Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[KWED]

When you barge into other peoples conversations, do a background study. Try to be a bit logical. If you try, you will succeed.

Ah, I get your MO now.
You drop a load of fallacy bombs and then refuse to answer anyone's questions or address their points.
Fair enough.

BTW, this is an open debate forum, so let's try again...
So, why is an omnipotent, creator god creating a universe within a universe "not a logical proposition"?

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: The definition of God is below and it has evidence. The evidence is God's intermediaries known as Manifestations of God, who are the prophets and messengers that have founded religions from prehistoric times up to the present day.

That makes zero sense to me as all those religions are mutually exclusive and incompatible with one another.

Religions are different from each other because they were revealed at different times in history to different people. Religions are revealed by the Messengers of God according to the needs of humanity in the ages in which they were revealed.

So, if the claim is that ALL "prophets and messengers" that have founded religions, were send by the same god, then I feel like this makes a testable prediction: all people should have the same religion.

Clearly that isn't true. So if this is your claim, then I consider your claim to be demonstrably false.

All people do not have the same religion because as I said above, Messengers revealed different religions at different times in history. Most people believe in the religion they grew up with, the religion that was passed down to them through the generations. What religion that is usually depends upon whether they live in the world.

Not to mention that you wouldn't be able to distinguish an actual answer from this god from a hallucination or self-deception.

That is true, you could never know if the answer came from God.

We would not. Beliefs and knowledge, aren't the same thing.
What you would have is a BELIEF, not knowledge.

We can have knowledge of God through what the Messengers of God reveal to us. That is the ONLY way we can have ANY knowledge of God.

"The Baháʼí view of God is essentially monotheistic."

This directly contradicts your earlier claim that "all prophets and messengers" are from this god, since plenty of them preached polytheistic religions.

No true Messenger of God ever preached polytheism. The older religions have no original scriptures, they were written by men who never even knew the Messenger hundreds of years after the Messenger lived and they do not accurately reflect what he taught. Nobodyu can ever really know what He taught since He never wrote His own scriptures, the religion was passed down by oral tradition.

“God is the imperishable, uncreated being who is the source of all existence.[1] He is described as "a personal God, unknowable, inaccessible, the source of all Revelation, eternal, omniscient, omnipresent and almighty".[2][3]”

Note the bolded part. This contradicts everything else you said.

No, it contradicts nothing I said because the Attributes of God and the Will of God can be known through His Manifestations (Messengers) although the Essence of God is completely unknowable.

“The purpose of creation is for the created to have the capacity to know and love its creator”

This contradicts the previous bolded part. God is "unknowable" and the purpose of creation is to "know".

See above.

“[4] God communicates his will and purpose to humanity through intermediaries,”

So he isn't "inaccessible" either.
Make up your mind.

God is not accessible but God’s will and purpose for humanity is accessible through intermediaries.

“known as Manifestations of God, who are the prophets and messengers that have founded religions from prehistoric times up to the present day.[5]”

All of which are mutually exclusive and all of which preach very different gods. (plural)

They are not mutually exclusive; they are connected, just like chapters in a book are connected. All the religions originated from the same God even though religious people have different conceptions of that God.

“The Baháʼí teachings state that there is only one God and that his essence is absolutely inaccessible from the physical realm of existence and that, therefore, his reality is completely unknowable”

Except when it isn't, apparently.
It's self-contradictory beyond being funny.

Maybe you cannot understand plain English. The reality of God is unknowable but we can know the Attributes of God and the Will of God through what the Messengers reveal. This is not that difficult.

“Thus, all of humanity's conceptions of God which have been derived throughout history are mere manifestations of the human mind and not at all reflective of the nature of God's essence.”

So now you're saying that all those "messengers and prophets" got it completely wrong?

No, I am saying that no human can ever know God’s Essence so whatever humans have imagined is just a product of their mind, not reality.

"While God's essence is inaccessible, a subordinate form of knowledge is available by way of mediation by divine messengers, known as Manifestations of God."

Again... which is it? Is it knowable or unknowable? Clearly you want to have it both ways.

The Attributes of God and the Will of God can be known through His Manifestations (Messengers) but the Essence of God (God’s intrinsic nature) is completely unknowable.

And then you wonder why I'm unimpressed.............

No, I do not wonder. One has to have a lot of patience and motivation in order to understand a new and completely different religious theology. It cannot be understood by a couple of posts on a forum.

 

[firedragon]

Ah, I get your MO now.
You drop a load of fallacy bombs and then refuse to answer anyone's questions or address their points.
Fair enough.

BTW, this is an open debate forum, so let's try again...
So, why is an omnipotent, creator god creating a universe within a universe "not a logical proposition"?

Just ad hominem.

If you want to engage with the logic, read up.

 

[SkepticThinker]

The question is why should God give people everything they WANT just because they want it? God is not a short order cook.

God gave us what we NEED and most people reject it. That is not on God. It is on the people who reject God's Messengers.

And my question is, why shouldn't this God make himself known to people "He" supposedly cares about? This God you speak of should know exactly what would convince me of "His" existence, if "He" actually cared. So all I can conclude is that "He" doesn't care for me to know about his existence, or can't show me that "He" exists or "He" doesn't actually exist. I'm not sure why it's my problem if I can't tell that "He" exists.

As far as I know, God didn't give me anything.

 

[firedragon]

Religions are different from each other because they were revealed at different times in history to different people. Religions are revealed by the Messengers of God according to the needs of humanity in the ages in which they were revealed.


All people do not have the same religion because as I said above, Messengers revealed different religions at different times in history. Most people believe in the religion they grew up with, the religion that was passed down to them through the generations. What religion that is usually depends upon whether they live in the world.
That is true, you could never know if the answer came from God.

We can have knowledge of God through what the Messengers of God reveal to us. That is the ONLY way we can have ANY knowledge of God.

No true Messenger of God ever preached polytheism. The older religions have no original scriptures, they were written by men who never even knew the Messenger hundreds of years after the Messenger lived and they do not accurately reflect what he taught. Nobodyu can ever really know what He taught since He never wrote His own scriptures, the religion was passed down by oral tradition.

No, it contradicts nothing I said because the Attributes of God and the Will of God can be known through His Manifestations (Messengers) although the Essence of God is completely unknowable.

See above.

God is not accessible but God’s will and purpose for humanity is accessible through intermediaries.

They are not mutually exclusive; they are connected, just like chapters in a book are connected. All the religions originated from the same God even though religious people have different conceptions of that God.

Maybe you cannot understand plain English. The reality of God is unknowable but we can know the Attributes of God and the Will of God through what the Messengers reveal. This is not that difficult.

No, I am saying that no human can ever know God’s Essence so whatever humans have imagined is just a product of their mind, not reality.

The Attributes of God and the Will of God can be known through His Manifestations (Messengers) but the Essence of God (God’s intrinsic nature) is completely unknowable.

No, I do not wonder. One has to have a lot of patience and motivation in order to understand a new and completely different religious theology. It cannot be understood by a couple of posts on a forum.

TB. Just watch the acting up of these evangelical, hyper dogmatic atheists. Watch them get angry, not engage decently, and try their best to find ways to insult rather than be logical and hide facts and hide what they dont understand. Watch and see. You will realise they are far, far, far worse than any other religious missionary types.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Just ad hominem.

If you want to engage with the logic, read up.

He did have a question there. You seemed to have ignored it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

TB. Just watch the acting up of these evangelical, hyper dogmatic atheists. Watch them get angry, not engage decently, and try their best to find ways to insult rather than be logical and hide facts and hide what they dont understand. Watch and see. You will realise they are far, far, far worse than any other religious missionary types.

 

[Trailblazer]

You have posted claims.
Claims aren't evidence.
Claims require evidence.

I have posted no claims because I make no claims.
I have posted my beliefs.
Claims require evidence. Baha'u'llah made claims and He provided the evidence that support His claims.

 

[samtonga43]

Why do people talk about my Baha'i beliefs and then blame me for steering the conversation towards my Baha'i beliefs?

Where did I do this?

If the premise Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God is true then the conclusion God exists must be true.

Ah! The big "IF"

(The reason it must be true is because Baha'u'llah declared that God exists, just as Jesus did.)

SO:
The B.Man said that God exists
∴ God exists.

Have I missed something, or is this your latest conclusion?

 

[Subduction Zone]

I have posted no claims because I make no claims.
I have posted my beliefs.
Claims require evidence. Baha'u'llah made claims and He provided the evidence that support His claims.

This:

"He provided the evidence that support His claims."

Is a claim on your part. You would still need to provide at the very least his evidence, And you have not does so, or if you think that you have you only demonstrated that Mr. B did not have proper evidence.

By the way, that was a weak attempt at passing the buck.

 

[Trailblazer]

By the same logic:

- the evidence for bigfoot are the people that claim to have seen him
- the evidence for lochness monster are the people that claim to have seen him
- the evidence for alien abduction are the people that claim to have been abducted
- .....
Do you understand the logical fail here?

I said nothing about evidence......
Obviously you do not understand what the passage means. Here, let me help.

“He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 49

He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men = God

can never be known except through His Manifestation = a Messenger of God

and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person. means that the proof of the truth - that He had a Mission from God - is who He was as a Person, as demonstrated by what He did on His Mission.

 

[Trailblazer]

You did, by saying that "messengers are evidence".

"Messengers" are just people making claims.

So it essentially comes down to you saying that claims are evidence.

Nope....

Messengers are the evidence that God exists because they represent God on earth.
Messengers make claims to represent God on earth.
Messengers provide evidence that support their claims that they represent God on earth.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I said nothing about evidence......
Obviously you do not understand what the passage means. Here, let me help.

“He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 49

He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men = God

can never be known except through His Manifestation = a Messenger of God

and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person. means that the proof of the truth - that He had a Mission from God - is who He was as a Person, as demonstrated by what He did on His Mission.

Okay, then how did he do the last part? I think that you will fail to give adequate reasons to believe him to be a messenger of God, but I could be wrong.

 

[Trailblazer]

What evidence?

The claims of Baha’u’llah and the evidence that supports His claims are in this post:

Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

 

[Subduction Zone]

Nope....

Messengers are the evidence that God exists because they represent God on earth.
Messengers make claims to represent God on earth.
Messengers provide evidence that support their claims that they represent God on earth.

This appears to contradict your previous post of not saying anything about evidence.

And once again, what is the evidence that the supposed messengers supply?

 

[Subduction Zone]

The claims of Baha’u’llah and the evidence that supports His claims are in this post:

Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

I must have missed it. I did not see any there.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't know. It is not my claim. It is hers.

And I have already explained how God's existence is demonstrated, hundreds of times.

 

[Subduction Zone]

And I have already explained how God's existence is demonstrated, hundreds of times.

Not really. But you have tried.

 

[Trailblazer]

Okay, then how did he do the last part? I think that you will fail to give adequate reasons to believe him to be a messenger of God, but I could be wrong.

and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person. means that the proof of the truth - that He had a Mission from God - is who He was as a Person, as demonstrated by what He did on His Mission.

I cannot explain all of that in a post. There is too much.

Who Baha'u'llah was as a Person, His character (qualities) can be determined by reading about Him in books such as the following: The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4

What Baha'u'llah did on His Mission on earth can be determined by reading about His mission in books such as the following:

God Passes By (1844-1944)
The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4, which cover the 40 years of His Mission, from 1853-1892.

That's how people learn things, they read books. All of this is now online free to read or download.
The Baha'i Faith is a very organized religion and all information about it is public and easy to locate.

 

[Trailblazer]

Nope, there is no "God" exception for the special pleading fallacy.

Special pleading is a form of fallacious argument that involves an attempt to cite something as an exception to a generally accepted rule, principle, etc. without justifying the exception.[1][2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_pleading

God IS the exception to every generally accepted rule and that is why the special pleading fallacy does not apply to God.