Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[Tiberius]

I've already answered that question..
What is the point of picking one just to be told by you that the evidence is inadmissable?
We will have to agree to disagree

What's the point? Well, the point is to educate you about logical fallacies so you don't use them. I mean, I'm not just going to say you're wrong. I'll be explaining exactly why I think it is wrong. We are here for a discussion, are we not?

 

[Sheldon]

I've already answered that question..
What is the point of picking one just to be told by you that the evidence is inadmissable?
We will have to agree to disagree

I don't think you have a very good grasp of how debate works...

 

[Aupmanyav]

Well, obviously that is true as otherwise we would be believing the claims if every Tom, Dick, and Harry.

If a person claims something and does not provide sufficient evidence, then I would term that person a liar and perhaps a charlatan, and disbelieve all that he/she says further and be wary of him/her. To believe what that person says will be stupid.

It is true that what is sufficient for a person will be different from what another person thinks. That is why Tom, Dick and Harrys are believed. That is a schema in monotheistic religions. In Eastern religions, we have the freedom to dissect it thread-bare. In Western religions it is termed as blasphemy.

There is none other God besides Him.

Why Bahaollah is claiming that there is just one God (other self-proclaimed messengers (prior to Bahaollah and later to him also did that), because then he has to make a claim that he is the messenger of that God (manifestation or whatever, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was to claim later that he was the mahdi, i.e., returning Jesus). One story feeds the other. No prophet / son / messenger / manifestation / mahdi ever gave a solid proof of existence of any God or their being the sent representatives of God.

That is why these so called prophets / sons / messengers / manifestations / mahdis do not deny the ones who claimed such a status earlier. Because that makes their own story false. Jesus accepted the prophets before him, Mohammad accepted Jesus, Moses and prophets befroe them. Bahaollah accepted Zoroaster, Moses, Jesus, Mohammad and all those who came before him. Later Abdul Baha added the names of Krishna and Buddha too. Every time it is like a new book or episode of Harry Potter or James Bond.

 

[Sheldon]

you should not make assumptions

God heard my cries and He answered them

Do you really not see it?

 

[Trailblazer]

You're avoiding addressing the contradiction in your claims, that you have free will, and yet the future is fixed. Those are mutually exclusive positions, even your religious indoctrination has taught you not to see such simple facts, in order to preserve your cherished theistic beliefs.

Just because God knows what we will do that does not mean the future is fixed. The future is not fixed. It is changing constantly.

God knows what we will choose but this foreknowledge is not what causes us to do anything. We cause our life to unfold as it does by virtue of our own decisions and actions. God knows everything we have ever done, what we are doing now, and what we will do in the future because God's essential knowledge surrounds the realities of all things. God does not exist in time so God knows everything simultaneously.

God knows everything that is happening on this earthly plane of existence but God is causing anything to happen by knowing it will happen. There is no connection between what God knows and what actually happens in this contingent world.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

 

[CG Didymus]

If a person claims something and does not provide sufficient evidence, then I would term that person a liar and perhaps a charlatan, and disbelieve all that he/she says further and be wary of him/her. To believe what that person says will be stupid.

It is true that what is sufficient for a person will be different from what another person thinks. That is why Tom, Dick and Harrys are believed. That is a special character of monotheistic religions. In Eastern religions, we have the freedom to dissect it thread-bare. In Western religions it is termed as blasphemy.Why Bahaollah is claiming that there is just one God (other self-proclaimed messengers (prior to Bahaollah and later to him also did that), because then he has to make a claim that he is the messenger of that God (manifestation or whatever, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was to claim later that he was the mahdi, i.e., returning Jesus). One story feeds the other. No prophet / son / messenger / manifestation / mahdi ever gave a solid proof of existence of any God or their being the sent representatives of God.

That is why these so called prophets / sons / messengers / manifestations / mahdis do not deny the ones who claimed such a status earlier. Because that makes their own story false. Jesus accepted the prophets before him, Mohammad accepted Jesus, Bahaollah accepted Zoroaster, Moses, Jesus, Mohammad and all those who came before him. Later Abdul Baha added the names of Krishna and Buddha too. Every time it is like a new book or episode of Harry Potter or James Bond.

Between the Ahmadiyyas and Baha'is they probably deny each other don't they? Yet the followers of each, and I'm sure both have very knowledge people in them, can prove their case, that their guy is the true one and the other is the fraud.

 

[CG Didymus]

God knows everything we have ever done, what we are doing now, and what we will do in the future

Just because God knows what we will do that does not mean the future is fixed. The future is not fixed. It is changing constantly.

That's just too weird to imagine. God creates everything. A zillion stars and planets... then on this one God let's people live out their lives, knowing what they will do, and then judges them?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Between the Ahmadiyyas and Baha'is they probably deny each other don't they? Yet the followers of each, and I'm sure both have very knowledge people in them, can prove their case, that their guy is the true one and the other is the fraud.

Oh yes. Bahais deny that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was mahdi, the returning Jesus. They gave that station to Bab. Furthermore, Bahaollah claimed that there will be no messenger from God for a thousand years after him, therefore, they cannot accept Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad talks only about his claim of being the returning Jesus and ignores Bahaollah. You see, they are competing brands, just like Pepsi and Coca-cola.

 

[Trailblazer]

Do you really not see it?

All I can see is you committing the cherry picking fallacy by picking snippets of my posts with which you constructed a straw man.

Cherry Picking

Description: When only select evidence is presented in order to persuade the audience to accept a position, and evidence that would go against the position is withheld. The stronger the withheld evidence, the more fallacious the argument.
Cherry Picking

You are also committing the straw man fallacy because you are misrepresenting my actual position by cherry picking only what you want to pick in order to misrepresent my actual position.

straw man
an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=straw+man+definition

You are as transparent as glass right after the window washer has come and gone.

BTW, God heard my cries and He answered them is not an assumption, it is a faith-based belief.

 

[Tiberius]

Just because God knows what we will do that does not mean the future is fixed. The future is not fixed. It is changing constantly.

God knows what we will choose but this foreknowledge is not what causes us to do anything. We cause our life to unfold as it does by virtue of our own decisions and actions. God knows everything we have ever done, what we are doing now, and what we will do in the future because God's essential knowledge surrounds the realities of all things. God does not exist in time so God knows everything simultaneously.

God knows everything that is happening on this earthly plane of existence but God is causing anything to happen by knowing it will happen. There is o connection between what God knows and what actually happens in this contingent world.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

Irrelevant.

If God knows I am going to wear the red shirt tomorrow, then I MUST wear the red shirt. I am not able to choose the blue shirt instead.

If God knows what we will do, then the future is fixed as a future where we will do those things he has foreseen. You can not get away from that.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's just too weird to imagine. God creates everything. A zillion stars and planets... then on this one God let's people live out their lives, knowing what they will do, and then judges them?

What is weird about it? Humans have free will to make moral choices and we are judged according to the moral choices that we make.

The fact that God knows what we will do has nothing to do with what we choose to do. God knows what we will do because God is all-knowing. It is as simple as that.

 

[Trailblazer]

Irrelevant.

If God knows I am going to wear the red shirt tomorrow, then I MUST wear the red shirt. I am not able to choose the blue shirt instead.

If God knows what we will do, then the future is fixed as a future where we will do those things he has foreseen. You can not get away from that.

You will choose the red shirt because you chose to wear a red shirt.
God does not cause you to choose red the shirt by knowing you will choose the red shirt.

The future is not fixed because what God knows changes as we make choices. God knew we would make those choices because God is all-knowing, but God's knowledge is not what caused us to make the choices.

The only reason we will do what God knows we will do is because God knows everything that we will do.

What God knows is not what causes anything to happen. That is what you just do not seem to be able to grasp.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Irrelevant.

If God knows I am going to wear the red shirt tomorrow, then I MUST wear the red shirt. I am not able to choose the blue shirt instead.

If God knows what we will do, then the future is fixed as a future where we will do those things he has foreseen. You can not get away from that.

Sure she can. Cognitive dissonance to the rescue.

 

[CG Didymus]

Oh yes. Bahais deny that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was mahdi, the returning Jesus. They gave that station to Bab. Furthermore, Bahaollah claimed that there will be no messenger from God for a thousand years after him, therefore, they cannot accept Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad talks only about his claim of being the returning Jesus and ignores Bahaollah. You see, they are competing brands, just like Pepsi an Coca-cola.

That's an interesting comparison. Soft drinks? Sugary, or artificially sweetened, and flavored carbonated drinks? But we could throw in lots of religions. Christians that believe Jesus is God? Baha'is say are wrong, yet they have millions and millions of followers. I don't believe the claims of Joseph Smith, but more people believe him than believe in Baha'u'llah. So does a "prophet" need to be true to get people to believe in his claims? Or just sound kind of true, because no one can really prove it one way or another.

Now if the religions gets people to be better people, then that's a good thing. But is that what happens? It seems that a lot of religions, mostly the "organized" religions, get to a point where they have mostly just nominal believers that do the minimum to qualify even calling themselves believers.

 

[CG Didymus]

What is weird about it? Humans have free will to make moral choices and we are judged according to the moral choices that we make.

The fact that God knows what we will do has nothing to do with what we choose to do. God knows what we will do because God is all-knowing. It is as simple as that.

Or God doesn't know, and we do make choices, good or bad, that has an effect on what happens. Kind of generally speaking good choices put positive things into motion and bad, even if in the short term can have seemingly positive things happen, in the long term negative things will happen. If it's already known, why would God let it play out? What a jerk. He creates people he knows will do all sorts of horrible things and let's them?

Or, he knows some little kid is going to chase a ball into the street and get hit by a car? How does God judge that? "Hey kid, I hope you learned your lesson?" "Yeah God, I'm dead." No, it's still weird. That's why I like some sort of reincarnation thing... To get several chances to get things right and learn from the mistakes of past lives. Even get a redo on this life. Send that little kid back and see if he looks both ways before he runs into the street after that ball. What would you do different? If you knew where your other choice took you.

 

[CG Didymus]

If God knows what we will do, then the future is fixed as a future where we will do those things he has foreseen.

So it's not fixed? But it will happen exactly how God knows it will happen? We are free to choose anything we want but will always make the choice that God knows we will make? Or, some creative forces are at work. Some positive. Some dark and negative, and lots of different things can happen. Our choices do have an effect. But most things seem as if they are totally random.

 

[Trailblazer]

If it's already known, why would God let it play out? What a jerk. He creates people he knows will do all sorts of horrible things and let's them?

The people who do horrible things are to blame, God is not, because God does not do those things.
Why shouldn't God let them do what they choose to do? He created humans with a rational mind and free will to choose and He sent Messengers to reveal teachings and laws, so if humans reject those teachings so if they make the wrong choices that's on them.

 

[KWED]

Oh please .. go on .. choose one. Do you choose A or B?
..and please don't answer 'neither' or AB

What are you on about? The actual "choice" is irrelevant. It is the process by which those choices are arrived at.

Whatever choice any of us face (whether it is A 0r B, or one of 50 options), our response is determined to a degree by the nature of our lives up to that point, in relation to that decision. Do you understand what "context" means?

What is silly about it?

Your claim that a partial absence of free will means that a person performing a task isn't actually performing that task. They are still steering and braking, or choosing a meal or voting for a candidate or picking a paint colour or accepting a job. The issue is why they are making choice A over B, C, D etc, rather than a different choice, and how likely it is that we choose one over others.

It's amusing how you try to act supercilious and knowledgable when you are clearly out of your depth here.
Also interesting how you avoid answering most of my points and questions. Don't worry, you aren't the first and won't be the last.

 

[KWED]

We can't do something different than what God knows we will do but that is only because what we will do is identical to what God knows we will do, but that does not mean that God determines what we will do by His foreknowledge.

Predestination and infallible omniscience are two different issues (although the effective outcome is the same, a negation of free will).
Infallible omniscience is not god deciding what we will do, it is making the outcome of our decision inevitable by the inability of his foreknowledge to be wrong.

This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

Here your man is making the common, fundamental error of conflating our ability to make guesses about future events with gods infallible omniscience.

If you knew, with absolute certainty and a complete inability to be wrong, that I would order chicken for dinner tonight at a restaurant - when I came to order, could I choose beef or fish? No, obviously not, because you cannot be wrong. Do I still have the ability to choose beef or fish? Another no.
So if I cannot choose, and have no ability to choose, where is my free will?

 

[muhammad_isa]

If the future is fixed, then we demonstrably cannot change it, thus free will is negated.
Address that simple logical fact, if you can..

I already have, but you don't seem to understand.
You just keep repeating "If the future is fixed, then we demonstrably cannot change it", and you think it's so obvious and that it cannot be any other way.

Try re-reading my post #2433 and especially
"Our ability to choose is dependent on that which fixes it, which in this case is ourselves."

What about this ..
"If the past is fixed, then we demonstrably cannot change it, thus free will is negated"

The above is not true .. would you agree?