Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[Tiberius]

I'm simply saying that if many Baha'is are saying the same thing to you, and each of these Baha'is is doing so independently, then it may be time to consider if they have a point.

I'm simply saying that if many atheists are saying the same thing to you, and each of these atheists is doing so independently, then it may be time to consider if they have a point.

 

[Tiberius]

It would not suggest that because it is unnecessary to provide evidence that did NOT come either directly or indirectly from his own works. Evidence is evidence, and His own works are part of the evidence.

His works are the CLAIM, and as such they can not be considered evidence.

Of course, if you think that the claim and the evidence to support the claim can be one and the same, then I have provided sufficient evidence that I can turn into a fire-breathing dragon.

However, I have presented evidence that is not either directly or indirectly from his own works.

No you haven't

Do you think I don't know that? That is correct, but.....

If the premise Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God is true, then the conclusion God exists must be true.

If the premise Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God is true, then the conclusion the Baha'i Faith is true must be true.

You are free to believe whatever you want to but I know the premises are true so I know the conclusions are true.

You don't know. You can't know unless it is a demonstrable fact. You have many times admitted you can't demonstrate that it is true to ANYONE, so you can't claim to KNOW. All you have is a belief.

In other words, your final sentence there should be, "You are free to believe whatever you want to but I really think the premises are true so I really think the conclusions are true."

 

[Tiberius]

No, they are not claims, they are beliefs I hold based upon what my religion teaches.

You present them as claims and then say they are not claims.

Your actions speak louder than your words.

I have no idea what you are asking.

You cannot claim to only post in response to the posts of others when you have started threads about Bahai, since starting a thread is, by definition, NOT a response to someone else.

 

[Trailblazer]

I see nothing there which indicates that subconscious BIASES (not subconscious mind) are completely undetectable.

I asked you to provide some scientific research that says that the subconscious mind of a person is detectable by other people.

I literally gave an example of how we can see the effects of a person's subconscious mind when I mentioned the guy with a fear of flying who always made what he viewed as rational excuses to avoid flying.

Sure that is true, but so what? How is that related to this so-called discussion?

So they based their position on his work - which, since it is the claim, can not be used as the evidence to support the claim.

His work is not the claim, it is the evidence that supports His claims.

Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Fruits: the pleasant or successful result of work or actions: fruit

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm simply saying that if many atheists are saying the same thing to you, and each of these atheists is doing so independently, then it may be time to consider if they have a point.

I'm simply saying that if many Baha'is are saying the same thing to you, and each of these Baha'is is doing so independently, then it may be time to consider if they have a point.

 

[ppp]

His work is not the claim, it is the evidence that supports His claims.

Someone saying that a thing is a certain way or does a certain action or can be detected in a certain way is a claim. That's what a claim is.

 

[Trailblazer]

His works are the CLAIM, and as such they can not be considered evidence.

His works are not the claim, they are the evidence that supports His claim.
Baha'u'llah did not have to CLAIM His works because He DID His works.

Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Fruits: the pleasant or successful result of work or actions: fruit

You don't know. You can't know unless it is a demonstrable fact.

You don't get to tell me what I know because you don't know what I know since you do not live in my head...

I do know and right now I am claiming to know.
Whatcha gonna do about it? Come through my computer screen and get me?

 

[ppp]

I'm simply saying that if many Baha'is are saying the same thing to you, and each of these Baha'is is doing so independently, then it may be time to consider if they have a point.

Asking them for evidence that goes beyond mere testimony is condering their point.

 

[Trailblazer]

You cannot claim to only post in response to the posts of others when you have started threads about Bahai, since starting a thread is, by definition, NOT a response to someone else.

I never claimed that only post in response to the posts of others.

Read what I said in context:
I think you are projecting onto me what 'you believe' my motives are.
I have no interest in convincing anyone that my beliefs are true.
I just respond to posts that are posted to me because I consider that my responsibility.

I do not want to convince anyone. As Baha'u'llah wrote:

“For the faith of no man can be conditioned by any one except himself.” Gleanings, p. 143

 

[Trailblazer]

Someone saying that a thing is a certain way or does a certain action or can be detected in a certain way is a claim. That's what a claim is.

Claim: state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=claim+means

Claim: to say that something is true or is a fact, although you cannot prove it and other people might not believe it: claim

I never did either one of those things.

 

[ppp]

Claim: state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=claim+means

Claim: to say that something is true or is a fact, although you cannot prove it and other people might not believe it: claim

I never did either one of those things.

You do constantly. However, I was not referring to you.

 

[Tiberius]

I asked you to provide some scientific research that says that the subconscious mind of a person is detectable by other people.

https://www.colorado.edu/oiec/sites...ices_that_can_minimize_unconscious_bias_0.pdf

Impact of Unconscious Bias in Healthcare: How to Recognize and Mitigate It

Is It Possible to Overcome Implicit Bias?

Unconscious Bias

Research Examines Link Between Unconscious Bias and Its Effect on Behavior

https://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/id/eprint/1419217/1/Newell_&_Shanks_Final_Copyedited.pdf

I found these on literally the FIRST PAGE of a Google search. It's not that hard to find.

Sure that is true, but so what? How is that related to this so-called discussion?

Because it shows that these things can have influences that are readily apparent to others, even if the person in question has no idea about them.

His work is not the claim, it is the evidence that supports His claims.

Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Fruits: the pleasant or successful result of work or actions: fruit

Very well.

Please show me the claim without referring to Mr B's works or actions or anything else that you have said is the evidence supporting his claims.

 

[Tiberius]

I'm simply saying that if many Baha'is are saying the same thing to you, and each of these Baha'is is doing so independently, then it may be time to consider if they have a point.

But they aren't doing so independently, are they?

And it seems that you are perfectly happy to dish out advice that you absolutely refuse to take.

 

[Tiberius]

His works are not the claim, they are the evidence that supports His claim.
Baha'u'llah did not have to CLAIM His works because He DID His works.

Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Fruits: the pleasant or successful result of work or actions: fruit

Very well.

Please show me the claim without referring to Mr B's works or actions or anything else that you have said is the evidence supporting his claims.

You don't get to tell me what I know because you don't know what I know since you do not live in my head...

I do know and right now I am claiming to know.
Whatcha gonna do about it? Come through my computer screen and get me?

Then you are wrong, since you can't possibly know, because you have no verifiable evidence.

 

[Tiberius]

I never claimed that only post in response to the posts of others.

Read what I said in context:
I think you are projecting onto me what 'you believe' my motives are.
I have no interest in convincing anyone that my beliefs are true.
I just respond to posts that are posted to me because I consider that my responsibility.

I do not want to convince anyone. As Baha'u'llah wrote:

“For the faith of no man can be conditioned by any one except himself.” Gleanings, p. 143

You said, "I just respond to posts that are posted to me..."

You did NOT say, "I just respond to posts that are posted to me, except for those times when I post for other reasons."

 

[Trailblazer]

https://www.colorado.edu/oiec/sites...ices_that_can_minimize_unconscious_bias_0.pdf

Impact of Unconscious Bias in Healthcare: How to Recognize and Mitigate It

Is It Possible to Overcome Implicit Bias?

Unconscious Bias

Research Examines Link Between Unconscious Bias and Its Effect on Behavior

https://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/id/eprint/1419217/1/Newell_&_Shanks_Final_Copyedited.pdf

I found these on literally the FIRST PAGE of a Google search. It's not that hard to find.

Of course our subconscious biases influence us, that is a well-known fact but I saw nothing in these articles that says that the subconscious biases of a person are “readily apparent to others, even if the person in question has no idea about them.” Moreover the solutions given for minimizing our subconscious biases are for the person who has them to try to minimize them by being aware of them, just as I told you before.

I asked you to provide some scientific research that says that the subconscious mind of a person is detectable by other people. A quick perusal of these articles I saw nothing that says that says that the subconscious mind of a person is detectable by other people.

Because it shows that these things can have influences that are readily apparent to others, even if the person in question has no idea about them.

Why do you think that they are more apparent to others than they are to ourselves? Show me anything in any article that says that. I might think you have certain biases you are unaware of but that is just my personal opinion. If you think you see biases that I have and you tell me that I am going to listen to what you say but you are not necessarily more able to see my biases than I am.

Very well.

Please show me the claim without referring to Mr B's works or actions or anything else that you have said is the evidence supporting his claims.

I cannot show you claims of Baha'u'llah without referring to His Writings because the claims of Baha’u’llah are in His Writings. Where else would His claims be, on the bulletin board at the corner grocery store?

 

[Trailblazer]

But they aren't doing so independently, are they?

They are doing so independently. Baha'is do not collaborate behind the scenes regarding what they are going to post to atheists.

And it seems that you are perfectly happy to dish out advice that you absolutely refuse to take.

You are the one who dished out advice FIRST.
All I did was dish out the same advice that you dished out to me in converse.

It would only be fair for you to take the same advice you are asking me to take, but apparently you think I should listen to atheists but you don't have to listen to Baha'is. That is called a double standard.

Here is a good example of a bias I can see that you cannot see and I cannot make you see it because you refuse to look at yourself. All you ever do is point fingers at me. Nothing is never about you and you are never wrong.

 

[Trailblazer]

Very well.

Please show me the claim without referring to Mr B's works or actions or anything else that you have said is the evidence supporting his claims.

I cannot show you claims of Baha'u'llah without referring to His Writings because the claims of Baha’u’llah are in His Writings. Where else would His claims be, on the bulletin board at the corner grocery store?

Then you are wrong, since you can't possibly know, because you have no verifiable evidence.

I do know and I do not need verifiable evidence in order to know. I have told you how I know in the past but I guess you forgot.

What I just said in the previous post plays out yet again. You are always telling me I am wrong and that is so you can think you are right. That is psych 101 stuff but I have a MA in Psychology so it is child's play.

 

[Trailblazer]

You said, "I just respond to posts that are posted to me..."

You did NOT say, "I just respond to posts that are posted to me, except for those times when I post for other reasons."

Why should I say "I just respond to posts that are posted to me, except for those times when I post for other reasons." Now you are going to dictate to me how I communicate?
I said: "I just respond to posts that are posted to me because I consider that my responsibility."
I did not say: "I just respond to posts that are posted to me..."

I am getting tired of all this pettiness and talk about what I said and how I said it. It does not matter.
If you persist you won't hear from me again. It's your choice.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I cannot show you claims of Baha'u'llah without referring to His Writings because the claims of Baha’u’llah are in His Writings.

Claims are OK. I have also claimed and am an enlightened person. But I do not think anyone believes that, although I am a truthful family person who, just like Bahaollah, has not harmed anyone and has always tried to help others. What worth do claims have?