Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[KWED]

Yes, I have no problem with that.. it's called experience I would say. There would be a reason why we choose things. That doesn't mean that we aren't free to choose.
You are merely 'tinkering' with the definition of free-will.

It is not my "tinkering". This is generally accepted. There is no such thing as absolute free will.

However, the issue here is whether there can be any practical free will under an infallibly omniscient god who wills and decrees the outcome of all events. The logical answer is "no".

 

[Sheldon]

That is the same as saying it is blank.
The future is a series of events, that are not known.

No it isn't, there is nothing to know yet. You're just making up imaginary claims without even the pretence of evidence, but look who I'm telling.

 

[KWED]

No, no, no .. you do NOT know what you will choose

WTF are you on about?
It is god who knows this. Obviously, we don't.
Please try and keep up.

..and even if you did, it does not follow that you don't WANT to choose what you apparently 'have to' .

Erm, that's the point. Of course you "want" to chose what you "decide" to choose. That is the illusion of free will. But that "choice" was inevitable, regardless of whether you did or might have wanted to make it anyway.

 

[Sheldon]

I don't know if you know anything about the theory of relativity,
..but it is fairly well known that if somebody travels at a speed approaching that of the speed of light, we get a "time distortion" for want of a better phrase.

If you're going to rip off Einstein you might want to check if travelling at that speed is possible in reality. You are doing here what you always do with your theistic beliefs, you think because you can imagine it, that this makes it somehow real, but it doesn't.

 

[KWED]

I'm coming to the conclusion, that you are trolling

Physician, heal thyself!

"If the past is fixed, then we demonstrably cannot change it, thus free will is negated"
The above is not true .. would you agree?

How can choices made today affect what happened yesterday?

 

[muhammad_isa]

If, as you have admitted, there is only one possible outcome for every event, how can we "choose" a different one?

No, sorry .
You are ignoring my main point.

An agent is free to do otherwise when he would have done otherwise had he WANTED to do otherwise

..so the question needs to be asked
"When choosing this 'one outcome', does the agent WANT to choose something different?"

The answer is No! If he did, then that wouldn't be what God knew.

Come on, you know it makes sense

 

[muhammad_isa]

If you're going to rip off Einstein you might want to check if travelling at that speed is possible in reality.

Oh boy! You aren't challenging Einstein's theory of special relativity now .. are you??
It really doesn't matter if it's possible to travel at the speed of light.
We can observe..

8 Ways You Can See Einstein's Theory of Relativity in Real Life

 

[KWED]

If you can't accept that we make choices freely, and want to complicate the issue by suggesting that we only APPEAR to be making choices but in reality we have no choice at all, then you are wasting both of our time

That is what everything points to (by degrees), whether it is theologically or evidentially .
You simply cannot have a fixed future and free will, and you cannot have free will without the influence of prior events.

Whichever way you look at it, free will is either limited or absent.

 

[Sheldon]

I'm coming to the conclusion, that you are trolling

Physician, heal thyself!

I know right, you have to laugh. Then I've got someone telling a belief they cannot "prove" is not an assumption, and asking me if I speak English, and suggesting I read a dictionary.

I used to be a fan of irony, but I think it's causing some sort of sensory overload now.

 

[KWED]

No, sorry .
You are ignoring my main point.

An agent is free to do otherwise when he would have done otherwise had he WANTED to do otherwise

..so the question needs to be asked
"When choosing this 'one outcome', does the agent WANT to choose something different?"

The answer is No! If he did, then that wouldn't be what God knew.

Come on, you know it makes sense

You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that there is a battle of wills going on between what we want to do and what god wants us to do.
That is a complete straw man.
In our minds, we have complete free will and make the choice we "want" from a variety of alternatives. However, this is all merely an illusion. Even before we were aware of the "choices", there was always only one possible outcome.

 

[KWED]

The future is a series of events. Most people imagine the future as "blank", until it is "filled in". Whereas the past we perceive as "already being filled in".

They are both a series of events that are being "fixed" by something .. no?
In reality, the future is not blank, it is just not known.
If it was blank, then the planet must have exploded, or something.

Sorry, but I'm failing to see "science and Einstein" in any of this. Sounds more like opinion.

 

[KWED]

No, we don't.
Assume that there is no God, the argument is still valid.

By what means is the future fixed without god?

This has nothing to do with my argument.
It is not about what we know or don't know.

Erm, "omniscient" means "knowing everything".
Please do try and keep up. It's spoiling it for everyone else.

 

[KWED]

That is the same as saying it is blank.
The future is a series of events, that are not known.

The future is a series of events that have not yet occurred - which is why they are not known.
"Blank" and "not known" are synonymous in this context.

 

[KWED]

Well..
..clearly you don't understand time as a nuclear physicist does.

Why would a nuclear physicist necessarily have a better understanding of time than anyone else?
And who is to say what time actually is?
Sounds like a rather feeble appeal to authority imho.

 

[Sheldon]

You aren't challenging Einstein's theory of special relativity now .. are you??

Correct, I'm not, as I have said many times that accepted scientific theories explain and evidence scientific facts, like the theory of species evolution. It is theists who generally try to cherry pick which scientific they accept, based on whether they contradict their religious dogma or doctrine.

You seem to have missed answering my questions in all the
excitement...not to worry here they are again...

1. Do you claim the future is fixed?
2. Do you accept that fixed means it cannot be changed?
3. Do you think past events can be physically altered in reality?

I can't make it any simpler than that for you sorry.

 

[muhammad_isa]

1. Do you claim the future is fixed?

Yes, but not in the way that you're probably thinking.
i.e. like a fraudster "fixing" a race

2. Do you accept that fixed means it cannot be changed?

That's right.

3. Do you think past events can be physically altered in reality?

No, I don't.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Why would a nuclear physicist necessarily have a better understanding of time than anyone else?

If you don't know the answer to that question, I respectfully end
our exchange.
Bye

 

[Sheldon]

1. Do you claim the future is fixed?

Yes.....

2. Do you accept that fixed means it cannot be changed?

That's right.

Then ipso facto your belief negates free will, or indeed any autonomy at all.

3. Do you think past events can be physically altered in reality?

No, I don't.

Good, because that was far from clear in your posts.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Sheldon: Do you accept that fixed means it cannot be changed?
Me: Yes
Sheldon:Then ipso facto your belief negates free will, or indeed any autonomy at all.

I shall let you go now.
I have spent several posts explaining my understanding.
You think it's wrong .. that's your prerrogative.

Sheldon: it was your claim that "the future must be fixed." If you can't see what that means for the misnomer of free will, then that's not my problem at all. I don't believe free will exists anyway.

OK .. Bye

 

[Tiberius]

You will choose the red shirt because you chose to wear a red shirt.
God does not cause you to choose red the shirt by knowing you will choose the red shirt.

The future is not fixed because what God knows changes as we make choices. God knew we would make those choices because God is all-knowing, but God's knowledge is not what caused us to make the choices.

The only reason we will do what God knows we will do is because God knows everything that we will do.

What God knows is not what causes anything to happen. That is what you just do not seem to be able to grasp.

No one ever said that God is MAKING me choose the red shirt.

If God knows 100% for sure that I am going to wear the red shirt, am I capable of of choosing to wear a different shirt?

Yes or no is all I need here.