Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[Kfox]

It would be more believable to you and maybe other atheists, but not necessarily more believable to everyone. Religious believers who constitute about 84% of the world population would know it was not God because we know that God does not speak from the sky.

Evidently he consistently did this throughout the old Testament and people believed him; how come they won’t now?

That s a legitimate question. How I know is by looking at all the evidence, and I also believe that God has a part in the conclusions I came to from looking at the evidence.

When other people look at all the evidence, they arrive to a different conclusion than you do. Now a voice from the sky……

Maybe so, but here is the thing.... Why do you think it is important that more people believe in God?
And if it was not the real God, why would it matter how many people believed?

Because believing the truth is better than believing lies.

If the information came from the source no human could understand the source. And think of how it would be possible for a God speaking from the sky to reveal all the information that was revealed tho the Messengers in such a way that everyone would have ready access to it.

What kind of God do you worship that does not have the ability to communicate to each of his children in a way that they can understand?

Clearly Messengers who write scriptures is the best way for humans to have access to information about God and what God's will is for humans. All that could not be conveyed to everyone from a God speaking from the sky.

How do you know these messengers are not lying to you?

 

[Trailblazer]

And we'd have the same problem if the voice was from a man claiming to speak for God. How would we verify that he actually was speaking for God?

That's right, we would have the same problem, although it would be easier to verify a man claiming to speak for God than it would be to verify that a voice in the sky was actually God speaking. It would be impossible to verify the voice in the sky because there would be no evidence, let alone proof, that it was God speaking.

 

[Trailblazer]

Evidently he consistently did this throughout the old Testament and people believed him; how come they won’t now?

I do not interpret the Old Testament to be an accurate historical record of what God did. I believe it is mostly anthropomorphism about God, but even if God did speak to certain people back then, God did not speak to everyone, so the proof was only for the people the heard the Voice and knew it was God. That does not help us now in this new age.

When other people look at all the evidence, they arrive to a different conclusion than you do. Now a voice from the sky……

People would still arrive at different conclusions since people are all very different.

Because believing the truth is better than believing lies.

Only if you could verify that the Voice in the sky was actually coming from God. How could you do that?

What kind of God do you worship that does not have the ability to communicate to each of his children in a way that they can understand?

God does that ability, but the communication has to come through Messengers because no ordinary human could ever understand God directly.

“To every discerning and illumined heart it is evident that God, the unknowable Essence, the divine Being, is immensely exalted beyond every human attribute, such as corporeal existence, ascent and descent, egress and regress........ 1No tie of direct intercourse can possibly bind Him to His creatures. He standeth exalted beyond and above all separation and union, all proximity and remoteness. No sign can indicate His presence or His absence;” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 98

How do you know these messengers are not lying to you?

By doing the necessary research and investigation.

 

[Kfox]

That's right, we would have the same problem, although it would be easier to verify a man claiming to speak for God than it would be to verify that a voice in the sky was actually God speaking. It would be impossible to verify the voice in the sky because there would be no evidence, let alone proof, that it was God speaki

ng.

I disagree. A voice coming from the sky can be verified as real. Whether you choose to call that voice God or not is up to you, but at least you know it is real. A person claiming to speak for God, you can’t even verify if God is real.

People would still arrive at different conclusions since people are all very different.

No; people would agree on what the voice says; the only thing they will disagree on is whether they choose to recognize it as God or not.

Only if you could verify that the Voice in the sky was actually coming from God. How could you do that?

God means different things to different people. People will decide if this voice is the God they worship or not based on what he says.

God does that ability, but the communication has to come through Messengers because no ordinary human could ever understand God directly.

Do you not see the contradiction in what you just said? Does God have this ability? Or not. Does God have the ability to communicate with us in a way that we can understand him directly? Or not.

By doing the necessary research and investigation.

Please explain the research and investigation necessary to verify some guy claiming to speak for God is telling the truth.

 

[Trailblazer]

I disagree. A voice coming from the sky can be verified as real.

How? All we could know is that we hear a voice from the sky.

Whether you choose to call that voice God or not is up to you, but at least you know it is real. A person claiming to speak for God, you can’t even verify if God is real.

Sure, you know you heard a real voice but you could not know it is the Voice of God. If a person is claiming to speak for God you have the same problem, but at least you can look at the person who made the claim and determine if He was telling the truth.

No; people would agree on what the voice says; the only thing they will disagree on is whether they choose to recognize it as God or not.

Why do you think they would agree on what the voice says?

God means different things to different people. People will decide if this voice is the God they worship or not based on what he says.

That is exactly what people do now, with the Scriptures of various religions.

Do you not see the contradiction in what you just said? Does God have this ability? Or not. Does God have the ability to communicate with us in a way that we can understand him directly? Or not.

God has the ability to communicate with us in any way He chooses to, but ordinary humans do not have the ability to understand direct communication from God, and that is why God speaks through Messengers who are not ordinary men, they are BOTH divine and human.

“And since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation, and no resemblance whatever can exist between the transient and the Eternal, the contingent and the Absolute, He hath ordained that in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven. Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself.....The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.”” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 66-67

Please explain the research and investigation necessary to verify some guy claiming to speak for God is telling the truth.

The process is explained in this article: Independent Investigation of Truth

You can also watch this short video. It is only five minutes long.

 

[CG Didymus]

It would be better evidence if the Voice could ever be verified to be the Voice of God.
Do you understand the problem? We are right back to square one.

So, a voice from the sky that says, "I am God", has to be verified? But we're supposed to trust the voice of a man that says he was sent by God?

Okay, we get the voice from the sky. But that's not good enough. What else would God have to do? I think raising the capacity of people see him, and it could be with spiritual eyes, and to hear his voice the way that prophets do. And since God has done that with several people, it is something that God could do. And there is Bible verses that say that...

Jeremiah 31:34 No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the LORD,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the LORD. “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”
​

It's repeated in the NT...

Hebrews 8:11 No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.
​

There's another one about the people walking in darkness have seen a great light. Even if that is only a "spiritual" light, it does seem possible that God could show the "light" to those of us that are living in darkness. If he wanted. And maybe that "light" won't happen until more crap happens. All I can say is... What a nice, loving guy this God is.

 

[CG Didymus]

How do you know you aren’t one of those people? After all they have the same faith you have.

Yes, everybody "knows" there religion is the one that is true.

I don’t know about most, but a lot more would believe than now!

Somewhere in Revelation, it has the King of Kings riding down on a white horse. Earlier it says that every eye will see him. God's voice and a grand entrance like that might be convincing.

I disagree! Information should come from the source, not someone claiming to represent the source; that’s how we got into the mess we in right now with religion, everybody claiming to represent God when they are really just looking for power. After all; how are you supposed to know this guy claiming to speak for God actually is? Now a voice from the sky…..

Apparently God can't appear himself, and he has to send a special type of human, a manifestation, to speak for him. Oh, and God can't write either. So, his hands, if he had hands, are tied.

 

[CG Didymus]

Religious believers who constitute about 84% of the world population would know it was not God because we know that God does not speak from the sky.

God speaks several times in the Bible and NT. So, is there an official statement in the Baha'i Faith that says, for sure, God doesn't speak and that those things were symbolic? Oh, and maybe in some sects of Hinduism. Since some sects believe Krishna is God, then of course God not only spoke but was here in person. But again, for Baha'is, those things didn't really happen. God only does what the Baha'i Faith says God can do. Which is he doesn't incarnate in human form. He doesn't raise the dead. He doesn't write. Can't appear, even though the Bible has him appearing. And he only speaks through his manifestations, and a few prophets.

 

[muhammad_isa]

There's another one about the people walking in darkness have seen a great light. Even if that is only a "spiritual" light, it does seem possible that God could show the "light" to those of us that are living in darkness. If he wanted...

G-d knows what each one of us are thinking and doing.
He doesn't need closed circuit TV to do that.

If G-d made voices from the sky, or we all heard voices in our head, how is that not coercion?
It would also be like a loud radio that couldn't be turned off.
It would be rather annoying really
Not everybody is a suitable person to receive revelations. What is the point of 'broadcasting' to a devil, that G-d knows won't take heed?

G-d does communicate with us in various ways.
We are imperfect. We often lack sincerity. A voice from the sky would not change that. He is able to inspire us in whatever way He wills.

People have their reasons for belief or non-belief. They are not always what they claim. G-d knows each and every one of us.

 

[night912]

How? All we could know is that we hear a voice from the sky.

Sure, you know you heard a real voice but you could not know it is the Voice of God. If a person is claiming to speak for God you have the same problem, but at least you can look at the person who made the claim and determine if He was telling the truth.

Illogical. This is the special pleading fallacy. You said it yourself that they both have the same problem and yet, there's an exception for determining if the messenger is telling the truth.

God has the ability to communicate with us in any way He chooses to, but ordinary humans do not have the ability to understand direct communication from God, and that is why God speaks through Messengers who are not ordinary men, they are BOTH divine and human.

Then why wouldn't god just speak to humans directly so that they can understand him without the middleman causing miscommunication.

 

[lukethethird]

G-d knows what each one of us are thinking and doing.
He doesn't need closed circuit TV to do that.

That is so creepy.

 

[muhammad_isa]

That is so creepy.

Not really.
Do you not know what you are thinking and doing?
Our souls are of G-d. G-d is not a person.

I don't know of any person who is aware of the whole creation .. aware of every atom, that has and will be.

 

[Kfox]

How? All we could know is that we hear a voice from the sky.

Yes! A non human voice speaking our language.

Sure, you know you heard a real voice but you could not know it is the Voice of God. If a person is claiming to speak for God you have the same problem, but at least you can look at the person who made the claim and determine if He was telling the truth.

It’s not like there is a single definition of God recognized by all. Based on what the voice says, you can determine if you choose to call him God. With a person, not only do you know if the God he is speaking for is real, but you don’t even know if he is representing what God truly wants with his words. Also, it doesn’t make sense for God to have a messenger when he can speak to each of us individually. A messenger has no credibility; a voice from the sky verified not to be a hoax…..

Why do you think they would agree on what the voice says?

If everybody hears the exact same thing at the same time, everybody will agree on what’s said.

That is exactly what people do now, with the Scriptures of various religions.

No, each religion has a different message; there is no agreement. With a single voice from the sky, everybody agrees.

God has the ability to communicate with us in any way He chooses to, but ordinary humans do not have the ability to understand direct communication from God,

Why? Can’t God speak English?

The process is explained in this article: Independent Investigation of Truth

Can you explain it in your own words?

 

[Trailblazer]

That is so creepy.

It kinda is, and that is what we best watch out what we are thinking and doing.

 

[lukethethird]

It kinda is, and that is what we best watch out what we are thinking and doing.

Screw that.

 

[Kfox]

Somewhere in Revelation, it has the King of Kings riding down on a white horse. Earlier it says that every eye will see him. God's voice and a grand entrance like that might be convincing.

Kinda makes you wonder how come he can’t do that now. Why wait till it’s too late before such proof is provided?

Apparently God can't appear himself, and he has to send a special type of human, a manifestation, to speak for him. Oh, and God can't write either. So, his hands, if he had hands, are tied.

If God is incapable of doing what the weakest of humans are able to do, why call him God? Sounds like a very poor excuse to me.

 

[Trailblazer]

So, a voice from the sky that says, "I am God", has to be verified?

Yes, if we want to know it is really God.

But we're supposed to trust the voice of a man that says he was sent by God?

Only after verification.

Okay, we get the voice from the sky. But that's not good enough.

No, it isn't good enough because even if we could know it was God that is all we would know..... big deal.
What is the good of knowing God exists if you know nothing about God or what God wants us to do?

What else would God have to do? I think raising the capacity of people see him, and it could be with spiritual eyes, and to hear his voice the way that prophets do. And since God has done that with several people, it is something that God could do.

It is not God's job to raise our spiritual capacities. We are each given a certain capacity and it is our job to use the capacity we have. Not all people have the same capacity but our capacity can be developed.

“And now, concerning thy question regarding the creation of man. Know thou that all men have been created in the nature made by God, the Guardian, the Self-Subsisting. Unto each one hath been prescribed a pre-ordained measure, as decreed in God’s mighty and guarded Tablets. All that which ye potentially possess can, however, be manifested only as a result of your own volition. Your own acts testify to this truth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 149

And there is Bible verses that say that...

Jeremiah 31:34 No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the LORD,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the LORD. “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”
​

It's repeated in the NT...

Hebrews 8:11 No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.​

Those verses are not saying that God is going to raise our capacities The verses say that in the future everyone will believe in God/know God exists. The Bible says that and the Bab also wrote that. That will happen in the future when all people are more spiritually evolved.

Isaiah 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

“The Day is approaching when God will render the hosts of Truth victorious, and He will purge the whole earth in such wise that within the compass of His knowledge not a single soul shall remain unless he truly believeth in God, worshippeth none other God but Him, boweth down by day and by night in His adoration, and is reckoned among such as are well assured.”
Selections From the Writings of the Báb, pp. 153-154

There's another one about the people walking in darkness have seen a great light. Even if that is only a "spiritual" light, it does seem possible that God could show the "light" to those of us that are living in darkness. If he wanted. And maybe that "light" won't happen until more crap happens. All I can say is... What a nice, loving guy this God is.

God could do that but God does not want to do that. God wants us to search for the Light and find it by ourselves. Maybe more people will not turn to God until more crap happens.

“If God had pleased He had surely made all men one people.” His purpose, however, is to enable the pure in spirit and the detached in heart to ascend, by virtue of their own innate powers, unto the shores of the Most Great Ocean, that thereby they who seek the Beauty of the All-Glorious may be distinguished and separated from the wayward and perverse. Thus hath it been ordained by the all-glorious and resplendent Pen… ”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 71

A little word of advice; when people are attached to the things of this material world that prevents them from seeing the Light. Jesus said as much and Baha'ullah reiterated it.

 

[Trailblazer]

God speaks several times in the Bible and NT. So, is there an official statement in the Baha'i Faith that says, for sure, God doesn't speak and that those things were symbolic?

God can and does speak to major Prophets (Manifestations) and to other Prophets.

Question: How many kinds of divine Prophets are there?

Answer: There are three kinds of divine Prophets. One kind are the universal Manifestations, which are even as the sun. Through Their advent the world of existence is renewed, a new cycle is inaugurated, a new religion is revealed, souls are quickened to a new life, and East and West are flooded with light. These Souls are the universal Manifestations of God and have been sent forth to the entire world and the generality of mankind.

Another kind of Prophets are followers and promulgators, not leaders and law-givers, but they are nonetheless the recipients of the hidden inspirations of God. Yet another kind are Prophets Whose prophethood has been limited to a particular locality. But the universal Manifestations are all-encompassing: They are like the root, and all others are as the branches; they are like the sun, and all others are as the moon and the stars.

Twelve table talks given by ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in ‘Akká
The Three Kinds of Prophets

Oh, and maybe in some sects of Hinduism. Since some sects believe Krishna is God, then of course God not only spoke but was here in person.

Baha'is do not believe that God was ever "here is person" since we do not believe that God is a person.

But again, for Baha'is, those things didn't really happen. God only does what the Baha'i Faith says God can do. Which is he doesn't incarnate in human form. He doesn't raise the dead. He doesn't write. Can't appear, even though the Bible has him appearing. And he only speaks through his manifestations, and a few prophets.

Good job CG. You might be the best Baha'i teacher on this forum, even though you are not a Baha'i.

 

[Trailblazer]

Screw that.

Tell God.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes! A non human voice speaking our language.

If the voice was non-human why would it speak our language? And that is precisely the problem with God speaking to humans directly; God is non-human so does not speak our knowledge.

It’s not like there is a single definition of God recognized by all. Based on what the voice says, you can determine if you choose to call him God. With a person, not only do you know if the God he is speaking for is real, but you don’t even know if he is representing what God truly wants with his words. Also, it doesn’t make sense for God to have a messenger when he can speak to each of us individually. A messenger has no credibility; a voice from the sky verified not to be a hoax…..

There are two problems with this voice from the sky approach. First, you could never verify that the voice from the sky was not a hoax. Second, it would not be speaking to all of the 7.8 billion people in the world individually from the sky.

That said, it is true that with a person you do not know if he is speaking for God, and that is why we have to investigate the Messenger of God to determine if He is really a Messenger or rather a deceiver or a delusional man. If we determine He is representing God then we can believe that what he reveals is what God truly wants.

If everybody hears the exact same thing at the same time, everybody will agree on what’s said.

How do you think it is possible for all of the 7.8 billion people in the world to hear the same thing at the same time?

No, each religion has a different message; there is no agreement. With a single voice from the sky, everybody agrees.

Yes, I know that every religion has a different message and there is no agreement but there is no reason to believe that would be any different if they all heard the single voice form the sky, because no two people think alike.

The obvious solution is for everyone to recognize and believe in the latest Messenger from God, Baha'u'llah, but that is not going to happen for a long time because people have free will and most people choose to stay with the religion they have chosen, usually the religion they were raised in.

Why? Can’t God speak English?

God does not speak like a person because God is not a person. God speaks through the Holy Spirit and only those who are sent as His Messengers can comprehend God and translate what God reveals into a language that humans can understand.

Can you explain it in your own words?

Independent investigation of truth mans that we investigate everything surrounding the Messenger we are investigating. It means do research on His life, including His character and what He did on his mission from God. We would also want to investigate the religion that was established by Him. It is called independent investigation because we are not to be influenced by the opinions of other people, we are to look with our own eyes and make our own determinations.