Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[Trailblazer]

IF you could stop a paedophile raping a child one assumes you would. According to your belief a deity exists that could easily stop this, and does nothing. It would be like me letting it happen if I could stop it, and just phoning the police later to punish them, that's the deity you're describing.

Using analogies to compare what a human would/should do to what God would/should do is the the fallacy of false equivalence since God is not equivalent to a human. This is a logical fallacy commonly committed by atheists.

False equivalence is a logical fallacy in which an equivalence is drawn between two subjects based on flawed or false reasoning. This fallacy is categorized as a fallacy of inconsistency.[1] A colloquial expression of false equivalency is "comparing apples and oranges".

This fallacy is committed when one shared trait between two subjects is assumed to show equivalence, especially in order of magnitude, when equivalence is not necessarily the logical result.[2] False equivalence is a common result when an anecdotal similarity is pointed out as equal, but the claim of equivalence doesn't bear scrutiny because the similarity is based on oversimplification or ignorance of additional factors.

False equivalence - Wikipedia

 

[Trailblazer]

No one ever said that God is MAKING me choose the red shirt.

If God knows 100% for sure that I am going to wear the red shirt, am I capable of of choosing to wear a different shirt?

Yes or no is all I need here.

Yes.

 

[Tiberius]

So it's not fixed? But it will happen exactly how God knows it will happen? We are free to choose anything we want but will always make the choice that God knows we will make? Or, some creative forces are at work. Some positive. Some dark and negative, and lots of different things can happen. Our choices do have an effect. But most things seem as if they are totally random.

Huh? I said it WAS fixed.

 

[CG Didymus]

You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that there is a battle of wills going on between what we want to do and what god wants us to do.
That is a complete straw man.
In our minds, we have complete free will and make the choice we "want" from a variety of alternatives. However, this is all merely an illusion. Even before we were aware of the "choices", there was always only one possible outcome.

Religions, like Christianity and probably the Baha'i Faith too, wants a person to seek out and follow God's will. Those Christians feel as though the Holy Spirit is guiding them to make the right choice. Preachers tell that not to follow their own will but to do what God wants them to do... Like give as much time and money to the Church or maybe even drop everything and become a missionary. But, if they "fall" and do something "carnal", they have that little whisper from the Holy Spirit in their ear telling them they screwed up and to repent and get back to following what God wants for them. So don't want to have free will. Free will is a bad thing, because to follow your own desires is against God.

I knew Christians and Baha'is that did this. I was in my twenties when I was with them, so a lot of the selfish desires had to do with getting laid. All my Christian friends did it, and only a few really felt guilty. And some felt super-guilty. Like Jesus supposedly said to think it is like doing it. These people were tortured by their thoughts of love and lust. And, of course, they thought it was the devil tempting them, and to give in to those "evil" desires of the flesh was to turn away from God and to give in to the devil. It was interesting times. But, what I learned was that extreme religious beliefs can sure screw people up.

 

[muhammad_isa]

If God knows 100% for sure that I am going to wear the red shirt, am I capable of of choosing to wear a different shirt?

Yes or no is all I need here.

How does God know anything for sure?
It is because as far as God is concerned, it is as if it has "already happened".
i.e. he knows what we will choose

..so the answer to your question is "Yes".
You can choose whatever shirt you like,
and that will be what God knows 100% for sure

Your question is a loaded question..
It's rather like the
"Could God create a stone so heavy that even He could not lift it?"

You are just being deceitful, imo.

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes.

Really? He is free to choose a different shirt, so if he does choose a different shirt, then God was wrong? Or, was God just pretending to know he was going to choose the other shirt just to mess with him? Or, God tries to nudge and guide humanity to make the right choices but allows them to make the wrong choices. And, if humanity makes too many wrong choices, God just destroys them and starts over? Since it sounds like just a game to him.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Really? He is free to choose a different shirt, so if he does choose a different shirt, then God was wrong?

Yes, he is free to choose any shirt he likes.
Almighty God is never wrong, by definition.

What about this..

The barber in the village shaves everybody that doesn't shave themselves.

It seems quite reasonable, until we consider the plight of the barber. Does he shave himself or not?
If he shaves himself, then due to the statement above, he does NOT shave himself.

It becomes illogical. The statement needs an exception clause.
i.e. except the barber

That is all that is happening here. It is a trick statement.

"If God knows 100% for sure that I am going to wear the red shirt, am I capable of of choosing to wear a different shirt?"

It is putting the cart before the horse

 

[CG Didymus]

Just because God knows what we will do that does not mean the future is fixed. The future is not fixed. It is changing constantly.

If God knows what we will do, then the future is fixed as a future where we will do those things he has foreseen.

So it's not fixed? But it will happen exactly how God knows it will happen? We are free to choose anything we want but will always make the choice that God knows we will make?

Huh? I said it WAS fixed.

I must have meant to include TB's statement in there. I agree with you. If... God knows what choices are going to be made, there is no way people can make a choice that deviates from that. So what's God point. He knows what's going to happen. And everybody makes good and bad choices, and, hopefully, learns from them. But, with religions, the ultimate "right" choice is to believe everything that religion tells you and to do the things that religion tells you are the right things to do and not do what you might want.

 

[Trailblazer]

Predestination and infallible omniscience are two different issues (although the effective outcome is the same, a negation of free will).
Infallible omniscience is not god deciding what we will do, it is making the outcome of our decision inevitable by the inability of his foreknowledge to be wrong.

God's foreknowledge has nothing to do with what we will decide to do. God knows what we will decide to do only because God has foreknowledge but God's foreknowledge has no effect upon what we will decide to do.

Here your man is making the common, fundamental error of conflating our ability to make guesses about future events with gods infallible omniscience.

If you knew, with absolute certainty and a complete inability to be wrong, that I would order chicken for dinner tonight at a restaurant - when I came to order, could I choose beef or fish? No, obviously not, because you cannot be wrong. Do I still have the ability to choose beef or fish? Another no.
So if I cannot choose, and have no ability to choose, where is my free will?

You could choose chicken or beef or fish.
What I know you will choose has nothing to do with what you will choose, just as what God knows has nothing to do with what you will choose.

Knowing something will happen is not what causes it to happen. Human choices and the ensuing actions are what cause things to happen.

Question.—If God has knowledge of an action which will be performed by someone, and it has been written on the Tablet of Fate, is it possible to resist it?

Answer.—The foreknowledge of a thing is not the cause of its realization; for the essential knowledge of God surrounds, in the same way, the realities of things, before as well as after their existence, and it does not become the cause of their existence. It is a perfection of God.......

Therefore, the knowledge of God in the realm of contingency does not produce the forms of the things. On the contrary, it is purified from the past, present and future. It is identical with the reality of the things; it is not the cause of their occurrence........

The mathematicians by astronomical calculations know that at a certain time an eclipse of the moon or the sun will occur. Surely this discovery does not cause the eclipse to take place. This is, of course, only an analogy and not an exact image.
Some Answered Questions, pp. 138-139

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes, he is free to choose any shirt he likes.
Almighty God is never wrong, by definition.

What about this..

The barber in the village shaves everybody that doesn't shave themselves.

It seems quite reasonable, until we consider the plight of the barber. Does he shave himself or not?
If he shaves himself, then due to the statement above, he does NOT shave himself.

It becomes illogical. The statement needs an exception clause.
i.e. except the barber

That is all that is happening here. It is a trick statement.

"If God knows 100% for sure that I am going to wear the red shirt, am I capable of of choosing to wear a different shirt?"

It is putting the cart before the horse

But it's all based on what religions say. They, possibly, have created a God. Maybe not with your religion. But even with Islam, they, I do believe, say that some religions believe in false Gods. So there are man-made Gods in some religions. Then those religions define what this God is. Things like... He is all-powerful. He is all-loving. And, He is all-knowing. I don't know about Islam, but with the Baha'is, they can't prove this God they are talking about is even real. So to non-believers, this God might as well be made up. But, I can see how if a religion is going to believe in a God, you might as well make him all-knowing.

 

[muhammad_isa]

If... God knows what choices are going to be made, there is no way people can make a choice that deviates from that.

That's exactly it "IF".

"if" is a conditional statement.

"IF God knows that you will choose "A", you can't choose "B".
..so what..
"IF" God knows that you will choose "B", you can't choose "A".

Well, you have to choose something
It doesn't mean that you have no choice. It means that the statement is designed to confuse the issue.
IF .. IF .. IF

You can choose whatever you like.

 

[Sheldon]

False equivalence is a common result when an anecdotal similarity is pointed out as equal,

As usual you don't understand the point, or the fallacy, as the comparison is being predicated on the difference, and not as if they are similar.

God is not equivalent to a human.

What an odd thing to tell someone who doesn't believe in any deity? I'm not comparing the commonly held concept of a deity with humans as if they are equal or even similar.

The false equivalence is not fallacious here, as it is entirely the point, if a deity were the same as a human the comparison would be pointless. If a deity with limitless power and knowledge existed, yet allowed all manner of horrors that it could easily stop by will alone, then its morality would be surpassed by that of mere evolved mammals. I'm not surprised you're unwilling to even honestly examine the question though, few theists I've encountered have the courage to hold their beliefs up to that kind of critical scrutiny.

FYI the point is that human morality would be better than a deity here, as most humans would do their best to stop such suffering, but a deity who could stop it by sheer will alone does nothing. Most theists rush to the idiocy of claiming a deity can do whatever it wants and still be moral, though of course they offer naught to support the claim, but then that is how theism works, endless claims and no evidence. They rarely notice they are indirectly justifying terrible acts like paedophilia in this example, as moral.

 

[Sheldon]

Those Christians feel as though the Holy Spirit is guiding them to make the right choice.

I'm pretty sure suicide bombers make pretty much the same claim, to be doing god's will. I'd rather judge behaviour on its merits, and not the subjective feelings of the person committing the act as to how a deity they've imagined feels about it, since we can see all manner of egregiously pernicious acts can result from religious beliefs, not just good actions. Theists on this forum are right now espousing the worst kind of bigotry and homophobia in the belief they are doing what a deity they imagine is real wants them to do.

 

[Tiberius]

Using analogies to compare what a human would/should do to what God would/should do is the the fallacy of false equivalence since God is not equivalent to a human. This is a logical fallacy commonly committed by atheists.

False equivalence is a logical fallacy in which an equivalence is drawn between two subjects based on flawed or false reasoning. This fallacy is categorized as a fallacy of inconsistency.[1] A colloquial expression of false equivalency is "comparing apples and oranges".

This fallacy is committed when one shared trait between two subjects is assumed to show equivalence, especially in order of magnitude, when equivalence is not necessarily the logical result.[2] False equivalence is a common result when an anecdotal similarity is pointed out as equal, but the claim of equivalence doesn't bear scrutiny because the similarity is based on oversimplification or ignorance of additional factors.

False equivalence - Wikipedia

It seems to me that you are using the special pleading fallacy - claiming that we can't use standard reason to apply to God because God is "different", yet there is no evidence for God apart from the non-standard reason you are claiming we need to use.

 

[Tiberius]

Yes.

Then God was wrong, wasn't he?

 

[Tiberius]

How does God know anything for sure?
It is because as far as God is concerned, it is as if it has "already happened".
i.e. he knows what we will choose

..so the answer to your question is "Yes".
You can choose whatever shirt you like,
and that will be what God knows 100% for sure

Your question is a loaded question..
It's rather like the
"Could God create a stone so heavy that even He could not lift it?"

You are just being deceitful, imo.

No I'm not.

Let's say I watch Jurassic Park.

I know 100% for a fact that the lawyer is going to run to the toilet when the T rex attacks. Is he capable of choosing to do something different? No. It's set in stone. He can't change it, and that's how I can know for a fact what he is going to do.

Now, would you please do as I have asked you many times now and pick an argument from your post 2342 and I will tell you why it is not a valid argument.

 

[CG Didymus]

God's foreknowledge has nothing to do with what we will decide to do. God knows what we will decide to do only because God has foreknowledge but God's foreknowledge has no effect upon what we will decide to do.

You could choose chicken or beef or fish.
What I know you will choose has nothing to do with what you will choose, just as what God knows has nothing to do with what you will choose.

Again, as if this God is real and is all-knowing. He sends a messenger that tells the people what the laws are. So God is doing things that have an effect on people's choices. And, usually, the messenger has told the people what the punishment is for breaking those laws. So God has told the people what not to do. God says there will be a punishment. And, God knows who will break those laws.

So now, does he know why those people will break his law? If God knows everything then yes he does. Then, can God send some kind of spiritual inspiration to people? Directly or even indirectly like how Christians believe the Holy Spirit or an angel can do? Or, even if God does it through another person. God sets up a chance meeting with someone that totally changes that other persons life? So why if this God can do those things, and chooses not to, is he not to blame? Or, God can't or doesn't want to guide people. He just let's them make their own choices. Knowing that most of us will make lots of wrong choices?

 

[Trailblazer]

So we can do things that god does not know we will do.

No, we cannot do things that God does not know we will do because God knows everything we will do.

*sigh* Once again, that is not the argument here.
God's infallible omniscience means that we can only do what he knows we will do. We are still making a "choice", but that choice is inevitable. Even though it seems to us that we are making a free choice, there is only oner possible outcome.

We will only do what God knows we will do because God knows everything that we will do, but if we choose to do something different God would have known we were going to choose that instead because God is all-knowing.

No, the choice is not inevitable because what God knows you will choose is not what causes you to choose anything. You determine what you will choose by your own volition.

How does this affect the fact that we can only do what god knows we will do?

We can do what we want to do and God will know that is what we will do because God is all-knowing..
What God knows does not affect our ability to make choices.

Of course there is!
The only events that can happen in this world are the ones that god knows will happen. Nothing can happen in this world that goes does not know will happen. The two are fundamentally connected.

The only events that can happen in this world are the ones that God knows will happen only because God knows everything that will ever happen. However, God's knowing is not what causes anything to happen. NOTHING could ever happen in this world if humans did not choose and make them happen. We will choose to do what God knows we will do only because God knows what we will do. God's knowledge does not cause anything to happen. Human volition and action cause things to happen.

 

[Sheldon]

No, we cannot do things that God does not know we will do because God knows everything we will do.

Is there anything we can do that you believe a deity cannot prevent or stop us doign if it wanted to?

 

[Trailblazer]

So now, does he know why those people will break his law? If God knows everything then yes he does. Then, can God send some kind of spiritual inspiration to people? Directly or even indirectly like how Christians believe the Holy Spirit or an angel can do? Or, even if God does it through another person. God sets up a chance meeting with someone that totally changes that other persons life? So why if this God can do those things, and chooses not to, is he not to blame? Or, God can't or doesn't want to guide people. He just let's them make their own choices. Knowing that most of us will make lots of wrong choices?

God can do whatever He chooses to do but God only does what God chooses to do. That may or may not align with what humans want God to do, and if it does align then God will do what we want Him to do. If not, God will not do what humans want Him to do. God only does what He chooses to do. That comes with being omnipotent since an omnipotent God does not have to do anything He does not choose to do.

“Say: He ordaineth as He pleaseth, by virtue of His sovereignty, and doeth whatsoever He willeth at His own behest. He shall not be asked of the things it pleaseth Him to ordain. He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p, 284

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.” Gleanings, p. 209

“God witnesseth that there is no God but Him, the Gracious, the Best-Beloved. All grace and bounty are His. To whomsoever He will He giveth whatsoever is His wish. He, verily, is the All-Powerful, the Almighty, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.” Gleanings, p. 73

To paraphrase Baha’u’llah and capture the meaning of the verses as closely as possible:

• The world and all that is in it is held firmly in the grasp of God’s Will. God does whatever He chooses to do, according to His will.
• God bestows His favor upon whoever He wills and withholds His favor from who He wills.
• God gives what He wishes to give to whoever He wishes to give it.
• God ordains what He pleases by virtue of His sovereignty and He does whatever He wills at His own behest. We are not to ask God of the things He chooses to ordain.

The upshot of all this is that it won’t do us any good to fight against the Will of God because we cannot override it since we are not omnipotent. We can only ask for what we want in prayer and sometimes (if our request is aligned with God’s will) we will get it, sometimes not

Sometimes God works through a person such as when God sets up a chance meeting with someone that totally changes that other persons life, but God does not do that for everyone, only those He chooses to do it for.

“No God is there but Him. All creation and its empire are His. He bestoweth His gifts on whom He will, and from whom He will He withholdeth them. He is the Great Giver, the Most Generous, the Benevolent.” Gleanings, p. 278

Just because God can do those things and chooses not to that does not mean God is to blame. God cannot be blameworthy since an infallible God cannot ever make a mistake.

God has promised through Baha'u'llah that He will guide people who make an effort.

““Whoso maketh efforts for Us,” he shall enjoy the blessings conferred by the words: “In Our Ways shall We assuredly guide him.””
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 266-267

But Baha'u'llah also said that some people rebel against His Messengers

"Some were guided by the Light of God, gained admittance into the court of His presence, and quaffed, from the hand of resignation, the waters of everlasting life, and were accounted of them that have truly recognized and believed in Him. Others rebelled against Him, and rejected the signs of God, the Most Powerful, the Almighty, the All-Wise.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 145

God will not guide those who rebel because we all have free will to choose and God does not wish to violate our free will, our right to choose. Yes, God will let people them make their own choices, knowing that most people will make lots of wrong choices.

From my viewpoint, you have rebelled against God by rejecting all His Messengers, and you cannot blame God for that since you have had many more opportunities than most people to recognize the Baha'i Faith. Some people might have legitimate complaints since they never heard of Baha'u'llah and they can blame the Baha'is for that, but God will not hold those people accountable for believing in Baha'u'llah as long as they lived a moral life.