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Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Does god see just one future, or does he see every possible future that results from every possible choice made by every person?

I don't know exactly what God sees .. how could I???
I AM saying that the future is fixed .. just like the past is fixed.

Regardless of who fixes the future, or why it is fixed, if it is fixed then we do not have the ability to control or change our own destiny.

Wrong!
We still have a real choice. It is us that is "fixing it", in exactly the same way as the past is fixed. Why you are thinking that, is because of our perception that somehow, the future and the past have a different nature. They don't .. the past was once the future.
An "observer" that has a different frame of reference, does not force a person in another to act in a certain way. [ think Einstein and relativity ]

God has created a universe where we are basically automatons following a predetermined programme to an inevitable conclusion.

Stuff & nonsense .. sorry :)
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
I AM saying that the future is fixed ..

We still have a real choice. It is us that is "fixing it"

This is a logical contradiction. If the future is, as YOU say, "fixed", then we do NOT have the ability to be the ones who are "fixing it". Either it's already fixed or it isn't. Pick a lane.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
This is a logical contradiction. If the future is, as YOU say, "fixed", then we do NOT have the ability to be the ones who are "fixing it". Either it's already fixed or it isn't. Pick a lane.

It never ceases to amaze me how people can't see why the future being fixed changes anything.
Perhaps you'd like to tell me..

What fixes the past?
..and
What fixes the future?

i.e. why are they different?
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
It never ceases to amaze me how people can't see why the future being fixed changes anything.
Perhaps you'd like to tell me..

What fixes the past?
..and
What fixes the future?

i.e. why are they different?

Wow. If you can't see that, then I don't see any hope for you.

Why are they different? Because ........ I can't believe I even have to say this ........ the past has .......Wow, really? ........ ALREADY HAPPENED.

I don't see much point in responding further. Your posts are beyond irrational.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
What fixes the past?
..and
What fixes the future?
We do it, not anyone else, within the limitations posed by probability and uncertainty. Change is because we also, most of the time, change. This Aupmanyav was not the Aupmanyav of 2001 (or any other time).
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Ha ha!
You are so sure of yourself. :D
..and there was me thinking that you believed in the power of science and logic..

Haha that is an ad hominem fallacy, and sadly it typifies your irrational responses.

I think we'll have to take "baby-steps"..

If you think it will help you understand...

Is it correct that most people accept that we are free to choose say, A or B?

I don't know is it? Are you seriously expecting me to do what you and other theists do here, and make a sweeping claim to know what others think? Have you ever stubbed your toe? Did you choose the amount of adrenalin it released?

Most people will say that we are.

Sigh, argumentum ad populum fallacy....YET AGAIN, Please look this up, and grasp what it means for your claim here.

..so which of the above positions do you take?

None, you are now using a false dichotomy fallacy, and again I can only encourage you to learn what it is, and what it means for your assertions.

Are we free to choose or not? [ assume God does not exist ]

I don't assume any such thing, I don't need to anymore than I need to assume invisible mermaids don't exist. Now what are you asking we are free to assume, and under what circumstances?

You really need to open your mind, and let go of these circular and facile a priori assumptions. We are all free to do some things, and not others, bound by circumstance, so try freeing your mind from the asinine and unevidenced notion that "absolute truth" exists, or is even possible.
 
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Sheldon

Veteran Member
I see.
Oh well, we aren't all scientifically minded.
Do you know anything about science or Einstein?
..probably not.
As you were :)
You keep making this absurd appeal to authority fallacy by name dropping Einstein, and the real irony is he did not share your theistic beliefs, so your fallacy is doubly erroneous.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
..We are all free to do some things, and not others, bound by circumstance, so try freeing your mind from the asinine and unevidenced notion that "absolute truth" exists, or is even possible.

You're just avoiding the issue..
..go on .. choose one. Do you choose A or B? :D

..maybe you have 'somebody' with you who is forcing you to be obstinate?
However, that is not what is meant by free-will in this context, as I think you well know.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
You're just avoiding the issue..
..go on .. choose one. Do you choose A or B? :D

You're avoiding addressing the contradiction in your claims, that you have free will, and yet the future is fixed. Those are mutually exclusive positions, even your religious indoctrination has taught you not to see such simple facts, in order to preserve your cherished theistic beliefs.

..maybe you have 'somebody' with you who is forcing you to be obstinate?

No true Scotsman fallacy, yet again. Try to be rational and you will see that truth is not an absolute.

However, that is not what is meant by free-will in this context, as I think you well know.

You claim to have free will, and claim that your future is fixed, you can pretend this is about the meaning of free will now, but I think even the hearing impaired heard those goal posts shifting.

I AM saying that the future is fixed

So which is it, are our futures fixed or do we have free will? As those are demonstrably mutually exclusive positions you are claiming.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
You're avoiding addressing the contradiction in your claims, that you have free will, and yet the future is fixed. Those are mutually exclusive positions..

They would be mutually exclusive IF and only if, that which was fixing it was beyond your control. But it isn't.

This is your argument:-
  1. An agent is responsible for an action only if said agent could have done otherwise.
  2. An agent could have done otherwise only if causal determinism is false.
  3. Therefore, an agent is responsible for an action only if causal determinism is false.
The above argument is incorrect.
It should be:-
  1. An agent is responsible for an action only if said agent could have done otherwise.
  2. An agent is free to do otherwise when he would have done otherwise had he WANTED to do otherwise
What this means is that the future being fixed is not the criteria of whether we are free to choose. Our ability to choose is dependent on that which fixes it, which in this case is ourselves. We don't choose something unless we want to. Whatever we choose becomes the fixed past.

It is easy to see how the past can be fixed by that which we chose freely. As soon as we consider the future, we become confused.
We say that it hasn't happened yet, and so it is different.
It is not different. Fixed means fixed.
The past was fixed by what we chose .. as we are choosing what we do in this present moment, it then becomes the fixed past.

There is no difference between the past and the future in this respect. It's all the same from an observer within a different time frame.

Albert Einstein once wrote: People like us who believe in physics know that the distinction between past, present and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion.
 
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Sheldon

Veteran Member
They would be mutually exclusive IF and only if, that which was fixing it was beyond your control. But it isn't.


Nope, your claim the future is fixed negates the possibility of free will.

This is your argument:-

Nope, those are your arguments, not mine.

The above argument is incorrect.
It should be:-

So here is the false dichotomy fallacy, you're relentlessly irrational.

the future being fixed is not the criteria of whether we are free to choose.

The idiocy of that assertion is self evident sorry.

We don't choose something unless we want to.

Then it axiomatically cannot be fixed...QED...

As soon as we consider the future, we become confused.

I'm not sure about the we...

There is no difference between the past and the future in this respect. It's all the same from an observer with a different time frame.

You're in a different time frame, I'm going to need something more than your usual bare assertion...
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Nope, those are your arguments, not mine.
OK.
This is your argument ..
"Nope, your claim the future is fixed negates the possibility of free will."
"The idiocy of that assertion is self evident sorry." :D

I have tried to explain it to you.
You have a fixed idea, and want to stick.
It's your choice ;)
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
I can't answer you.
You gave me an example of what you'd accept as evidence..
i.e. some scientific evidence in scripture that wasn't known at the time

I can't think of anything.
Scripture is part of the humanities, and not science :)

What do you mean, you can't answer me?

In post 2342, you presented a list of things you claimed were arguments for the existence of God. Allow me to quote the post in question:

Here are a few reasons why theists believe in God..
3 Arguments for the existence of God
  • 3.1 Empirical arguments
    • 3.1.1 Argument from beauty
    • 3.1.2 Argument from consciousness
    • 3.1.3 Argument from design
    • 3.1.4 Rational warrant
    • 3.1.5 Inductive arguments
  • 3.2 Logical arguments
    • 3.2.1 Aquinas' Five Ways
    • 3.2.2 Cosmological argument
    • 3.2.3 Ontological argument
  • 3.3 Subjective arguments
    • 3.3.1 Arguments from historical events or personages
    • 3.3.2 Arguments from testimony
      • 3.3.2.1 Arguments grounded in personal experience

All I am asking you to do is pick any one of them and I will show you why it is not a valid argument. Why can't you do it?
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
In most cases there is only one way to interpret what He said because it was straightforward.

Whether anyone else knew what He knew could be checked. It certainly was not common knowledge.

Very well. Would you please show me something Mr B said that is clear and unambiguous and directly presents knowledge that could not possibly have been known by people at the time?
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
All I am asking you to do is pick any one of them and I will show you why it is not a valid argument. Why can't you do it?

I've already answered that question..
What is the point of picking one just to be told by you that the evidence is inadmissable?
We will have to agree to disagree :)
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
Well, obviously that is true as otherwise we would be believing the claims if every Tom, Dick, and Harry.

So what else does a person need?

You already know what I consider to be evidence but it was not sufficient for you so you will have to stipulate what would be sufficient, and not something that is impossible to procure, something realistic.

You convincing yourself that the claim is accurate does not count as evidence.

What I would consider evidence would be clear and unambiguous scientific knowledge that could not have been known by the people of the time. If Mr B had spoken of quantum mechanics, that sort of thing. Also a clear an unambiguous prophecy. For example, if Mr B spoke of the sinking of the Titanic, or World War 1, since both of those happened after his death.

No, it is just asking you to think about it because that thought process could lead you to think about possibilities you had not thought of before.

Irrelevant. I would still need some way to determine which was the correct one though, wouldn't I?

It is obvious why people agree on material things like the length of a rope, because we an see and measure them. They are verifiable, so how could people disagree?

Exactly!

Now, we have already determined that things which are verifiable, like the length of a piece of rope, are agreed on by everyone who examines the evidence. Surely if religious faith was verifiable there will also be agreement. And yet there is widespread disagreement. Thus, we can conclude that religious faith is not verifiable in any objective manner.

Agreed?

That is completely illogical. Just because there are different interpretations of a religion that does not mean that the religion is made up and that it contains no objective truth.

True. But it does mean that we are totally unable to determine which - if any - parts are objectively true.

Just because there are different interpretations of a religion that does not mean that one interpretation is not correct as I pointed out in my previous post. One or many interpretations of a religion could be correct.

I disagree that there could be many interpretations that are true. If something is objectively true, then there is only one correct interpretation. There are not, after all, several different interpretations about how long a piece of rope is.

And as I've said, even if there is a correct interpretation for a particular religious faith, we have no way of determining which interpretation that is. Or even if there is a correct interpretation at all.

There is no way the objective facts about a religion will ever be viewed the same way because people are different so they will view them differently. Religion is not as simple as something we can see and measure like the length of a rope or any other scientifically verifiable thing.

So we can not conclude that any religious faith is objectively true, and we agree that religious faith cannot be verified.

So what? There was a reason I said it ans I did not deny it.

Well then, since you admit you were making a declaration, let's not go with the old, "I'm just stating my beliefs, not making any claims" excuse anymore, okay?
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
OK.
This is your argument ..
"Nope, your claim the future is fixed negates the possibility of free will."
"The idiocy of that assertion is self evident sorry."

I have tried to explain it to you.
You have a fixed idea, and want to stick.
It's your choice

Ad hominem, you cannot address my objection to your claim, so you attack me. Now explain why me disbelieving your claim is "fixed" but you ignoring all objections and repeating it is not...

irony overload....again.

If the future is fixed, then we demonstrably cannot change it, thus free will is negated. Address that simple logical fact, if you can, and try and avoid circular fallacies and tautologies.
 
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