Atheists vs. Theists -- Why Debate is Impossible

[F1fan]

No, no, no.
Stay on topic.

I say Muhammad, peace be with him, is a prophet of God.

As an ordinary, flawed mortal you could be mistaken. Gods aren't known to exist. This is just a religious claim, not fact, not evidenced truth. Believers like yourself can never show any gods exist, so it's not our problem that you believe in ideas that are preposterous.

You say that the Qur'an is an example of a culture "evolving over time"??

I don't say it, the evidence says it. Islam did evolve from Judaism and Christianity, and that is a fact given how many references the Quran mentions that tie it to these older religions.

You: religions evolve and amalgamate .. prophets don't exist

Evidence shows that religions evolve. And prophets aren't known to be real or credible.

Me: Yes, they do .. but prophets do exist.

It's what you believe, and you could be mistaken. You need to present evidence that prophets exist and make a convincing case, and then offset rebuttals with counter arguments. You never do this. You state your beief as if you are a God yourself and we should just accept what you claim.

You are an ordinarym flawed human, and the rules of debate apply to you too.

Naturally, you prefer the "no god exists" hypothesis, because you adopt a material philosophy.

All we humans have to work with in our reasoning is facts. These happen to be verifiable, thus a material experience in a material world. Why would you think otherwise?

And as I have stated many times to you, in logic the default of any claim is that it is not true, and the claimant has to present evidence that their claim IS true. So any claim you make we reject it until you can show us evidence that you are correct.

It cannot be proved one way or the other, and neither can independent historical evidence show any bias towards prophets existing or not.

Then you can't honesly claim they exist. You can believe they exist all you want, who cares? Believe in prophets and Santa Claus, we don't care. We care that you provide evidence when you claim something is true.

I am trapped in this life, as we all are.

Theists do this when they realize the are wrong. You try to make your condition apply to everyone, as if we are powerless. This is misleadijg on your part. The issue is you and otehr theists being trapped in a psychological framework that you both are victim of, and manintain. The fear of what you might be without religion is what keeps you stuck in your religious fantasy.

Other than that, I use my powers of reasoning, as you presumably do.

You do nothing of the sort. Your religious beliefs and claims are non-rational, and faith based. You offer no revidence or reasoning for why you decided your beliefs are true. You don't seem willing to consider the possibility you are mistaken. I suspect you are afraid of being a fraud, and I say given the number of times you created straw many arguments of others saying holy books and religions are frauds. Fraud is stuck in your mind for some reason, and it's not what we critics are saying.

..except that I cannot envisage a universe without an "author", whereas you obviously do.

Because you have decided you are powerless to think otehrwise, hence the trap you are in.

I shall not, God willing.
I can understand the argument of my Lord.
My Lord has no needs whatsoever, He warns mankind for our own benefit .. individually and collectively.
Remembrance of God is a necessity .. if not, then we will remember other, and are in danger of being led astray.

What is this?

This is just religious apologetics, and you know this is worthless to post. You're not even trying to convince us, so it this your way of reinforcing your own beliefs, as if you are feeling insecure and having doubts?

..but I have hope for the future .. patience and perseverance is not at all easy, however.

This is a statement of someone who feels powerless to manage their own life.

No it isn't ..any old Tom Dick or Harry can claim that there is none other than the material world.

Sorry but you are a material being living in a material universe. How does it help you to think otherwise? Does it allow you an excuse to believe in ideas that are inconsistent with truth, reality, fact, science, observation? Rejecting a material existence is absurd given you live it.

It does not represent the whole truth, just because it can be empirically proved.

Materialsm doesn't claim to be the whole truth. All it does is acknowledge what we humans can verify is real and true. Your religious beliefs are not consistent with what is true and real, and that is because you can't demonstrate any of it is true and real. That is a serious flaw in your framework of belief. Everything about religion is a product of material brains living in a material universe.

It is merely a convenience, to claim that it is irrational to believe in non-material concept.

No, it's just a fact. It is inconvenient for you believers because you can't explain how your beliefs are rational in any way. Just accept that you adopted dogma from others and you asked for no evidence before you were committed.

 

[F1fan]

Why do you quote people who claim they know dates of future events?

To illustrate that predictions by theists are worthless, and that includes your prediction, as vague as it was. As usual, you make a cliam and offer us no evidence that you are correct.

You know I don't believe any of that.

Good, neither do I.

Nobody knows the date of armageddon .. we can only judge how close it is by sound religious knowledge.

Religious people are notoriously unreliable, including you. We don't care that you think an armageddon will happen. Remember Hal Lyndsey's books? He wrote The Late Great Planet Earth back in the 70's based on his interpretation of the Bible. It scared the crap out of a lot of people. He made predictions about armageddon coming via nuclear war. Of course it was all garbage. His predictions didn't happen. Was he humble? No, he wrote a followup and in essence took credit for warning the world. This is the fraud religious people offer us in modern times. Religious belief does not work.

There are many signs..

And religious peolpe miss them all.

One big sign is the appearance of tall buildings in the Arabian peninsula.
It is connected to "oil", as is climate-change.
Catastrophe is upon us .. yet we still continue to consume more fossil fuels.
Mankind is weak .. they would rather kill each other, than change their ways.

The major reason the Arab states are building buildings, hotels, marinas, vacation destinations, Formula 1 races, bike races, golf resorts, etc. is because they are smart in realizing oil will decline as a commodity and they had to take the money they have an invest it in something they can sustain as income. They are Westernizing. They see your fellow Muslims (Taliban, Iranian hardliners, ISIS) and can see what a primitive, obsolete life will bring them, and they say "no way, that sucks". They aren't buying into your religious extremism any more than Christians, Jews, Hindus, Baha'i, Mormons, JW's, atheists, etc.

I suggest the weak minded are those who fall back on disaster theology, like your armageddon prediction. No hope. No courage. No solutions. Just bad news for a frightened believer.

Yes, you are .. you disbelieve, and cannot see the consequences of your actions.

False claim. If you are correct, offer evidence and a lucid explanation.

It is the financial system that is causing climate-change, and wealth inequality.

Greed and selfishness is not new. Religions through time have not solved it. Why is that?

..it all began when Europe began its "enlightenment", and Protestant banking emerged in Amsterdam .. the Dutch Indies company .. followed by transfer to London when the Dutch invaded Southern England [William of Orange] .. followed by the British Empire and industrialisation.
There .. swallow that.

This all existed well before that. Greed and power are things religioius leaders employed, including Muslims. You cite a few examples of commerce that helped businesses flourish. It also created immoral business practices, like exploitation of workers. Where was God? Where was religion? It didn't stop any of it. All through history religious people used whatever means to attain power and money, and where was your God? Absent as usual, allowing all sort of immorality, murder, torture. What brought civilizations out of this was the Enlightenment, and human rights, and equality, all developed through reason. Religion did not bring freedom for workers, religions stood by and let the people suffer. It was Enlightenment thinkers that advocated for human dignity and equality and rights.

 

[muhammad_isa]

As an ordinary, flawed mortal you could be mistaken..

..so could you..

Evidence shows that religions evolve..

I've already agreed with that..

And prophets aren't known to be real or credible..

credible .. creed .. belief.
If they are not believable, then intelligent people would not claim to believe in them.

All we humans have to work with in our reasoning is facts..

Correct.

And as I have stated many times to you, in logic the default of any claim is that it is not true, and the claimant has to present evidence that their claim IS true. So any claim you make we reject it until you can show us evidence that you are correct..

You can take whatever stance you like, as can I.
I accept the testimonies in the Bible and Qur'an, and you do not.
That's more or less all there is to it.
I have my reasons for believing, as you well know.
..but you just goad, and imply that I'm insincere, and lack common sense, and believe because I wish to etc.

I was just listening to a talk by Yusuf Islam .. he became a Muslim in London about the same time as me.
He was known previously as Cat Stevens, and his songs are spiritual in nature .. he was searching for meaning in life .. he had money and success but money alone doesn't bring contentment, and while he was in California, he thought he was going to drown in the Pacific Ocean.

He then completely cried out to God in submission, and survived.
He then found his faith, and although it was not of his culture, his conviction was strong and he found the Arabs very welcoming.
He was out of the music business for many years, but after 9/11,
he was heckled by the media, and decided to return to the music business .. we all have our own stories.

Your story so far, seems to be one of having all the answers,
and are smug.

Believe in prophets and Santa Claus, we don't care. We care that you provide evidence when you claim something is true..

You seem to be speaking for all atheists .. you are not satan's deputy, are you?

This is a statement of someone who feels powerless to manage their own life..

I assume this was meant as an insult..
Almighty God is enough for me, and I put my trust in Him.

I am not ashamed of it .. why should I be?

 

[muhammad_isa]

You cite a few examples of commerce that helped businesses flourish. It also created immoral business practices, like exploitation of workers. Where was God?

Almighty God is not a fool.
If God stopped all evil in the world, then what would be the point in giving us the responsibility of the world in the first place.
He intervenes when He wills.

Where was religion? It didn't stop any of it..

Religion doesn't stop anything, unless the people follow it.
Civilisations rise and fall .. it's human nature.

All through history religious people used whatever means to attain power and money..

Blame, blame .. blame anybody but yourself.

What brought civilizations out of this was the Enlightenment, and human rights, and equality, all developed through reason..

I guess it all depends where you are "sitting", doesn't it?

A study by the World Institute for Development Economics Research at United Nations University reports that the richest 1% of adults alone owned 40% of global assets in the year 2000, and that the richest 10% of adults accounted for 85% of the world total. The bottom half of the world adult population owned 1% of global wealth.
Distribution of wealth - Wikipedia

It is mainly the poor that are suffering the effects of climate-change, yet they are not the ones responsible for it.

..as I say .. it is caused by industrialisation, and the usurious financial system.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

You can take whatever stance you like, as can I.
I accept the testimonies in the Bible and Qur'an, and you do not.
That's more or less all there is to it.

His stance is a logical stance. Is yours?
Faith cant explain prophets. Faith cant tell the difference between true prophets and false ones, as faith is belief without knowledge.

Perhaps debate is impossible between unbelievers and those who are equally unbelievers.

As Muhammad says:

"Those who deny Allah and His messengers, and (those who) wish to separate Allah from His messengers, saying: "We believe in some but reject others": And (those who) wish to take a course midway,-

They are in truth (equally) unbelievers; and we have prepared for unbelievers a humiliating punishment.

To those who believe in Allah and His messengers and make no distinction between any of the messengers, we shall soon give their (due) rewards: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful".

Muhammad 4:150-152



So you say that you accept the testimonies of the Quran and the Bible.
Why do you stop there? Are there any other prophets outside those two sources?
How do you identify them?

How can you tell the difference between true prophets and false prophets who are trying to imitate what they dont understand?


Muhammad explains imitation, and the difference:

When Our Signs are rehearsed to them, they say: "We have heard this (before): if we wished, we could say (words) like these: these are nothing but tales of the ancients."
Muhammad 8:31


"There is, in their stories, instruction for men endued with understanding. It is not a tale invented, but a confirmation of what went before it,- a detailed exposition of all things, and a guide and a mercy to any such as believe".
Muhammad 12:111


Do you believe Muhammad split the moon?
I do. Because Moses split the sea, and Jesus picked the corn.

To some people these things sound very different. But to me they are saying exactly the same thing.

The separating of the lower class.

Position1 - Position2 - Position3
Brass - Silver - Gold
Moon - Star - Sun
Sea - River - Stream
Corn - Olive - Grape
Bread - Oil - Wine
Cattle - Goat - Sheep



Muhammad shows understanding the lower class of hell. The cattle.

"Or thinkest thou that most of them listen or understand? They are only like cattle;- nay, they are worse astray in Path".
Muhammad 25:44

"And We shall drive the sinners to Hell, like thirsty cattle driven down to water."
Muhammad 19:36

"Say, "The truth is from your Lord": Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it): for the wrong-doers We have prepared a Fire whose (smoke and flames), like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in: if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how dreadful the drink! How uncomfortable a couch to recline on!"
Muhammad 18:29

Position1 - Position2 - Position3
Brass - Silver - Gold
Moon - Star - Sun
Sea - River - Stream
Corn - Olive - Grape
Bread - Oil - Wine
Cattle - Goat - Sheep
Desert - Wilderness - Mount

(Muhammad also mentioned fire like a tent. Consider the tent in the desert of Position1, consider the Exodus).



Did you listen earlier when I said the symbols and positions that I show can also be placed into a 12 position format?

"It is We Who have set out the zodiacal signs in the heavens, and made them fair-seeming to (all) beholders."
Muhammad 15:16

Verily in Joseph and his brethren are signs (or symbols) for seekers (after Truth). Muhammad 12:7


Did you listen when I explained animal symbols of the Bible being in different tribe positions like the wolf is with the lamb as Benjamin is with Joseph in the East?

I logically accept the signs of prophets.

I accept Muhammad is a prophet. Because he speaks the same sign language of the prophets.
Peace be upon him.

Salam Shalom.

 

[muhammad_isa]

His stance is a logical stance. Is yours?
Faith cant explain prophets. Faith cant tell the difference between true prophets and false ones, as faith is belief without knowledge..

That would appear to me to be "a play on words".
A person's faith can be strong or weak .. that might be independent of knowledge, but not necessarily.

So you say that you accept the testimonies of the Quran and the Bible.
Why do you stop there? Are there any other prophets outside those two sources?
How do you identify them?

..by using my intelligence, and deciding what is likely, and what is not.

How can you tell the difference between true prophets and false prophets who are trying to imitate what they dont understand?

Ancient religion I deem as inaccurate, but not neccessarily untrue, as there would have been little reason for new revelation .. such as the Qur'an.

Do you believe Muhammad split the moon?
I do. Because Moses split the sea, and Jesus picked the corn..

Yes, exactly.

Did you listen earlier when I said the symbols and positions that I show can also be placed into a 12 position format?

"It is We Who have set out the zodiacal signs in the heavens, and made them fair-seeming to (all) beholders."
Muhammad 15:16

Verily in Joseph and his brethren are signs (or symbols) for seekers (after Truth). Muhammad 12:7


Did you listen when I explained animal symbols of the Bible being in different tribe positions like the wolf is with the lamb as Benjamin is with Joseph in the East?

I logically accept the signs of prophets.

I accept Muhammad is a prophet. Because he speaks the same sign language of the prophets.
Peace be upon him.

Salam Shalom.

Wa'alaikum salam .. indeed, the Qur'an confirms earlier narrations of the Torah.

 

[stevecanuck]

I eat pork often. I don't find it to be an abomination and nothing bad has happened to me yet. Should I keep waiting?

I recently ate bacon-wrapped asparagus. The only abomination in that was the asparagus.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I recently ate bacon-wrapped asparagus. The only abomination in that was the asparagus.

Big man, pig man, ha ha charade you are.
You well heeled big wheel, ha ha charade you are.
And when your hand is on your heart,
You're nearly a good laugh,
Almost a joker,
With your head down in the pig bin,
Saying "Keep on digging."
Pig stain on your fat chin.
What do you hope to find.
When you're down in the pig mine.
You're nearly a laugh,
You're nearly a laugh
But you're really a cry.
-- Roger Waters (of Pink Floyd) --

..now why is it that he wrote those words?
What's the connection between pigs and hearts, do you think?

 

[stevecanuck]

Egypt was a literate civilization that kept historical records. The fact that there are no records of major events, when there certainly would have been records, is evidence the events didn't occurr. It existed uninterrupted right through the period claimed for the exodus. A series of extraordinary plagues followed by 90% of the population marching off into the desert would certainly have made headlines all over the world, so to speak.

Archæologists have found no indication that large numbers of Israelite laborers lived in Egypt. No houses, artifacts, records, DNA -- nothing.

Excellent point. But, it gets better. Moses and the Jews were supposedly there 3300 years ago during the time of Ramses II, who is probably the best documented pharaoh ever. When I lived in Egypt (close to where the basket containing Moses was allegedly found in Maadi), I saw nothing to indicate that anyone but Egyptians and surrounding warring civilizations existed there at that time. Every hieroglyph I saw that depicted slaves were captives of war. Not once it I see a depiction of a person described as a Jew.

 

[stevecanuck]

What is correct to say, is that historians have found no evidence of Exodus (the Israelites leaving Egypt) or, more specifically, they have found no evidence of the Biblical Exodus. That means that historians did not find any evidence of the specific details of the Exodus recorded in the Bible, hence they consider it unlikely.

Nope. He's saying there's no evidence of the Jews being in Egypt at that time.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

I could show evidence that Egypt is a symbol (and that other bible nations are also symbols).


Out of Egypt / Out of the iron furnace:

"But the Lord hath taken you, and brought you forth out of the iron furnace, even out of Egypt, to be unto him a people of inheritance, as ye are this day". Deuteronomy

"For they be thy people, and thine inheritance, which thou broughtest forth out of Egypt, from the midst of the furnace of iron": 1 Kings

"Which I commanded your fathers in the day that I brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, from the iron furnace, saying, Obey my voice, and do them, according to all which I command you: so shall ye be my people, and I will be your God": Jeremiah


This is evidence of the Exodus. Symbol placement which can be verified.

South - North - West - East
Iron - Brass - Silver - Gold
Egypt - Desert - Wilderness - Mountain.

It shows where Moses went.

It is logical. Does anyone consider it?

 

[muhammad_isa]

I could show evidence that Egypt is a symbol (and that other bible nations are also symbols)..

@joelr @Valjean

Contemporary evidence suggests that a plague ravaged through the Middle East around this time..
...
..letters from the Hattians might suggest that the epidemic originated in Egypt and was carried throughout the Middle East by Egyptian prisoners of war.
Regardless of its origin, the epidemic might account for several deaths in the royal family that occurred in the last five years of Akhenaten's reign..
...
Their successors then attempted to erase Akhenaten and his family from the historical record. During the reign of Horemheb, the last pharaoh of the Eighteenth Dynasty and the first pharaoh after Akhenaten who was not related to Akhenaten's family, Egyptians started to destroy temples to the Aten and reuse the building blocks in new construction projects, including in temples for the newly restored god Amun..
...
Additionally, even though the pharaoh oversaw all religious activity, Egyptians could access their gods through regular public holidays, festivals, and processions. This led to a seemingly close connection between people and the gods, especially the patron deity of their respective towns and cities. Akhenaten, however, banned the worship of gods beside the Aten, including through festivals. He also declared himself to be the only one who could worship the Aten, and required that all religious devotion previously exhibited toward the gods be directed toward himself.
Akhenaten - Wikipedia

 

[joelr]

@joelr @Valjean

Contemporary evidence suggests that a plague ravaged through the Middle East around this time..
...
..letters from the Hattians might suggest that the epidemic originated in Egypt and was carried throughout the Middle East by Egyptian prisoners of war.
Regardless of its origin, the epidemic might account for several deaths in the royal family that occurred in the last five years of Akhenaten's reign..
...
Their successors then attempted to erase Akhenaten and his family from the historical record. During the reign of Horemheb, the last pharaoh of the Eighteenth Dynasty and the first pharaoh after Akhenaten who was not related to Akhenaten's family, Egyptians started to destroy temples to the Aten and reuse the building blocks in new construction projects, including in temples for the newly restored god Amun..
...
Additionally, even though the pharaoh oversaw all religious activity, Egyptians could access their gods through regular public holidays, festivals, and processions. This led to a seemingly close connection between people and the gods, especially the patron deity of their respective towns and cities. Akhenaten, however, banned the worship of gods beside the Aten, including through festivals. He also declared himself to be the only one who could worship the Aten, and required that all religious devotion previously exhibited toward the gods be directed toward himself.
Akhenaten - Wikipedia

Wow, fantastic, you finally admit (even though it's not sourced) that historical knowledge is highly likely to be true, especially when from peer-reviewed works.
Great. Although I don't know what point you are raising with this information?

"The Hebrew creation narrative borrowed themes from Mesopotamian mythology, but adapted them to their unique belief in one God."
"Comparative mythology provides historical and cross-cultural perspectives for Jewish mythology. Both sources behind the Genesis creation narrative borrowed themes from Mesopotamian mythology,["
"Genesis 1–11 as a whole is imbued with Mesopotamian myths.["
"Genesis 2 has close parallels with a second Mesopotamian myth, the Atra-Hasis epic – parallels that in fact extend throughout Genesis 2–11, from the Creation to the Flood and its aftermath."

"Generally, Moses is seen as a legendary figure, whilst retaining the possibility that Moses or a Moses-like figure existed in the 13th century BCE."


"
because the Hebrew Bible itself was likely edited and compiled between the 7th and 3rd centuries BCE. So, although the Hebrew Bible preserves traditions going back as far as the 11th century BCE, the theological and cultural positions between the 7th and 3rd centuries BCE were likely read into the past and, among these, was monotheism."

"
Additionally, one of the earliest translations of the Hebrew Bible into another language in the 3rd century BCE attests to the henotheism of ancient Israel. In the Septuigant (LXX), a Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, Deuteronomy 32:8 reads: "When the Most High was apportioning nations, as he scattered Adam's sons, he fixed boundaries of nations according to the number of divine sons" (Pietersma and Wright, 2007). Most High is a reference to El. In this verse, El is said to assign nations and people groups to his divine sons, namely deities. In this verse, Yahweh is assigned to Israel, and other deities to other peoples. Thus, the Hebrew Bible itself reflects the henotheism of ancient Israel and the region more broadly.

And as the previous inscriptions demonstrate, worship of deities other than Yahweh seems to have been a regular part of life for people. Throughout the Hebrew Bible, it suggests that Yahweh has always been the deity that people should worship. Based on these inscriptions, Psalms, Kings, Deuteronomy, and other unmentioned evidence, though, we know this is not the case; rather, henotheism was likely the norm for ancient Israelites and Judeans."

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Additionally, one of the earliest translations of the Hebrew Bible into another language in the 3rd century BCE attests to the henotheism of ancient Israel. In the Septuigant (LXX), a Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, Deuteronomy 32:8 reads: "When the Most High was apportioning nations, as he scattered Adam's sons, he fixed boundaries of nations according to the number of divine sons" (Pietersma and Wright, 2007). Most High is a reference to El. In this verse, El is said to assign nations and people groups to his divine sons, namely deities. In this verse, Yahweh is assigned to Israel, and other deities to other peoples. Thus, the Hebrew Bible itself reflects the henotheism of ancient Israel and the region more broadly.

The nations mentioned in the bible are symbols which are assigned to the twelve tribes of Israel positions. The symbol positioning is the judgement of the nations according to the law of Israel. Three positions to each of the four directions.

The nations are judged just like the other judgements of the bible.

"Put them in fear, O Lord: that the nations may know themselves to be but men". Selah. Psalm.


The nations mentioned in the bible have symbols attached which show their judgement position.

As a simple example:

Gold and wine:

"Babylon hath been a golden cup in the Lord's hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad". Jeremiah.

North - West - East
Brass - Silver - Gold
Bread - Oil - Wine

And here is a slightly more complex example:

Silver and gold / purple and blue:

Silver spread into plates is brought from Tarshish, and gold from Uphaz, the work of the workman, and of the hands of the founder: blue and purple is their clothing: they are all the work of cunning men. Jeremiah

North - West - East
Brass - Silver - Gold
Bread - Oil - Wine
Red - Purple - Blue
Sea - River - Stream
Cattle - Goat - Sheep

(I have added the sea, river, stream layer to show the red sea position of the Exodus, and I have added the cattle, goat, sheep layer to show a red heifer position).

These are the colours of the vail. Observe:

"And he made a vail of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen: with cherubims made he it of cunning work". Exodus.


Consider the colours of the vail, and the linen symbol is of Egypt:

South - North - West - East
Iron - Brass - Silver - Gold
Linen - Red - Purple - Blue
Egypt - Desert - Wilderness - Mountain

"I have decked my bed with coverings of tapestry, with carved works, with fine linen of Egypt". Proverbs.

Consider the Exodus also being: Linen - Red - Purple - Blue


When you have a position format that symbols start stacking up in the same positions it creates something that could be interpreted as being different gods. Gods that are associated with different symbols. But they are just positions with a combination of symbols.

Like I could show the biblical tribe of Israel Dan position as being part man and part horse with a bow. It is not a mythical creature, and its not a god of the Sun or other associated symbols.

It is clearly a position.

North - West - East
Moon - Star - Sun
Brass - Silver - Gold
Bread - Oil - Wine
Spear - Sword - Bow
Cattle - Goat - Sheep
Lion - Leopard - Wolf
Bear - Deer - Horse

Ive already shown how the wolf is with the lamb as Benjamin is with Joseph. Dan is the third gate of the East.

The snorting of his horses was heard from Dan: the whole land trembled at the sound of the neighing of his strong ones; for they are come, and have devoured the land, and all that is in it; the city, and those that dwell therein. Jeremiah.

And at the east side four thousand and five hundred: and three gates; and one gate of Joseph, one gate of Benjamin, one gate of Dan. Ezekiel.

 

[joelr]

The nations mentioned in the bible are symbols which are assigned to the twelve tribes of Israel positions. The symbol positioning is the judgement of the nations according to the law of Israel. Three positions to each of the four directions.

The nations are judged just like the other judgements of the bible.

"Put them in fear, O Lord: that the nations may know themselves to be but men". Selah. Psalm.

.

This looks like Bible code level stuff. Source a journal or book by a PhD in OT Hebrew who talks about this.

The Israelites were henotheists and polytheists, according to experts. EL is not a nation he was the supreme deity of the Canaanites and that is where the Israelites came from. Yahweh and Ashera were a pair.


As early as the 10th century BCE, Israelite and Judean religion began to emerge within the broader West Semitic culture, otherwise known as Canaanite culture. Between the 10th century and 7th centuries BCE, ancient Israelite and Judean religion was polytheistic. The polytheism, though, was counterbalanced by devotion to one or two primary deities, a practice known as henotheism (van der Toorn, 2047). Henotheism is recognition and worship of many deities; however, the primary worship revolves around a single deity. Within Judean and Israelite communities, primary devotion was oftentimes towards Yahweh. As both Judah and Israel were emerging states, Yahweh was the national deity, an idea which finds its origins in religious practices from the Bronze Age.

Outside of the Hebrew Bible, one of the best examples of ancient Israelite and Judean religion comes from an archaeological site called Kuntillet 'Ajrud, possibly dating as early as the 10th century BCE. One inscription from this site reads, "to YHWH of Samaria and to Asherata." Another inscription reads, "To YHWH of Teman and to Asherata" (Na'aman, 305). Both of these inscriptions demonstrate that some ancient Israelites and Judeans were not monotheistic in how they practiced religion; rather, they were henotheistic. YHWH, which may be read as Yahweh, was the primary tribal deity. He is best known from the Hebrew Bible. Asherata, also known as Asherah, was a deity within the Ugaritic pantheon. She is also a common figure in the Hebrew Bible. Therefore, we can confidently say that among the spectrums of how people in ancient Israel and Judah practiced religion, Asherah and Yahweh were both honored in cults. Priority, though, tended to be given to Yahweh.

An inscription from another archaeological site (Khirbet el-Qom, 8th century BCE) says the following: "Blessed is Uriahu by YHWH for through Asherata He saved him from his enemy." Here, we see strong evidence that Asherata, a deity, represented a person named Uriahu before Yahweh. In Ugaritic literature, we see a similar understanding of the deities. The Ugaritic goddess Athirat was a mediator for El, the chief god of the Ugaritic pantheon. The parallel in how people understood deities (Yahweh is to Asherata as El is to Athirat) demonstrates how ancient Israel and Judah shared a cultural and religious framework with the broader West Semitic culture; yet, they were also unique in the sense that they worshiped a particular deity who uniquely represented their tribal system(s).
And as the previous inscriptions demonstrate, worship of deities other than Yahweh seems to have been a regular part of life for people. Throughout the Hebrew Bible, it suggests that Yahweh has always been the deity that people should worship. Based on these inscriptions, Psalms, Kings, Deuteronomy, and other unmentioned evidence, though, we know this is not the case; rather, henotheism was likely the norm for ancient Israelites and Judeans.

One scholar suggests that "whatever the biblical authors may have tried to convey, may not have been… the primary form of belief or religious exercise" (Gilmour, 100). In other words, the Hebrew Bible does not accurately represent how people actually practiced religion in the ancient world. He claims this because the Hebrew Bible itself was likely edited and compiled between the 7th and 3rd centuries BCE. So, although the Hebrew Bible preserves traditions going back as far as the 11th century BCE, the theological and cultural positions between the 7th and 3rd centuries BCE were likely read into the past and, among these, was monotheism.

Additionally, attentive readers may notice that there was no discussion of Judaism. Generally speaking, the scholarly consensus is that the religion of Judaism was distinct from ancient Israelite and Judean religion.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

This looks like Bible code level stuff.

You are associating what I'm saying with something that you have heard of before.
If the direction of my point of view was known then I wouldnt bother being here trying to talk about it.

Source a journal or book by a PhD in OT Hebrew who talks about this.

Talks about what exactly?

The Israelites were henotheists and polytheists, according to experts. EL is not a nation he was the supreme deity of the Canaanites and that is where the Israelites came from. Yahweh and Ashera were a pair.

Wikipedia says El was known as a bull god (has the bull symbol), and also mentions as a desert god.

I recognise those two words/symbols as being straight:

North - West - East
Brass - Silver - Gold
Moon - Star - Sun
Cattle - Goat - Sheep
Spear - Sword - Bow
Desert - Wilderness - Mountain

In the bible Canaan is known as the land of milk and honey.

It is a position.

As in the 12 position format of the tribes of Israel there is a gate of Reuben and a gate of Judah which are both in the north:

"And the gates of the city shall be after the names of the tribes of Israel: three gates northward; one gate of Reuben, one gate of Judah, one gate of Levi". Ezekiel


Reuben as Cattle:
"Now the children of Reuben and the children of Gad had a very great multitude of cattle: and when they saw the land of Jazer, and the land of Gilead, that, behold, the place was a place for cattle;" Numbers.

Judah as Lion:
"And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof". Revelation


It is the land of milk and honey.
The milk is from the cow (cattle), and the honey is from the lion:


"And after a time he returned to take her, and he turned aside to see the carcase of the lion: and, behold, there was a swarm of bees and honey in the carcase of the lion". Judges.


The cattle and lion, the milk and the honey are together.

"And the men of the city said unto him on the seventh day before the sun went down, What is sweeter than honey? And what is stronger than a lion? and he said unto them, If ye had not plowed with my heifer, ye had not found out my riddle". Judges.


I can see the lion eats straw with the Ox in the north.

North - West - East
Cattle - Goat - Sheep
Lion - Leopard - Wolf
Bear - Deer - Horse
Straw - Dust - Stubble

 

[joelr]

You are associating what I'm saying with something that you have heard of before.
If the direction of my point of view was known then I wouldnt bother being here trying to talk about it.



Talks about what exactly?




Wikipedia says El was known as a bull god (has the bull symbol), and also mentions as a desert god.

El was the cheif Canaanite God and was above Yahweh in early Israelite religion.
Ancient Israelite & Judean Religion

As early as the 10th century BCE, Israelite and Judean religion began to emerge within the broader West Semitic culture, otherwise known as Canaanite culture. Between the 10th century and 7th centuries BCE, ancient Israelite and Judean religion was polytheistic. The polytheism, though, was counterbalanced by devotion to one or two primary deities, a practice known as henotheism (van der Toorn, 2047). Henotheism is recognition and worship of many deities; however, the primary worship revolves around a single deity. Within Judean and Israelite communities, primary devotion was oftentimes towards Yahweh. As both Judah and Israel were emerging states, Yahweh was the national deity, an idea which finds its origins in religious practices from the Bronze Age.


Other examples come from the Hebrew Bible itself. In Psalm 82, for example, Yahweh stands in the council of El, the high deity in West Semitic mythology. Yahweh accuses the other deities in the council of not helping poor and needy. In other words, the other deities failed to do their jobs as deities. As a result, El takes away the divine status of the deities and commands Yahweh to rule over the nations. In this piece of poetry from Judah and Israel, we have an example of a tradition in which other deities are within the pantheon; however, Yahweh takes the central role.

Additionally, one of the earliest translations of the Hebrew Bible into another language in the 3rd century BCE attests to the henotheism of ancient Israel. In the Septuigant (LXX), a Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, Deuteronomy 32:8 reads: "When the Most High was apportioning nations, as he scattered Adam's sons, he fixed boundaries of nations according to the number of divine sons" (Pietersma and Wright, 2007). Most High is a reference to El. In this verse, El is said to assign nations and people groups to his divine sons, namely deities. In this verse, Yahweh is assigned to Israel, and other deities to other peoples. Thus, the Hebrew Bible itself reflects the henotheism of ancient Israel and the region more broadly.




The other stuff is Bible code stuff. Same level. To do what you are doing you first need to read the Hebrew version, not an english translation which has been altered in many ways.
Not interested. Source a paper by a PhD who is saying this please.

As you can see above Canaan is the place the Israelites came from. The Gods are also Canaan and the myths are Mesopotamian.

Myths

Biblical myths are found mainly in the first 11 chapters of Genesis, the first book of the Bible. They are concerned with the creation of the world and the first man and woman, the origin of the current human condition, the primeval Deluge, the distribution of peoples, and the variation of languages.

The basic stories are derived from the popular lore of the ancient Middle East; parallels can be found in the extant literature of the peoples of the area. The Mesopotamians, for instance, also knew of an earthly paradise such as Eden, and the figure of the cherubim—properly griffins rather than angels—was known to the Canaanites. In the Bible, however, this mythical garden of the gods becomes the scene of man’s fall and the background of a story designed to account for the natural limitations of human life. Similarly, the Babylonians told of the formation of humankind from clay. But, whereas in the pagan tale the first man’s function is to serve as an earthly menial of the gods, in the scriptural version his role is to rule over all other creatures. The story of the Deluge, including the elements of the ark and the dispatch of the raven and dove, appears already in the Babylonian myths of Gilgamesh and Atrahasis. There, however, the hero is eventually made immortal, whereas in the Bible this detail is omitted because, to the Israelite mind, no child of woman could achieve that status. Lastly, while the story of the Tower of Babel was told originally to account for the stepped temples (ziggurats) of Babylonia, to the Hebrew writer its purpose is simply to inculcate the moral lesson that humans should not aspire beyond their assigned station.

Judaism - Myths

 

[Valjean]

North - West - East
Brass - Silver - Gold
Moon - Star - Sun
Cattle - Goat - Sheep
Spear - Sword - Bow
Desert - Wilderness - Mountain

I'm not convinced. Wouldn't it be:
North - East - South
Copper - Iron - Silver
Meteor - Satellite - Planet
Fish - poultry - Livestock
Club - sword - Sling
Desert - Savanna - Taiga

Where are you coming up with these baffling sequences?

 

[WonderingWorrier]

I'm not convinced. Wouldn't it be:
North - East - South
Copper - Iron - Silver
Meteor - Satellite - Planet
Fish - poultry - Livestock
Club - sword - Sling
Desert - Savanna - Taiga

Where are you coming up with these baffling sequences?

I listened.
Im trying to talk about words that cant be heard. So I create a visual representation to observe and assist in the hearing of the words that I'm trying to talk about.

Yeah the symbols in layers of positions that I show can be observed left to right.
But I'm now wondering if you are still not aware that they can also be observed up and down?
Is that the problem.

Because if you do not understand the up and down then you will not be able to understand what Im talking about.

The up and down shows how prophets speak when weaving layers. It sounds like nonsense.


The up and down connection between cattle and desert (straightness) was highlighted in this post:

I recognise those two words/symbols as being straight:

North - West - East
Brass - Silver - Gold
Moon - Star - Sun
Cattle - Goat - Sheep
Spear - Sword - Bow
Desert - Wilderness - Mountain

Here are some verses which show the layers that I used in that symbol position list:

This verse speaks of the three symbols:
"There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory". Corinthians

Moon - Star - Sun


As this verse speaks of the three symbols:
"Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses," Matthew

Brass - Silver - Gold


As this verse speaks of the three symbols:
"And as for you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats". Ezekiel

Cattle - Goats - Sheep

As this verse speaks of the three symbols:
"Therefore set I in the lower places behind the wall, and on the higher places, I even set the people after their families with their swords, their spears, and their bows". Nehemiah

Spear - Sword - Bow

As this verse speaks of the three symbols:
"For they were departed from Rephidim, and were come to the desert of Sinai, and had pitched in the wilderness; and there Israel camped before the mount". Exodus.

Desert - Wilderness - Mountain


North - West - East
Brass - Silver - Gold
Moon - Star - Sun
Cattle - Goat - Sheep
Spear - Sword - Bow
Desert - Wilderness - Mountain


Hopefully you should be able to now understand words of nonsense as the weaving of the layers into positions.


Like according to the up and down there is a goat in the wilderness.

And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness. Leviticus


And there is sword in the wilderness

We gat our bread with the peril of our lives because of the sword of the wilderness. Lamentations



The straightness of their words can be assessed.

North - West - East
Brass - Silver - Gold
Moon - Star - Sun
Cattle - Goat - Sheep
Spear - Sword - Bow
Desert - Wilderness - Mountain


As you can see goats have swords, just as the cattle have spears:

Rebuke the company of spearmen, the multitude of the bulls, with the calves of the people, till every one submit himself with pieces of silver: scatter thou the people that delight in war. Psalm.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

baffling

Im wondering if what Im saying is still baffling to you.

Do you now clearly understand the speech as speaking layers and the weaving of the layers into certain positions?

I can show more examples of the weaving of those specific layers, and I can add more layers to show and more weaving. If you can catch onto what Im talking about then I can show evidence that the connections are beyond coincidence and shows author intent.

If you didnt understand me talking about the 3 group format, then you probably didnt understand when I showed a 4 group format as the four directions.

And you probably didnt understand when I showed it also fits into a 12 group format having 3 positions to each of the four directions.

The twelve position format is another reason why I know cattle having spears and goats having swords is a fact that can be assessed. Because lions and bears also have spears, and leopards and deer also have swords, and the wolf, sheep, and horse have bows.

North - West - East
Spear - Sword - Bow
Cattle - Goat - Sheep
Lion - Leopard - Wolf
Bear - Deer - Horse


Here is the same thing in twelve position format:

North gates/Spear.
Judah is the Lion
Reuben is the Cattle
Levi is the Bear


West gates / Sword
Naphtali is the deer
Gad is the leopard
Asher is the goat

East gates / Bow
Benjamin is the wolf
Joseph is the sheep
Dan is the horse.


So do you hear words of war in this sentence:

And Asa had an army of men that bare targets and spears, out of Judah three hundred thousand; and out of Benjamin, that bare shields and drew bows, two hundred and fourscore thousand: all these were mighty men of valour. 2 Chronicles.

I do not hear words of war.
If you understood me earlier talking about 12 position format and the lion eating straw with the ox and the wolf being with the lamb then you would be able to comprehend that I hear lion with spear, and wolf with bow. And I show it as fact.


This is twelve position format. Combining symbols(tribes) and directions.


And the gates of the city shall be after the names of the tribes of Israel: three gates northward; one gate of Reuben, one gate of Judah, one gate of Levi.

And at the east side four thousand and five hundred: and three gates; and one gate of Joseph, one gate of Benjamin, one gate of Dan.

And at the south side four thousand and five hundred measures: and three gates; one gate of Simeon, one gate of Issachar, one gate of Zebulun.

At the west side four thousand and five hundred, with their three gates; one gate of Gad, one gate of Asher, one gate of Naphtali.

It was round about eighteen thousand measures: and the name of the city from that day shall be, The Lord is there.

Ezekiel 48:31-35


The things I say and show can also be shown to fit into this 12 gate format.
Its not a coincidence.


Like Ive already shown Joseph as being sheep in the east gate earlier.

Now consider the goat of the west:

And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes. Daniel

North - West - East
Cattle - Goat - Sheep

Consider sheep are on the east side, and the goats are on the west side.


Are you able to comprehend that the sheep are on the right, and the goats are on the left?


"And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left". Matthew