Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[Trailblazer]

You miss the fact that once God KNOWS which one I will wear, then I can't do anything to alter it.

You can alter your choice right up until the time that you choose the shirt and put it on and wear it.
What God knows you will choose does not affect your choice in any way.
God knows which shirt you will choose to wear because God is all-knowing.

 

[Trailblazer]

4.God exists in the heart , religion exists in the mind

God is real as love

Welcome to the forum.
That God exists in the heart and religion exists in the mind is in accordance with my beliefs.

“That the heart is the throne, in which the Revelation of God the All-Merciful is centered, is attested by the holy utterances which We have formerly revealed.

Among them is this saying: “Earth and heaven cannot contain Me; what can alone contain Me is the heart of him that believeth in Me, and is faithful to My Cause.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 186

 

[Subduction Zone]

You can alter your choice right up until the time that you choose the shirt and put it on and wear it.
What God knows you will choose does not affect your choice in any way.
God knows which shirt you will choose to wear because God is all-knowing.

Is God omnipotent too?

 

[muhammad_isa]

You miss the fact that once God KNOWS which one I will wear, then I can't do anything to alter it.

I'm not missing anything.
You are putting the cart before the horse.

You are suggesting that God knows you will choose the red shirt,
for instance .. it could just as easily be the blue shirt.

It is not how you are claiming.
A better way to put it, is that if God knows 100% that you will choose the red shirt, it is because you will "FREELY CHOOSE" the red shirt.
It is not that you CAN'T choose the blue shirt. It is that you don't WANT to choose the blue shirt.
If you HAD wanted to choose the blue shirt, then God would have known that.

It is not that you can't alter it. Whatever you WANT to choose, that's what God knows.
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I've explained all this already to @Sheldon and @KWED

The future is fixed, as you say, with what God knows.
It's not that God fixes it. WE fix it by our choice.
..just as the past is fixed by our choice.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I'm not missing anything.
You are putting the cart before the horse.

You are suggesting that God knows you will choose the red shirt,
for instance .. it could just as easily be the blue shirt.

It is not how you are claiming.
A better way to put it, is that if God knows 100% that you will choose the red shirt, it is because you will "FREELY CHOOSE" the red shirt.
It is not that you CAN'T choose the blue shirt. It is that you don't WANT to choose the blue shirt.
If you HAD wanted to choose the blue shirt, then God would have known that.

It is not that you can't alter it. Whatever you WANT to choose, that's what God knows.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've explained all this already to @Sheldon and @KWED

The future is fixed, as you say, with what God knows.
It's not that God fixes it. WE fix it by our choice.
..just as the past is fixed by our choice.

I will ask the same question that I asked another: Is God omnipotent too?

 

[muhammad_isa]

I will ask the same question that I asked another: Is God omnipotent too?

Yes. Almighty God is able to do all things.
That doesn't include logical fallacies
i.e. the logically impossible.

A miracle is not a logical impossibility.
It simply does not obey natural [ God made ] laws.

 

[rational experiences]

Welcome to the forum.
That God exists in the heart and religion exists in the mind is in accordance with my beliefs.

“That the heart is the throne, in which the Revelation of God the All-Merciful is centered, is attested by the holy utterances which We have formerly revealed.

Among them is this saying: “Earth and heaven cannot contain Me; what can alone contain Me is the heart of him that believeth in Me, and is faithful to My Cause.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 186

Which in man's thinking about creation is theorising itself.

Natural man's thought scientific first observation about natural o earths cause is a heart. A core body supporting the body O stone. Two bodies in one.

So we said earth one body like a human has a heart and body.

Love and respect its nature.

God soul movement in heavens same status a teaching.

Only humans can love by our reverence of what keeps life as safe as possible.

I learnt earth first state before science pyramid destroyed all life was stable.

Our teaching about what humans did to gods body. Memory satanic angel.

One atmosphere was first... no seasons earth mass cooling not reactive.

History gods earth first form supporting first life very different to sacrificed new life inheritance.

Men of science removed it.

Introduced reactive thunder lightning UFO ark storms in heavens and tectonic carpenter earthquakes volcanic eruptions.

Built it men said tectonic carpenter confessed. Science did it he said...earth was nearly destroyed by science.

God once cared for us.

We were taught man changed planet earths life support.

A known human first memory.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yes. Almighty God is able to do all things.
That doesn't include logical fallacies
i.e. the logically impossible.

A miracle is not a logical impossibility.
It simply does not obey natural [ God made ] laws.

LOL! How convenient. Too bad that you do not appear to have any reliable evidence for God. Until you demonstrate that God has these traits you are making a special pleading fallacy.

By the way, God cannot both allow free choice and be omnipotent and omniscient. That is a self contradiction. Do you have anything besides logical fallacies to support the existence of a God?

 

[rational experiences]

Men should ask what type of God are you looking for as a scientist ego status.

To what defined god is a human spiritually inferring to?

As all words are inference.

If you say reference in science it says a category.

In spirit God is not categorised...as its highest history owns no scientific status as science in quotients.

The actual teaching.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I mean, what is this mechanism that MAKES us choose what has to be chosen?

We choose according to what we have learnt in childhood and later, parental training, termed "Samskaras" in Hindi/Sanskrit; education, religion, culture and our worldly experiences.

 

[Trailblazer]

This is weird to me... That God created people to know and to love him, but doesn't give them enough knowledge and capacity for most of the people to know and to love him.

I believe that God does give everyone the capacity and the knowledge to know and love Him. Not everyone is able to use their capacity for various reasons but many people do use it.

That he sends messengers that bring a message that he, God, knows will be misunderstood, misinterpreted, and, because God, until recently, let's people write it, no one can be sure what the true, original message ever was. And even when he has his messenger write the message himself, it is still questionable for most people whether it truly came from an all-knowing God. That God let's things get out of hand and then finally he does intervene by sending a new messenger but still makes things so ambiguous that most people will reject the messenger.

Not everyone will recognize and believe in the new Messenger, few people will. It is always that way when a new Messenger and in the first centuries. Most people reject the new Messenger since most people are mired in the older religions and even those who are not religious are unduly affected by the older religions such they they believe that the new religion is just more of the same even though it is different.

And God knows this and keeps doing it, and then punishes people for not listening to his messenger? And, since he knew this is what would happen, why create the universe and the people just to watch it all play out exactly how he knew it would? But other than that... nothing weird about it.

Of course God knew this would happen, God knows everything, but God has no reason to interfere with the process.
I don't know that God is going to punish anyone for not recognizing His new Messenger but rather people punish themselves by rejecting Him.

“He who shall accept and believe, shall receive his reward; and he who shall turn away, shall receive none other than his own punishment.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 339

 

[rational experiences]

I believe that God does give everyone the capacity and the knowledge to know and love Him. Not everyone is able to use their capacity for various reasons but many people do use it.

Not everyone will recognize and believe in the new Messenger, few people will. It is always that way when a new Messenger and in the first centuries. Most people reject the new Messenger since most people are mired in the older religions and even those who are not religious are unduly affected by the older religions such they they believe that the new religion is just more of the same even though it is different.

Of course God knew this would happen, God knows everything, but God has no reason to interfere with the process.
I don't know that God is going to punish anyone for not recognizing His new Messenger but rather people punish themselves by rejecting Him.

“He who shall accept and believe, shall receive his reward; and he who shall turn away, shall receive none other than his own punishment.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 339

In our life.

Nature first spirit entered.
Animals.
Humans parents equal world family member communal

Manifest from out of the eternal owned body into bio organism body. Lower life form human. Inherited.

Live and die as we don't belong.

Scientist adult man he him his changed the origin state God....once a non entity. No words no names no teaching.

Gods are fallen burnt eternal angels sitting in space the teaching. Had all left eternal body fell into burning are now holy cooled.

The spirit deity eternal being when heavens filled in space left also. Leaving origin self still intact.

Entered their creation.

We know.

Man wanted to go back. Wanted time shifted. Built machine.

Time in science is gases burning.

Men of science theories I want gases to stop burning. Time to shift. Impossible.

Realised.

We cannot personally go back into the eternal.

Father the adult man scientist encoded his man science warning in the heavens for us. He him his referred.

We live get recorded we die as the eternal human ended life form. We leave a memory record a human but one as one self is in the eternal after.

Human enduring the memory of all things evidence. Enters into the past. Reasoning time by sun shifts it's mass into a smaller body until light no longer exists on God earth.

We are in fact by time moving into the past as the sun in its past was gigantic.

Please do not ignore our truth. Why we know we are only entering into a past.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't know about Baha'is, but my Christian friends do believe God can change "sinners". God can touch a person's heart and get them to turn to him. But, even they, the Christians, have a hard time why God doesn't change the hearts of all people. Why he let's some continue in their selfish, evil ways knowing that, according to the beliefs of those Christians, that God is going to cast them into hell.

That is a Christian belief. I do not believe that God changes people like that. People have to choose to turn to God, God does not come running after them as some Christian songs say. The songs sound nice but I don't think that is the reality.

Well, maybe I do know a little of what Baha'is believe. Could you comment on the afterlife? A person that has done all sorts of bad things and has rejected God in this life, is then far from God in the spiritual world? Do they have the opportunity to change and right the wrongs they committed? And, since most people aren't all that good or bad, where do they end up in the spiritual world? And can they do things to advance and get closer to God? If not, then I'd say that concept of God sucks. One chance in life... And their soul/spirit is judged for the choices their not-to-bright human body decided to do?

I don't know if we will be judged by God the way that Christians believe but I think we will have a life review.

“It is clear and evident that all men shall, after their physical death, estimate the worth of their deeds, and realize all that their hands have wrought. I swear by the Day Star that shineth above the horizon of Divine power! They that are the followers of the one true God shall, the moment they depart out of this life, experience such joy and gladness as would be impossible to describe, while they that live in error shall be seized with such fear and trembling, and shall be filled with such consternation, as nothing can exceed. Well is it with him that hath quaffed the choice and incorruptible wine of faith through the gracious favor and the manifold bounties of Him Who is the Lord of all Faiths…”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 169-171

I would say that person would be far from God in the spiritual world if they were far from God in this life but it is possible that through the prayers of others and the mercy of God that God can draw them closer to Him in the afterlife.

Baha’is do not believe that heaven is a geographical location, but a Baha’i once asked the Guardian of the Baha’i Faith how to get to heaven, and here was his answer...

"To 'get to heaven' as you say is dependent on two things--faith in the Manifestation of God in His Day, in other words in this age in Bahá'u'lláh; and good deeds, in other words living to the best of our ability a noble life and doing unto others as we would be done by. But we must always remember that our existence and everything we have or ever will have is dependent upon the mercy of God and His bounty, and therefore He can accept into His heaven, which is really nearness to Him, even the lowliest if He pleases. We always have the hope of receiving His mercy if we reach out for it."

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, January 12, 1957)

Lights of Guidance (second part): A Bahá'í Reference File

 

[rational experiences]

In our life.

Nature first spirit entered.
Animals.
Humans parents equal world family member communal

Manifest from out of the eternal owned body into bio organism body. Lower life form human. Inherited.

Live and die as we don't belong.

Scientist adult man he him his changed the origin state God....once a non entity. No words no names no teaching.

Gods are fallen burnt eternal angels sitting in space the teaching. Had all left eternal body fell into burning are now holy cooled.

The spirit deity eternal being when heavens filled in space left also. Leaving origin self still intact.

Entered their creation.

We know.

Man wanted to go back. Wanted time shifted. Built machine.

Time in science is gases burning.

Men of science theories I want gases to stop burning. Time to shift. Impossible.

Realised.

We cannot personally go back into the eternal.

Father the adult man scientist encoded his man science warning in the heavens for us. He him his referred.

We live get recorded we die as the eternal human ended life form. We leave a memory record a human but one as one self is in the eternal after.

Human enduring the memory of all things evidence. Enters into the past. Reasoning time by sun shifts it's mass into a smaller body until light no longer exists on God earth.

We are in fact by time moving into the past as the sun in its past was gigantic.

Please do not ignore our truth. Why we know we are only entering into a past.

Another way of saying we live groundhog Day until we realise our own truth.

Just two humans living multi billion experiences in one moment.

 

[Trailblazer]

Really? He is free to choose a different shirt, so if he does choose a different shirt, then God was wrong? Or, was God just pretending to know he was going to choose the other shirt just to mess with him?

He can choose any shirt he wants to choose. God always knew what shirt would be chosen. God is never wrong because God is infallible.

Or, God tries to nudge and guide humanity to make the right choices but allows them to make the wrong choices. And, if humanity makes too many wrong choices, God just destroys them and starts over? Since it sounds like just a game to him.

No, God never destroys humans and starts over although He could if He wanted to.

“Their belief or disbelief in My Cause can neither profit nor harm Me. We summon them wholly for the sake of God. He, verily, can afford to dispense with all creatures.” Gleanings, p. 85

 

[rational experiences]

That is a Christian belief. I do not believe that God changes people like that. People have to choose to turn to God, God does not come running after them as some Christian songs say. The songs sound nice but I don't think that is the reality.

I don't know if we will be judged by God the way that Christians believe but I think we will have a life review.

“It is clear and evident that all men shall, after their physical death, estimate the worth of their deeds, and realize all that their hands have wrought. I swear by the Day Star that shineth above the horizon of Divine power! They that are the followers of the one true God shall, the moment they depart out of this life, experience such joy and gladness as would be impossible to describe, while they that live in error shall be seized with such fear and trembling, and shall be filled with such consternation, as nothing can exceed. Well is it with him that hath quaffed the choice and incorruptible wine of faith through the gracious favor and the manifold bounties of Him Who is the Lord of all Faiths…”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 169-171

I would say that person would be far from God in the spiritual world if they were far from God in this life but it is possible that through the prayers of others and the mercy of God that God can draw them closer to Him in the afterlife.

Baha’is do not believe that heaven is a geographical location, but a Baha’i once asked the Guardian of the Baha’i Faith how to get to heaven, and here was his answer...

"To 'get to heaven' as you say is dependent on two things--faith in the Manifestation of God in His Day, in other words in this age in Bahá'u'lláh; and good deeds, in other words living to the best of our ability a noble life and doing unto others as we would be done by. But we must always remember that our existence and everything we have or ever will have is dependent upon the mercy of God and His bounty, and therefore He can accept into His heaven, which is really nearness to Him, even the lowliest if He pleases. We always have the hope of receiving His mercy if we reach out for it."

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, January 12, 1957)

Lights of Guidance (second part): A Bahá'í Reference File

The healing truth.

Evaporation is a natural law.

Man introduced earths unsealing releases increased radiation himself

Evaporation increases.

Our spirit life support oxygenated water flies off. We realise yet pressure change was bringing it back down. Raining also returns it.

Suddenly a human is irradiated like a cancer patient. Bad cells destroyed. Increased oxygenated water returns human healed.

A known medical human aware spirit teaching. Medical science tried to emulate the effect.

No teaching about nuclear science.

Nuclear theists argue. They are not imposing natural environmental effects first. Their thesis cosmic first. Spiritual human medical healer advice not science is reality.

The teaching about gods heavens father human memory teaching. How a sick nasty human can be healed the same as living innocence had.

Taught so you would not feel betrayed by being innocent spiritual yet suffering and dying seeing an evil minded person heal.

Hence evil is not what Satanists believe is correct as satanists just human... practicing evil against other humans by choice and just human. Ignored being taught.

 

[Trailblazer]

I must have meant to include TB's statement in there. I agree with you. If... God knows what choices are going to be made, there is no way people can make a choice that deviates from that. So what's God point. He knows what's going to happen. And everybody makes good and bad choices, and, hopefully, learns from them. But, with religions, the ultimate "right" choice is to believe everything that religion tells you and to do the things that religion tells you are the right things to do and not do what you might want.

We will make the choice that God knows we will make only because God knows what choice we will make, but we are free to choose whatever we want to. God's all-encompassing knowledge does not constrain us in any way, it is simple an attribute of God.

God knows what is going to happen because God has foreknowledge but God does not cause anything to happen. We cause things to happen by making choices and acting on them.

 

[Tiberius]

Two words taught by the human teacher.

Teacher status holy word user.

Natural. Status all laws first.
AI artificial a cause effect.
Science says I can artificially cause natural to change and the science law caused then an effect is witnessed.

Lying says natural did it.

Then argues natural did not do it to itself design by thinker human not any law cosmic did it.

Geez says science lucky to still be alive. Better stop lying before everything changes from natural into artificial as I am not owner of anything I conjure.

Alien thesis equals all things I quote equals the alien only first.

If you want me to answer, you're actually going to need to write something that makes sense.

This is gibberish.

 

[Tiberius]

God knows 100% for sure that you will wear the red shirt but only if red is the color you will choose to wear.

If you had chosen to wear the blue shirt God would have known 100% for sure that you would wear the blue shirt.

God never claimed that you would wear a red shirt but God knew what color shirt you would wear, which would be the same color shirt that you chose to wear.

That's utterly meaningless.

I might as well claim that I know what you are going to do tomorrow. And if you do somethning different, well, I knew you were going to do that as well.

 

[Tiberius]

Who is using the special pleading fallacy is all a matter of perspective.

I'm not the one who has to rely on things that are unfalsifiable to make my point...