Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[KWED]

They would be mutually exclusive IF and only if, that which was fixing it was beyond your control. But it isn't.

If I decide whether or not my future is fixed, then it is not fixed!

Our ability to choose is dependent on that which fixes it, which in this case is ourselves.

Nonsense. Our ability to make a choice depends on there being a choice to make. If there is no choice, it is irrelevant why there is no choice.

We don't choose something unless we want to. Whatever we choose becomes the fixed past.

Our desire to choose, or our desire for a particular option is again irrelevant. The issue is simply the possibility of choice.

Could you link to where you are getting your argument from, because I suspect you haven't grasped it (unless the source is equally confused).

It is easy to see how the past can be fixed by that which we chose freely.

The past isn't fixed by our choices. Our choices are fixed by being in the past.

As soon as we consider the future, we become confused.

Not all of us.

We say that it hasn't happened yet, and so it is different.
It is not different. Fixed means fixed.
The past was fixed by what we chose .. as we are choosing what we do in this present moment, it then becomes the fixed past.

You seem to be confusing yourself by attempting to take two different positions here. We agree that (under the influence of god) the future is fixed. You then try to claim that we can still change that fixed future.
I understand why you are getting yourself in this muddle. Belief in god sometimes demands you throw out logic and reason in order to reconcile contradictory concepts.

There is no difference between the past and the future in this respect. It's all the same from an observer within a different time frame.

The author of a book knows everything that happens in that book.
The person reading it does not. Until they read the next line or chapter, a whole world of possibilities await the characters therein, but in reality, there is only one possible outcome. The reader cannot change how the book ends, nor can the characters in the book.

Albert Einstein once wrote: People like us who believe in physics know that the distinction between past, present and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion.

How does that impact on the issue of god's predestination or infallible omniscience affecting our free will?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Ok. Explain how "science and Einstein" mean that a person's future is fixed in the same way as their past is.

The future is a series of events. Most people imagine the future as "blank", until it is "filled in". Whereas the past we perceive as "already being filled in".

They are both a series of events that are being "fixed" by something .. no?
In reality, the future is not blank, it is just not known.
If it was blank, then the planet must have exploded, or something.

 

[KWED]

I've already answered that question..
What is the point of picking one just to be told by you that the evidence is inadmissable?
We will have to agree to disagree

"I have made some claims about god/religion, but I am not prepared to back up those assertions with evidence or rational argument".
It's like deja vu all over again.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..We agree that (under the influence of god) the future is fixed..

No, we don't.
Assume that there is no God, the argument is still valid.

The author of a book knows everything that happens in that book.
The person reading it does not.

This has nothing to do with my argument.
It is not about what we know or don't know.

 

[Sheldon]

..you are dodging the question

You're not making any sense, the past can't be changed, I gave you my answer. Ever heard this?

“The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.”

― Omar Khayyám

is it possible that the past can be fixed
while people are exercising their free-will?
Yes or No?

Fixed? I have no idea what you mean by "fixed". The past cannot be changed, I'm not sure how much clearer I can be. or how much more cryptic you can be.

Before or after are purely our perceptions.
Both time periods are a series of events.
They are both fixed.
.. it is just that we know what the past is, but not what the future is

Word salad sorry, again I have no idea what it is you're trying to say, or what relevance it has to you contradicting yourself by claiming the future is both fixed, and yet simultaneously can be altered by what you refer to as free will. The two positions are mutually exclusive in reality. Whatever Alice in Wonderland scenario you've concocted here is not reality.

..so what fixes the past? Events fix the past, including those that arise from decisions we make.

What on earth are you talking about, fix how? Again the past cannot be altered, so I have no idea what you men by fixed here?

..and what fixes the future? It is identical .. the same as the past, above

Again that is gibberish sorry. The past has happened and cannot be altered, the future has not and potentially can be, unless as you claim it is fixed.

Are you claiming the future is fixed, that it cannot be altered? Only that is what fixed means, and that is what you said?

 

[CG Didymus]

What is weird about it?

This is weird to me... That God created people to know and to love him, but doesn't give them enough knowledge and capacity for most of the people to know and to love him. That he sends messengers that bring a message that he, God, knows will be misunderstood, misinterpreted, and, because God, until recently, let's people write it, no one can be sure what the true, original message ever was. And even when he has his messenger write the message himself, it is still questionable for most people whether it truly came from an all-knowing God. That God let's things get out of hand and then finally he does intervene by sending a new messenger but still makes things so ambiguous that most people will reject the messenger. And God knows this and keeps doing it, and then punishes people for not listening to his messenger? And, since he knew this is what would happen, why create the universe and the people just to watch it all play out exactly how he knew it would? But other than that... nothing weird about it.

 

[Sheldon]

The future is a series of events. Most people imagine the future as "blank", until it is "filled in". Whereas the past we perceive as "already being filled in".

The future is nothing yet, that's why we call it the future to distinguish it from the past which has happened and can't be changed, and the present which is unfolding in real time and can be influenced within the boundaries of circumstance.

They are both a series of events that are being "fixed" by something .. no?

No.

In reality, the future is not blank, it is just not known.
If it was blank, then the planet must have exploded, or something.

What utter nonsense.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Fixed? I have no idea what you mean by "fixed".

That's what the problem is, it seems..

I really need a whiteboard or something. I suppose I could upload something but I'll try something easier first.


Past---------------------------------------------------------->Future

The line above represents the passing of time.
The present is somewhere along that line
The past and future are not really at the ends of the line.
From left to right, we have a series of events.
Some are known, and some are not known.

That is what I mean by fixed.
See post #2482 also, as that might help.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The future is nothing yet..

That is the same as saying it is blank.
The future is a series of events, that are not known.

 

[muhammad_isa]

What utter nonsense.

Well..
..clearly you don't understand time as a nuclear physicist does.

 

[CG Didymus]

The people who do horrible things are to blame, God is not, because God does not do those things.
Why shouldn't God let them do what they choose to do? He created humans with a rational mind and free will to choose and He sent Messengers to reveal teachings and laws, so if humans reject those teachings so if they make the wrong choices that's on them.

I don't know about Baha'is, but my Christian friends do believe God can change "sinners". God can touch a person's heart and get them to turn to him. But, even they, the Christians, have a hard time why God doesn't change the hearts of all people. Why he let's some continue in their selfish, evil ways knowing that, according to the beliefs of those Christians, that God is going to cast them into hell.

Well, maybe I do know a little of what Baha'is believe. Could you comment on the afterlife? A person that has done all sorts of bad things and has rejected God in this life, is then far from God in the spiritual world? Do they have the opportunity to change and right the wrongs they committed? And, since most people aren't all that good or bad, where do they end up in the spiritual world? And can they do things to advance and get closer to God? If not, then I'd say that concept of God sucks. One chance in life... And their soul/spirit is judged for the choices their not-to-bright human body decided to do?

 

[CG Didymus]

An imaginary entity like God cannot affect our choice.

I know what you're saying, but I think we need to look at how believing in imaginary concepts of God does affect choices. Some of them good... Some of them bad. Like a religion that believes it is the one and only truth invades another land and forces the people to stop believing in their imaginary Gods, but, instead, believe in the Gods of the conquering people.

Then, some people in the conquered land realize that their old imaginary Gods were more real than these new imaginary Gods of the conquering people, so they start a rebellion against the conquerors... believing that their imaginary Gods are the real true ones. And that's just sad to think these imaginary concepts of Gods can cause people to make the choice to kill each other their beliefs about their imaginary Gods. And I think Baha'is would agree that most all concepts of God, other than theirs, is false in some ways, therefore... imaginary.

But is theirs any better? An invisible, unknowable God that the only thing we can know about this God is what some self-proclaim "messenger" has told us about God? And if believing in imaginary Gods could only cause good choices... That wouldn't be so bad. But, imaginary Gods have people doing a lot of bad things too. Not to mention the cult leaders that promote imaginary Gods and have a great affect on the people that believe in them.

 

[KWED]

Just because God knows what we will do that does not mean the future is fixed.

So we can do things that god does not know we will do.

God knows what we will choose but this foreknowledge is not what causes us to do anything.

*sigh* Once again, that is not the argument here.
God's infallible omniscience means that we can only do what he knows we will do. We are still making a "choice", but that choice is inevitable. Even though it seems to us that we are making a free choice, there is only oner possible outcome.

We cause our life to unfold as it does by virtue of our own decisions and actions. God knows everything we have ever done, what we are doing now, and what we will do in the future because God's essential knowledge surrounds the realities of all things. God does not exist in time so God knows everything simultaneously.

How does this affect the fact that we can only do what god knows we will do?

There is no connection between what God knows and what actually happens in this contingent world.

Of course there is!
The only events that can happen in this world are the ones that god knows will happen. Nothing can happen in this world that goes does not know will happen. The two are fundamentally connected.

"Just because something must happen, doesn't mean that something different can't happen instead" make no sense whatsoever.

 

[CG Didymus]

It is quite apparent that in case a God created humans, he did not create them rational, otherwise people would not indulge in evil deeds. And just like God, the messengers sent by him also failed because humans still engage in evil deeds. It is a foolish thing to expect that where he himself failed, his prophets / son / messengers / manifestations / mahdis will succeed. That people still make bad choices, and that clearly means that this supposed God and his self-proclaimed prophets / son / messengers / manifestations / mahdis are nothing other than a farce.

To give people just enough information to make equally justifiable to believe in the new messenger or not to believe in him. Both sides have, what they think, are good reasons to believe or not believe. But that's not God's fault? He didn't know that would happen? But God has to make it a little vague, that way people can be made responsible for their "free-will" choice? If it was too obvious that God and the messenger were real, then it wouldn't really be much of a choice? Then what's this God trying to prove? Of course some people are going to believe and most people are going to reject him.

But what if the Baha'is are wrong? What if Jesus or Muhammad is the true way and the Baha'i Faith was just God testing those believers to see if they'd stray? Or, if like you say, they're all imaginary. And it is just people still making up Gods to get people to follow some religious rules and beliefs. Then another guy comes a long and changes it up a little and says, "Come on people? Do you really think all those other religions were true? Now let me tell you the real truth... I am God's messenger with the real truth about God." And someone asks, "Can you prove it?" "Oh course, I'm here aren't I? Would I be here if God didn't send me? Would God send me here just to lie to you and make up stories?" And some would be satisfied and say, "Okay, I guess that's true." And again, Atheists would ask, "Is there any tangible proof. What you said isn't proof."

 

[KWED]

What is weird about it? Humans have free will to make moral choices

Not if we can only make the choice that god knows we will make.
It is not enough to simply assert "but we have free will". You need to explain how, if we can only make one particular choice, we have free will.

and we are judged according to the moral choices that we make.

Who decides what is "moral" and "immoral", and on what basis?

The fact that God knows what we will do has nothing to do with what we choose to do. God knows what we will do because God is all-knowing. It is as simple as that.

And being all-knowing means that what he knows is fixed - because he knows it. Otherwise things would happen that he did not know.
It really isn't rocket science.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The only events that can happen in this world are the ones that god knows will happen. Nothing can happen in this world that god does not know will happen.

That is absolutely correct.
What is NOT correct, is this:-

"We are still making a 'choice', but that choice is inevitable. Even though it seems to us that we are making a free choice, there is only one possible outcome."
[ i.e. you are implying that we are not free to make a choice]
[ An agent is free to do otherwise when he would have done otherwise had he WANTED to do otherwise ]

I don't know if you know anything about the theory of relativity,
..but it is fairly well known that if somebody travels at a speed approaching that of the speed of light, we get a "time distortion" for want of a better phrase.
Does that phenomenon have anything to do with our free-will?
I mean, what is this mechanism that MAKES us choose what has to be chosen?

No .. it is not about "one outcome" means we have no choice.
We DO have a choice, but God is in a different frame of reference.
[ scientific, relativity speak ]

 

[KWED]

You will choose the red shirt because you chose to wear a red shirt.

At time T (the moment the choice is made) can he chose the blue shirt?
Obviously not, because that would mean god was wrong.
Therefore he does not have the ability to chose the blue shirt - even though he feels like he can. He might stand in from of the mirror for ten minutes thinking "red or blue, blue or red?" but blue is never an actual option. Therefore no free will to chose blue.

God does not cause you to choose red the shirt by knowing you will choose the red shirt.

Yes he does, but removing the ability to chose blue.

The future is not fixed because what God knows changes as we make choices.

That negates the whole concept of infallible omniscience!
What you are describing is god observing our actions as we make them - and I can do that!

God knew we would make those choices because God is all-knowing, but God's knowledge is not what caused us to make the choices.

It causes that choice to be inevitable.

The only reason we will do what God knows we will do is because God knows everything that we will do.

Exactly. We can only do the things that god knows we will do, and if he knows everything then we have no free will over anything.

That is what you just do not seem to be able to grasp.

Sorry, but it is clearly you who is unable to grasp a simple concept. It is understandable why - it's called "cognitive dissonance".

 

[KWED]

The people who do horrible things are to blame, God is not, because God does not do those things.

If a policeman knew that a criminal was going to murder someone, and stood by while they did it saying "but I didn't make him do it", he would still be sacked at least, and possibly prosecuted.

Why shouldn't God let them do what they choose to do? He created humans with a rational mind and free will to choose and He sent Messengers to reveal teachings and laws, so if humans reject those teachings so if they make the wrong choices that's on them.

If god was a parent, social services would have taken us into care long ago.

 

[KWED]

That is absolutely correct.

Which necessarily removes free will to do anything else.

I don't know if you know anything about the theory of relativity,
..but it is fairly well known that if somebody travels at a speed approaching that of the speed of light, we get a "time distortion" for want of a better phrase.
Does that phenomenon have anything to do with our free-will?

What on earth does this have to do with god's predetermination or infallible omniscience removing free will?

I mean, what is this mechanism that MAKES us choose what has to be chosen?

The simple fact that, as you have admitted, nothing can happen other than the things god knows will happen, or had willed and decreed will happen.

We DO have a choice

If, as you have admitted, there is only one possible outcome for every event, how can we "choose" a different one?

but God is in a different frame of reference. [ scientific, relativity speak ]

This is meaningless. And internally contradictory, as scientifically speaking, there is no god. We can only consider him philosophically.

 

[Sheldon]

That's what the problem is, it seems..

Your vague cryptic posts are a problem yes, as is your inability to answer any questions that might help explain what one earth you mean by "fixing the past".

I really need a whiteboard or something. I suppose I could upload something but I'll try something easier first.

Past---------------------------------------------------------->Future

The line above represents the passing of time.
The present is somewhere along that line
That is what I mean by fixed.

Yeah, I don't think fixed means what you think it means.

The past and future are not really at the ends of the line.

Is that why put them there for clarity?

From left to right, we have a series of events.
Some are known, and some are not known.

The past is known, the future isn't, for anyone who grasps reality.

See post #2482 also, as that might help.

Already read it, I'll you what I'll take one more stab at this and try bullet points and really simple yes or no questions.

1. Did claim the future is fixed?
2. Do you accept that fixed means it cannot be changed?
3. Do you think past events can be physically altered?

I can't make it any simpler than that for you sorry.