are invented to explain the observations. The wind blows, I can't see a fan, therefore, there must be a god that causes the wind to blow. It is written, therefore it is true and infallible. That kind of thing.

I think something similar can happen in debates between theists and atheists, but it is a bit different -- but immensely important.

Please note: I am not talking about ordinary folks, religious or not, who don't care to debate, don't fuss about their peculiar dogma. Nothing I say here will change how they get on with their lives, and that's good. Instead, I'm talking about those theologians and philosophers, skeptics and purists who really focus on these issues -- as if they were somehow important.

And to those (among whom I include myself), I say this:

The theist basically tells the atheist, "you are giving up the most important part of your life -- the eternity of joy that comes after it ends," while the atheist tells the theist, "you have wasted the only life you will ever have fussing about a myth."

Have known plenty of atheists who have or are living miserable lives and known plenty of theists who are living happy lives.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

I hear you saying that the meaning of this word over here, and the meaning of that word over there, when taken together mean some other hidden meaning found between the other meanings. It's that middle meaning, that gives you the secret meaning.

I am saying the meaning is very plain to see but some people hear it as nonsense.


Its like knowing that these three words/symbols

Spear - Sword - Bow.

"Therefore set I in the lower places behind the wall, and on the higher places, I even set the people after their families with their swords, their spears, and their bows". Nehemiah


Together with these three words/symbols

Moon - Star - Sun

And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;" Luke


Is the reason for the sort of nonsense written in the bible that people could twist into all sorts of imaginative meanings.

Like this:


."The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear". Habbakuk.


But a logical mind should be able to see the blending of the threes in that verse.

Moon - Star - Sun
Spear - Sword - Bow

Its not nonsense. The verse means exactly what it says. But people cant hear it.

If they knew about the two different threes, then they would be able to hear the blending in the speech that makes both threes into a single three.

The Bible is full of speech like this (And its not just in the Bible).

Can the mind reason God? Can the human mind measure the Divine?

Yes. We can measure the speech of God.

"Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance?" Isaiah

Level1 - Level2 - Level3
Sea - River - Stream
Valley - Hill - Mountain

 

[SkepticThinker]

Have known plenty of atheists who have or are living miserable lives and known plenty of theists who are living happy lives.

And I know a ton of atheists who lead happy lives and a bunch of Christians who lead miserable lives.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

I can understand why atheists come to their conclusion based on their understanding of the evidence that they have available.

The problem of the impossibility with the atheist vs theist debate could be the arguing over misunderstood words.

The atheist doesnt comprehend how the words are true.
And the theist believes the words are true without knowing exactly why, which is called faith.


I am trying to discuss a possible solution to the confusion.

We can scientifically measure the words in the Bible.

I am saying all of these things are three things:
Thing1 - Thing2 - Thing3:

North - West - East
Brass - Silver - Gold
Sea - River - Stream
Valley - Hill - Mountain
Moon - Star - Sun
Cattle - Goat - Sheep
Lion - Leopard - Wolf
Bear - Deer - Horse
Pomegranate - Fig - Apple
Red - Purple - Blue
Spear - Sword - Bow
Corn - Olive - Grape
Bread - Oil - Wine


And starting with only internal observation of the Bible we can search for and follow any of these words.

Understanding the three things can logically turn the nonsense into sense.


Like how can the stars actually appear as figs as said in the prophecy of the Bible?
They can if they are both the same things, I can see they are both "Thing 2" in the list above.

Moon - Star - Sun
Pomegranate - Fig - Apple

Any other words/symbols mentioned in the Bible that I have not added into the above list can also be followed and measured like I did earlier when talking about the lilies, I clearly and logically showed the measurement of the lily and put it into its place of the three.

The words are true in a unique way.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

The atheist vs theist debate is not impossible if hearing the words in the correct way.

Like the Bible says that the earth and the heavens were made in six days. Which some might think is an impossible debate to have.

But are those people not aware that the Bible also says that the earth and the heavens were made in six metals?


The Bible says there are six different metals according to the law that was commanded to Moses.


"And Eleazar the priest said unto the men of war which went to the battle, This is the ordinance of the law which the Lord commanded Moses;

Only the gold, and the silver, the brass, the iron, the tin, and the lead." Numbers 31:21-22


Lead - Tin - Iron - Brass - Silver - Gold.


And the Bible says that the earth is iron, and the heaven above the earth is brass.

"And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron". Deuteronomy 28:23


So clearly the earth and the heavens were also made in six metals.

Lead through to Gold.

It is logical.

 

[F1fan]

The atheist vs theist debate is not impossible if hearing the words in the correct way.

Like the Bible says that the earth and the heavens were made in six days. Which some might think is an impossible debate to have.

It can be had with anyone well educated in the sciences.

But are those people not aware that the Bible also says that the earth and the heavens were made in six metals?


The Bible says there are six different metals according to the law that was commanded to Moses.


"And Eleazar the priest said unto the men of war which went to the battle, This is the ordinance of the law which the Lord commanded Moses;

Only the gold, and the silver, the brass, the iron, the tin, and the lead." Numbers 31:21-22


Lead - Tin - Iron - Brass - Silver - Gold.

No copper? No zinc? Brass is an alloy.

And the Bible says that the earth is iron, and the heaven above the earth is brass.

"And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron". Deuteronomy 28:23

Where is all this brass in heaven, exactly?

So clearly the earth and the heavens were also made in six metals.

Lead through to Gold.

Titanium? Aluminum?

If all you intend to do is show us how inaccurate the Bible is, you win.

It is logical.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

It can be had with anyone well educated in the sciences.

No copper? No zinc? Brass is an alloy.

Where is all this brass in heaven, exactly?

Titanium? Aluminum?

If all you intend to do is show us how inaccurate the Bible is, you win.

We can scientifically measure the words in the Bible.

But if you think that I'm talking about brass then you still cant comprehend what I'm saying. Brass represents something.

Scroll up the page to post number 471 where different metals are mentioned when I was trying to explain the treasury of the lord.
Please try to pay attention.

Do you understand what I'm trying to talk about?