Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[Tiberius]

I did verify it.

Convincing yourself it is true is not verification. Verification requires at least one other person to check your work, otherwise your own personal biases could be giving you incorrect results and you'd never realise it.

You are the pot calling the kettle black. When did you change your beliefs?

When I stopped being a Christian and became an atheist.

How do you think you can verify that a Messenger got messages from God?

The messenger has information that could not possibly be known by anyone else other than God.

For example, if a person in the 1600s said they were a messenger from God and then spoke of nuclear reactions in the sun, then that would make me sit up and take notice.

That does not change the fact that most people believe in God because of Messengers, which as my point.

Irrelevant. The existence of a messenger does not prove that the God they claim to speak for is real.

I am not going back over old points that are not important, I don't have the time. I am fielding atheists on two other forums now.

I'll take that as a no then.

It has nothing to do with logic. Both are methods of communication and the booming voice has to be believed the same way the Messenger has to be believed. That is why they are the same.

The difference is that any idiot can claim they are a messenger from God. There have been countless examples of it. Claiming to be a messenger from God even if you aren't is the easiest thing in the world to do.

Faking a big booming voice from the sky is much MUCH harder.

 

[Trailblazer]

Like I already stated, better you than me, the cognitive dissonance would drive me crazy.

My cognitive over God's alleged attributes drives me crazy, so there!

 

[Trailblazer]

Convincing yourself it is true is not verification.

I never said it was. A person is convinced by the evidence, that is how it works. Atheists have told me that.

Verification requires at least one other person to check your work, otherwise your own personal biases could be giving you incorrect results and you'd never realise it.

Sorry, but I am not going to cover this ground again. However, if you thought logically you would realize that everyone has biases so whoever was checking my work would just be tossing their own biases into the hat! And I would never realize it...

No, everyone is responsible for their own beliefs because everyone is accountable to God for their own beliefs. And because we all have the capacity to recognize God in His Messengers, we don't need anyone checking our work.

"I have perfected in every one of you My creation, so that the excellence of My handiwork may be fully revealed unto men. It follows, therefore, that every man hath been, and will continue to be, able of himself to appreciate the Beauty of God, the Glorified. Had he not been endowed with such a capacity, how could he be called to account for his failure? If, in the Day when all the peoples of the earth will be gathered together, any man should, whilst standing in the presence of God, be asked: “Wherefore hast thou disbelieved in My Beauty and turned away from My Self,” and if such a man should reply and say: “Inasmuch as all men have erred, and none hath been found willing to turn his face to the Truth, I, too, following their example, have grievously failed to recognize the Beauty of the Eternal,” such a plea will, assuredly, be rejected. For the faith of no man can be conditioned by any one except himself. "
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 143

When I stopped being a Christian and became an atheist.

That was some time ago and I am sure you had a good reason for doing so. But since then you have been mired in the same atheist beliefs. Many Christians become atheists but Baha'is do not become atheists because they have no reason to do so.

The messenger has information that could not possibly be known by anyone else other than God.

For example, if a person in the 1600s said they were a messenger from God and then spoke of nuclear reactions in the sun, then that would make me sit up and take notice.

That's right. The Messenger has information that could not possibly be known by anyone else other than God. Since the future cannot be known by anyone else but God, the fact that Baha'u'llah predicted many things about the future qualifies.

Irrelevant. The existence of a messenger does not prove that the God they claim to speak for is real.

I never said it proved that. How do you think you can verify that a Messenger really got messages from God? But what if He actually did?

The difference is that any idiot can claim they are a messenger from God. There have been countless examples of it. Claiming to be a messenger from God even if you aren't is the easiest thing in the world to do.

Claiming is very easy, but backing up the claim is not easy.

Faking a big booming voice from the sky is much MUCH harder.

Maybe so, but since there are no such booming voices from the sky we have to assume that is not how God chooses to communicate to humans.

 

[rational experiences]

First of all no man is God.

Men discuss God.

Just imagine no men as humans existed.

A female human would not suddenly say they were God.

Men do.

You claim it living as a human. Yet any one self dies.

All humans die.

Proof. No sex allowed. No more babies.

All humans would get old and die. No more human.

Where do you claim you will be?

With the eternal God.

The No death God.

So it cannot be a human. Pretty basic evidence.

Now as you are a man egotists inherited by science adapted consciousness. Men... all status ownership organisation rich men arguing is by men. Humans.

Status self agreed. Hierarchy by men taken above and beyond all things even universal.

And still to this day you don't accept it is just your ego problem that knowingly says God is not a man. Hence it has no association to you.

Why you cannot make God in science unconditional to one status of no harm.

Both earths heavens and earths body and a universal body could destroy you all at any moment.

And still you won't stop arguing about God in science...which never was real as a deity.

Your claim whilst alive is self idolisation of your owned human word use.

 

[Kfox]

Even if God could speak English you could never understand God.

Do you really even care if God exists or are you just going to keep talking about what God could do?
Why would it matter what God could do if God never does it? Or do you think that God is suddenly going to do an about face and do what you want Him to do?

My disagreement has nothing to do with God, it's about your claims of God that are contradictory. You wanna say he can do anything, but then turn around and say he is unable to communicate with humans; that is a contradiction; I'm just pointing that out.

 

[samtonga43]

My disagreement has nothing to do with God, it's about your claims of God that are contradictory. You wanna say he can do anything, but then turn around and say he is unable to communicate with humans; that is a contradiction; I'm just pointing that out.

The Bahai faith is loaded with contradictions. I've had my eyes opened on this forum and about this subject.

I thought, before I read Tb's hundreds of posts about her faith, that Bahai was an all-encompassing, gentle, rational belief system. However, she has persuaded me, along with the absence of evidence in the writings of the so-called messenger, that it is anything but.

 

[Trailblazer]

My disagreement has nothing to do with God, it's about your claims of God that are contradictory. You wanna say he can do anything, but then turn around and say he is unable to communicate with humans; that is a contradiction; I'm just pointing that out.

I never said that God cannot communicate to humans. I said that humans could never understand such communication.

 

[Trailblazer]

The Bahai faith is loaded with contradictions. I've had my eyes opened on this forum and about this subject.

There are no contradictions in the Baha'i Faith. Things you are incapable of understanding are not contradictions.

However, there are plenty of contradictions in Christianity. Everyone here knows that so I have no need to post it. If there were no contradictions in Christianity there would not be hundreds of sects. That is logic 101. By contrast, there are no sects in the Baha'i Faith.

I thought, before I read Tb's hundreds of posts about her faith, that Bahai was an all-encompassing, gentle, rational belief system. However, she has persuaded me, along with the absence of evidence in the writings of the so-called messenger, that it is anything but.

I did not persuade you of anything, you came to your own distorted conclusions. People here know what the Baha'i Faith is all about and your ranking on it constantly won't change that because people can think for themselves.

You just cannot help yourself can you? Do you come to this forum for any other reason except ranking on me and the Baha'i Faith? I have not seen you having any discussions about anything else. The question you might want to ask yourself is why you have a need to rank on my religion.

I do not make claims without evidence. Anyone can look at your profile and confirm what I am saying is the truth.

 

[samtonga43]

I never said that God cannot communicate to humans. I said that humans could never understand such communication.

If humans could never understand communication from God, then God cannot communicate to humans.

Logic 101

 

[Trailblazer]

If humans could never understand communication from God, then God cannot communicate to humans.

Logic 101

That is illogical.

Communicate: share or exchange information, news, or ideas.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=communicate+means

God could communicate (share information with humans) but they would have no ability to understand what God shared.

Intercourse: communication or dealings between individuals or groups.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=intercourse+means

“Immeasurably exalted is He above the strivings of human mind to grasp His Essence, or of human tongue to describe His mystery. No tie of direct intercourse can ever bind Him to the things He hath created, nor can the most abstruse and most remote allusions of His creatures do justice to His being. Through His world-pervading Will He hath brought into being all created things. He is and hath ever been veiled in the ancient eternity of His own exalted and indivisible Essence, and will everlastingly continue to remain concealed in His inaccessible majesty and glory. All that is in heaven and all that is in the earth have come to exist at His bidding, and by His Will all have stepped out of utter nothingness into the realm of being. How can, therefore, the creature which the Word of God hath fashioned comprehend the nature of Him Who is the Ancient of Days?”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 318

“And since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation, and no resemblance whatever can exist between the transient and the Eternal, the contingent and the Absolute, He hath ordained that in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven. Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself.....The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.””
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 66-67

 

[Kfox]

I never said that God cannot communicate to humans. I said that humans could never understand such communication.

Again; if God has unlimited abilities, he would have the ability to communicate to each of us in a way that we can understand and recognize. Does God have this ability? Or not.

 

[samtonga43]

That is illogical. God could communicate (share information with humans) but they would have no ability to understand what God shared.

You haven't thought this through rationally, Tb.
God, being God, would KNOW that humans have no ability to understand what he shares.

So why share? God knows better than to do the impossible.

Again, Logic 101.

 

[Trailblazer]

Again; if God has unlimited abilities, he would have the ability to communicate to each of us in a way that we can understand and recognize. Does God have this ability? Or not.

Again, it has nothing to do with God's abilities. Humans do not have the ability to comprehend God.
The only way we can understand God is through His Messengers.

Baha'u'llah explained why we cannot understand God directly and what God offers as a way that God can communicate to us, which is in the post above your post:
#4850 Trailblazer, 45 minutes ago

 

[Trailblazer]

You haven't thought this through rationally, Tb.
God, being God, would KNOW that humans have no ability to understand what he shares.

So why share? God knows better than to do the impossible.

Again, Logic 101.

Did I say that God shares anything with humans directly? No, I never said that.

I said that hypothetically speaking God could share information but humans could never understand what God shared. And that is why God does not communicate directly to humans, because God KNOWS that humans would never understand what God tried to communicate.

 

[Ostronomos]

I am the only person I am aware of who has experienced spiritual oneness with the non-local self-distributed consciousness in which mind and spirit becomes entangled with higher-dimensional wavefunctions (now made accepted science) including God's and demonic forces. Atheism is ignorance. This is an absolute truth.

 

[ppp]

You haven't thought this through rationally, Tb.
God, being God, would KNOW that humans have no ability to understand what he shares.

So why share? God knows better than to do the impossible.

Again, Logic 101.

For an omnipotent god nothing would be impossible. They would be able to communicate anything to any given human in a way that the human could fully and completely understand. Because omnipotence.

 

[Kfox]

Again, it has nothing to do with God's abilities.

Ma'am with all due respect; I am the one asking the question, and my question is 100% about God's abilities. Now I can understand your attempts to change the subject to something else that is easier or more comfortable to answer, but you are not going to get away with that.
Again; does God have the ability to communicate with each of us in a way we can understand? If not, say so and quit calling him omniscient.

 

[Trailblazer]

Again; does God have the ability to communicate with each of us in a way we can understand? If not, say so and quit calling him omniscient.

No, God does not have the ability to communicate with each of us directly in a way we can understand, but I won't quit calling God omniscient and omnipotent because that is what God is.

Why do you think you know what God would be able to do?
What you do is project YOUR own ideas of what it means for God to be omniscient and omnipotent and then you lay your expectations on God. That is readily apparent to anyone who even has a basic knowledge of psychology.

 

[ppp]

No, God does not have the ability to communicate with each of us directly in a way we can understand, but I won't quit calling God omniscient and omnipotent because that is what God is.

Why do you think you know what God would be able to do?
What you do is project YOUR own ideas of what it means for God to be omniscient and omnipotent and then you lay your expectations on God. That is readily apparent to anyone who even has a basic knowledge of psychology.

He's not projecting. The common usage of the word 'omnipotent' means having unlimited power, and able to do anything. If you have a different usage of the word, then don't blame Kfox when you do not reveal your private definitions.

 

[Trailblazer]

He's not projecting. The common usage of the word 'omnipotent' means having unlimited power, and able to do anything. If you have a different usage of the word, then don't blame Kfox when you do not reveal your private definitions.

God could communicate with each of us directly but we could not understand God because humans were not created with the capacity to understand God speaking to us directly.