Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[CG Didymus]

Before the time of Jesus, how different was the God of Israel to the God's of other people? The God's needed animals to be sacrificed to them. They helped them in battles. Ordered them to kill other people that believed in different Gods. They demanded obedience to the rules and people were stoned to death for disobeying.

No, it is not what the one true God actually did. It is what men wrote about God, anthropomorphism..

Yes, that is the problem. By what was written about God he is no different than the mythological Gods of other people. So, what is the difference than to say that the God of the Greeks is the real God, but the stories about him were written by men and not what the Greek God actually did?

And then we have the example of Hinduism. A true, God-revealed religion according to Baha'is, but are the stories of the many Gods true? No. So, there is always some adjustments that need to be made to the beliefs of the older religions. What is the easiest why to explain why those older religions got things wrong? To me, it is to say that the people made them up. They made up the stories about the Gods. And sometimes they borrowed myths and legends from other people and incorporated them into their own beliefs. But the purpose of the Gods and the religions were all pretty much the same... give people something to believe in that explained why things are like they are. And, of course, give them rules to obey.

Material happiness is not the SAME as spiritual happiness. Material happiness is just an illusion and only lasts until we die, and then it is gone forever.

Problem... I agree with Baha'is, God is not a trinity. But how many Christians get their spiritual happiness from believing the the false notion of God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit?

Same thing with a Hindu that worships one of the many Gods of Hinduism and believes by doing certain things he will reincarnate into a better situation? His spiritual happiness comes from believing this, but is it true? So, can spiritual happiness come about by believing something that is not real? I'd say, "yes".

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, that is the problem. By what was written about God he is no different than the mythological Gods of other people. So, what is the difference than to say that the God of the Greeks is the real God, but the stories about him were written by men and not what the Greek God actually did?

I would say that the difference is that the God written about in the Old Testament is the one true God whereas the God of the Greeks was a god that men made up.

And then we have the example of Hinduism. A true, God-revealed religion according to Baha'is, but are the stories of the many Gods true? No. So, there is always some adjustments that need to be made to the beliefs of the older religions. What is the easiest why to explain why those older religions got things wrong? To me, it is to say that the people made them up. They made up the stories about the Gods.

That is one way to explain why they got things wrong, but the other way is to realize that they never had any original scriptures written by a Messenger of God and what scriptures they did have were written many decades or even centuries after that Messenger lived and it was misinterpreted by the followers of those religions.

And sometimes they borrowed myths and legends from other people and incorporated them into their own beliefs. But the purpose of the Gods and the religions were all pretty much the same... give people something to believe in that explained why things are like they are. And, of course, give them rules to obey.

I can agree that they probably borrowed legends and myths and that the purpose was what you said it was.

Problem... I agree with Baha'is, God is not a trinity. But how many Christians get their spiritual happiness from believing the the false notion of God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit?

Same thing with a Hindu that worships one of the many Gods of Hinduism and believes by doing certain things he will reincarnate into a better situation? His spiritual happiness comes from believing this, but is it true? So, can spiritual happiness come about by believing something that is not real? I'd say, "yes".

I do not believe that the spiritual happiness of a Hindu is derived from believing in the many Gods of Hinduism and by doing certain things he will reincarnate into a better situation. I also do not believe that is true, since I do not believe in reincarnation.

It was never intended that the Christians derive their spiritual happiness from the Trinity belief, that is just a man-made doctrine of the Church. Jesus told Christians how to attain spiritual happiness, which is essentially the same as what Baha'u'llah wrote. Look at the similarities.

John 12:24-26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

“The world is but a show, vain and empty, a mere nothing, bearing the semblance of reality. Set not your affections upon it. Break not the bond that uniteth you with your Creator, and be not of those that have erred and strayed from His ways. Verily I say, the world is like the vapor in a desert, which the thirsty dreameth to be water and striveth after it with all his might, until when he cometh unto it, he findeth it to be mere illusion.” Gleanings, pp. 328-329

Matthew 6:19-21 Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

“The peoples of the world are fast asleep. Were they to wake from their slumber, they would hasten with eagerness unto God, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. They would cast away everything they possess, be it all the treasures of the earth, that their Lord may remember them to the extent of addressing to them but one word.” Gleanings, p. 137

“Place not thy reliance on thy treasures. Put thy whole confidence in the grace of God, thy Lord. Let Him be thy trust in whatever thou doest, and be of them that have submitted themselves to His Will. Let Him be thy helper and enrich thyself with His treasures, for with Him are the treasuries of the heavens and of the earth.” Gleanings, pp.234-235

Matthew 7:24-27 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

“For every one of you his paramount duty is to choose for himself that on which no other may infringe and none usurp from him. Such a thing—and to this the Almighty is My witness—is the love of God, could ye but perceive it.

Build ye for yourselves such houses as the rain and floods can never destroy, which shall protect you from the changes and chances of this life. This is the instruction of Him Whom the world hath wronged and forsaken.” Gleanings, p. 261

“O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain.” Gleanings, p. 329

 

[Hidingfromyou]

Make-believe has no power but the one true God is all-powerful, although He chooses to use that power at His own discretion.

That's your make-believe.

 

[Hidingfromyou]

But you will never get the same evidence for Thor. In fact, there is no evidence for Thor, but there is evidence for the one true God.

Thor? Lighting and storms = evidence for Thor.

There's no evidence for the deity you believe in.

 

[Tiberius]

I don't need to.
I am aware that time dilation actually occurs.

It doesn't take much imagination to see that as we approach infinity,
[speed of light springs to mind], time dilation becomes greatly magnified.

And time dilation still doesn't allow for what you're claiming it does, as I explained in post 3732.

 

[Tiberius]

Because humans are responsible for themselves and other humans.

And why shouldn't I say that children are responsible for themselves and other children?

And why is God not responsible for the life he creates?

 

[Tiberius]

But you will never get the same evidence for Thor. In fact, there is no evidence for Thor, but there is evidence for the one true God.

The movies, comics and an ancient religious belief beg to differ.

 

[Tiberius]

That was not intended to be part of any dialogue. I just posted what I found on a website because I found it informative.

Your intentions are irrelevant. What you DO is what's important.

Perhaps you've heard of the old saying, "Actions speak louder than words"?

 

[Tiberius]

That God exists and sent Messengers such as Baha’u’llah.

Except you can't actually show that this is objectively true, can you?

No, there is not, not according to the definition of verifiable evidence.

So if there's no verifiable evidence that Mr B is a messenger from God, how can you claim it's OBJECTIVELY true that he is a messenger from God?

No, never, for obvious reasons that I see no need to repeat again.

It appears that I DO need to repeat it again.

If a bunch of people do their own investigations of something that is objectively true, they will all reach the same conclusions.

Both science and religion are based upon reality. Science deals with the material reality and religion deals with spiritual reality.

There is no evidence for any spiritual reality. The only "evidence" for it comes from a method of study which has not shown itself to be a reliable method of finding accurate information.

It does not show it to you, but who cares? What is obvious to most people in the world completely eludes atheists.

It was once obvious that a heavy object would fall faster than a light object, and that was wrong. Your appeals to gut feeling are not convincing.

The fact that you can't get agreement about religion is strong evidence that people all think and process evidence differently. It is incredible that you cannot understand something that simple, but you cannot understand it because you do not try to understand it and your confirmation bias prevents you from understanding it.

Your claim fails.

People do not process the evidence for the speed of light differently and get different results.

People do not process the evidence for the average weight of a bull African elephant differently and get different results.

People do not process the evidence for the the average distance between the Earth and the Sun differently and get different results.


People do not process the evidence for the chemical composition of pure water differently and get different results.

And yet you must claim that the DO in order to hold your position that religion can be of any use at all. The fact people reach different conclusions about religion is evidence that religion is bunk, because there are countless examples of people all agreeing completely about what the evidence says. Your attempts to explain why it's magically different for religion fail utterly.

If something is objective, it has correspondence with reality. Objective truth is something that is true for everyone, whether they agree with it or not. At one time this was simply called “truth.”
What is objective truth? | GotQuestions.org

And you can't show that your religious beliefs have any such correspondence with reality.

Don't feel bad. No other religion can do it either.

 

[muhammad_isa]

And time dilation still doesn't allow for what you're claiming it does, as I explained in post 3732.

What, the information from one can not travel to the other faster than the speed of light?

No, that is fallacious. It makes no difference.
If G-d's frame of reference approached the speed of light, it is as if all events of the other are simultaneous.

 

[Tiberius]

All humans are fallible so sometimes we make mistakes and we do not always realize it until later and maybe we never realize it.
That’s life.

So, if there's always a possibility for a mistake, how can we claim to know that what we have concluded is objectively true?

I cannot show it to you; you have to figure it out for yourself, or not. But as long as you are obsessed with this IDEA of objective truth, you will never come to realize that there is no such thing as objective truth, there is just truth.

If something is objective, it has correspondence with reality. Objective truth is something that is true for everyone, whether they agree with it or not. At one time this was simply called “truth.”
What is objective truth? | GotQuestions.org

So there's no such thing as something which is true for everyone?

It is true for everyone that I am sitting in a chair at the moment. No one can disagree with that without being wrong, isn't that right?

Material happiness is not the SAME as spiritual happiness. Material happiness is just an illusion and only lasts until we die, and then it is gone forever.

“The world is but a show, vain and empty, a mere nothing, bearing the semblance of reality. Set not your affections upon it. Break not the bond that uniteth you with your Creator, and be not of those that have erred and strayed from His ways. Verily I say, the world is like the vapor in a desert, which the thirsty dreameth to be water and striveth after it with all his might, until when he cometh unto it, he findeth it to be mere illusion.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 328-329

Matthew 6:19-21 Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Ah yes, here we go with the, "Oh, but that doesn't count!" excuses...

Religion is different than science so it is held to a different standard.

Anything that claims to describe reality should be held to the SAME standard - specifically, that what they describe actually corresponds to reality.

You continue to conflate science and religion. You are completely illogical and there is nothing I can do about that. It is hopeless trying to reason with you.

Scientific facts are proven so of course people are going to agree. Nobody can prove that Jesus was sent by God so after over 2000 years only one third of the world population are Christians. Any rational person could figure out why all people are not going to agree on one religion, but how many people agree that it is true has NOTHING to do with whether that religion is true or not. That would be the fallacy of Argumentum ad populum

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."
Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia

The converse of this is that if many or most people do not believe it, it cannot be so, and that is fallacious.

I'm not talking about an argument from popularity. I'm talking about how, if something is ACTUALLY TRUE, then the evidence for that truth is there for all to see and people will agree about it. I can name countless cases where this has happened, and you are left floundering struggling to come up with excuses as to why this shouldn't also be expected of your proposed method of finding the truth.

 

[Tiberius]

What about plain English do you NOT understand?

No, I do not speak for God, Baha'u'llah speaks for God. I am just the 'messenger' for the Messenger.
In other words, I am just relaying what Baha'u'llah has revealed about God.

Oh, that's right, because you said, "Mr B said such and such..."

Oh wait, no you didn't.

Ah, but at least you quoted the bit where Mr B said that...

Oh, nope, you didn't do that either.

But you made it clear that you were simply repeating what someone else had said about...

Nope, didn't do that either.

 

[Sheldon]

What, the information from one can not travel to the other faster than the speed of light?

No, that is fallacious. It makes no difference.
If G-d's frame of reference approached the speed of light, it is as if all events of the other are simultaneous.

You have yet to demonstrate any objective evidence a deity is even possible, so inserting it into another frame of reference is no different to claiming mermaids are hiding in there.

 

[Tiberius]

What, the information from one can not travel to the other faster than the speed of light?

No, that is fallacious. It makes no difference.
If G-d's frame of reference approached the speed of light, it is as if all events of the other are simultaneous.

So what?

Even if he sees all events at once, he isn't able to tell you today what I'm going to do tomorrow.

 

[muhammad_isa]

You have yet to demonstrate any objective evidence a deity is even possible..

You have yet to tell us why any evidence that is produced is not "objective"?
Does objective evidence only include "seeing God", or what?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Even if he sees all events at once, he isn't able to tell you today what I'm going to do tomorrow.

Why? If an observer travels at a speed approaching that of light, then events over millions of years merge together.

For us, what we consider to be the present is merely an illusion.
as It only applies to our frame of reference. This is what is confusing you.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's your make-believe.

How do you know it is make-believe? You can no more know that than I can know it is real.

 

[Trailblazer]

Thor? Lighting and storms = evidence for Thor.

Lighting and storms cannot be tied back to Thor. It is an unevidenced belief.

There's no evidence for the deity you believe in.

There is scads of evidence for the Abrahamic God, and it was revealed in every age.

“That City is none other than the Word of God revealed in every age and dispensation. In the days of Moses it was the Pentateuch; in the days of Jesus, the Gospel; in the days of Muhammad, the Messenger of God, the Qur’án; in this day, the Bayán; and in the Dispensation of Him Whom God will make manifest, His own Book—the Book unto which all the Books of former Dispensations must needs be referred, the Book that standeth amongst them all transcendent and supreme.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 269-270

From: Tablet of the True Seeker

 

[Hidingfromyou]

Lighting and storms cannot be tied back to Thor. It is an unevidenced belief.

There is scads of evidence for the Abrahamic God, and it was revealed in every age.

“That City is none other than the Word of God revealed in every age and dispensation. In the days of Moses it was the Pentateuch; in the days of Jesus, the Gospel; in the days of Muhammad, the Messenger of God, the Qur’án; in this day, the Bayán; and in the Dispensation of Him Whom God will make manifest, His own Book—the Book unto which all the Books of former Dispensations must needs be referred, the Book that standeth amongst them all transcendent and supreme.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 269-270

From: Tablet of the True Seeker

The fictions you believe in are equal to the fictions of Thor.

 

[Hidingfromyou]

How do you know it is make-believe? You can no more know that than I can know it is real.

It has exactly as much validity as every other religion, which is to say, zero. I know it's make-believe because of that.