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Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

F1fan

Veteran Member
I quoted Jesus so if you don't like what he said you'd better have a good lawyer when you're face to face with him at that great courtroom in the sky..;)
Jesus said- "Pray that you may be able to stand before me.” (Luke 21:36)
I suggest you follow Jesus example of charity, good will, and not judging others instead of praying you are worthy.

When I see Christians who are indifferent to what Jesus taught they suggest they don't take god or Jesus seriously.

Christians who actually believe would bend over backwards following Jesus teachings in order to find a place in heaven.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
You and I have very different ideas about what is relevant, and the value of persuasion/convincing. I have gotten (and I believe given) value through dialectic. I have taught and been taught using that method. It seems that your endeavors in that department weren't quite as positive if you have so little regard for the process now.
Dialectic is not a contest to see who's 'beliefs' win out. That's just an ego-driven waste of time.
That's not how I see it at all. What matters to me about the proposition being claimed to be true is whether or not it is.
What you believe or don't is your own business. The purpose of philosophical dialogue is to gain an understanding of how other people conceptualize their experience of existence. It's not a battle of beliefs.
Their job, if they want to be believed, is to present a convincing argument.
Why would anyone in their right mind 'want to be believed'? Understood, accepted, respected; sure. But 'believed'? That makes no sense to me.
My job, if I want my fund of knowledge to contain as close as possible only correct beliefs, is to evaluate the argument, and if it is fallacious, recognize it as such, and not accept the claim, not try to see it through their eyes. If their thinking is obviously flawed from the beginning, why would anyone want to see any further through such eyes?
Why don't you just stop "believing" things and eliminate all this fussing and fighting about right and wrong beliefs. Why do you need to 'believe' anything?
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
I quoted quote mined Jesus...

FIFY.

Basically you don't seem to actually care about what Jesus is reported to have said (according to the bible), you just cherry-pick the bits you think will support your own intolerance if you interpret them in a certain way. I know of good, compassionate, tolerant Christians who also use the bible (far more honesty, as far as I can see, at least as far as what Jesus is supposed to have said) who would totally disagree with you and be horrified that you are portraying their faith in such a negative way.

But, as I said before, this is the problem with trying to base your idea of truth on an old and inconsistent collection of books.
 

Dropship

Member
..Most of them are not "useless scroungers" (see, for example: The Fiscal Impact of Immigration on the UK). Even if they were, your Jesus myth tells us we should feed them if they are hungry and to invite them in if they are strangers, or face 'eternal punishment' - as I quoted from your favourite book of myths (#1083).

Of COURSE the corrupt Estab wants us to think immig is a good thing, it's what they DO, so that report is meaningless..:)
There's a shortage of homes, the NHS is creaking and underpaid, taxes are going into immigs pockets as welfare, so it's time to say Britain is full up..:)
Jesus said so too-
"It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs....do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces" (Matt 15:26,Matt 7:6)

With any luck Africa is running on fumes by now..:)

musl-immig-2.jpg
 

PureX

Veteran Member
So a theist will assert truths they don't believe in? Why would they do that?
You're missing the point. What difference does it make to you what anyone else "believes in"? It's what they assert to be true, and what they do about it that matters. And the same goes for you. I don't get the point of this obsession with what people "believe", particularly on the part of atheists who keep endlessly proclaiming what they DON'T believe.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Why does anyone have to prove to you what they believe?
They don't. I don't care if a person believes that putting underwear on their head and dances naked under a full moon will get them closer to God, knock yourself out. But as soon as this person comes on a debate forum and claims this IS the only way to get closer to God, then they have opened the issue to debate and they assume responsibility to prove this assertion to the satisfaction of others.

If they are just posting it on a religious debate forum just so they can read it, and have no intent to follow through with a sound argument and evidence, then they should admit that before others take them seriously.


If I believe something it wouldn't matter to me if you believed me or not.
My belief would be for me, not you.
Then keep it to yourself, right?

But if you post what you believe on a public forum then you have indicated an interest to discuss the merits of what you believe. You can't get upset that the beliefs YOU posted for all to discuss are discussing it.

There needs to be personal accountability and responsibility for theists who want to subject their personal beliefs to scrutiny. This isn't fellowship.
 
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Dropship

Member
I suggest you follow Jesus example of charity, good will, and not judging others instead of praying you are worthy..

i'm an ex-convict (3 month vigilante rap in 2002) so I'm not perfect, but at least JC is my main man which gives me a better chance of making it to the pearlies than nonchristians..;)
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Of COURSE the corrupt Estab wants us to think immig is a good thing, it's what they DO, so that report is meaningless..:)
There's a shortage of homes, the NHS is creaking and underpaid, taxes are going into immigs pockets as welfare, so it's time to say Britain is full up..:)

Oh right, so it's all a conspiracy of lies. What I don't get, is that if you've decided that you can't believe the MSM and all the people doing independent work on this, then how do you decide who is telling the truth? Just whoever supports what you prefer to believe (like the way you distort the words of Jesus from the bible)?

It's kind of comical, really. This is how people come to believe drivel like the flat earth or that Bill Gates is putting microchips in vaccines...
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
You're missing the point. What difference does it make to you what anyone else "believes in"? It's what they assert to be true, and what they do about it that matters. And the same goes for you. I don't get the point of this obsession with what people "believe", particularly on the part of atheists who keep endlessly proclaiming what they DON'T believe.
There is a difference with arbitrary beliefs, like believing Coke tastes better than Pepsi, than with the cultural/religious beliefs of theists who have invested heavily in what they believe. Obviously the person who has more meaning invested in a belief than a person who believes but isn't invested can be more personally hurt by criticism of those beliefs.

A Christian might believe that "Jesus saves" but not fervently, and after a week of debate has heard enough to agree the idea is absurd and not believable by a rational mind, and they reject the belief and seek some other truth.

What non-theists engage with the most in debate are people who are passionate believers. They are the ones who will keep debates alive that are way past the point of hope.
 

Dropship

Member
..I know of good, compassionate, tolerant Christians who also use the bible (far more honesty, as far as I can see, at least as far as what Jesus is supposed to have said) who would totally disagree with you..

On the other hand plenty of true christians think I'm the bees knees, here's some of the feedback I get from around internetland..:)-

Spannerose - "I would like you to know that the result of reading your posts I am left with the desire to pick up my bible for the first time in years"
ChildofLight - "So good to read your responses, some are quite witty and made LOL"
HenryS - "You are brilliant in finding appropriate phrases. Another one of your superb emails to store"
Sarah4Jesus - "Listen to him, he is a great teacher"
Kierri - "That was one of the best explanations I've ever heard!"
Haimehenmmli - "I LOVE IT MATE!!! I'm going to put it into my files, with some of my other favorites, from you"
Saipan1777 - "Spot on, bravo"
Ainglkiss - "You write so well. Keep up the great work"
BlessedOne - "Glad to have you here! Jesus is the way!"
MonkGirl - "Wow, thank you! That is really comforting...and all I really needed to hear!"
JeffC - "HELL YEAH! PREACH IT BROTHER, THE REALITY WAY! (LUV YUR STYLE....)
Honeybearx - "This was very good reading thank you"
Megan - "I just wanted to tell you that I loved this story, it was very touching"
Sherry Anne - " i love your posts"
Antipas - "Brilliant yet again"
Easynote - "ROFL you are pure class, another of your timeless classics!"
Kermit - "RIGHT ON THE MONEY AND FUNNY, TOO"
Chrysalis55- "Just want to say, I love your posts and your messages not only inspire me, sometimes they make me laugh"
Evenflow- I just LOVE this post You have made me smile BIG TIME this morning. Good for you and what a great attitude you have to life xx"
Luismtzzz- "I like how you reason religion. I am enjoying your answers"
Justforme- "I am so happy to meet a sensible Christian"
Apple Pie - "Come on over to 4church, we could do with your input and your humour"
Lillian - "please come back..it's nice having you on the board"


 

F1fan

Veteran Member
i'm an ex-convict (3 month vigilante rap in 2002) so I'm not perfect, but at least JC is my main man which gives me a better chance of making it to the pearlies than nonchristians..;)
Your prejudice suggests you have no respect for Jesus or what he taught. Perhaps you are still in the prison of your own indifference to humanity.

It's fine to not be perfect. It isn't fine to ignore the lessons to be a better person. It's on you to bring the peace that Jesus taught.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Jesus said so too-
"It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs....do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces" (Matt 15:26,Matt 7:6)

With any luck Africa is running on fumes by now..:)

69257_4a240f9d0f8b4aac159f231ff782f399.jpg

This is getting very close to outright racism and hate speech.
JC is my main man which gives me a better chance of making it to the pearlies than nonchristians..;)

If heaven is going to be full of people with your attitude, count me out anyway.
 

Dropship

Member
..What I don't get, is that if you've decided that you can't believe the MSM and all the people doing independent work on this, then how do you decide who is telling the truth?..

Simply by using our grey matter like Buddha said-
"Believe nothing no matter who said it, unless it agrees with your own common sense and your own reason"
Likewise we should stand our ground in this crazy unreal world and say to ourselves-

 
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Dropship

Member
..It's fine to not be perfect. It isn't fine to ignore the lessons to be a better person. It's on you to bring the peace that Jesus taught.


As a Buddhist, you've rejected Jesus, so good luck with that..;)
Jesus said:- "Whoever rejects me rejects God" (Luke 10:16)
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
You seem to be racist towards your own people and would prefer to give food to immigs rather than to your own kids.

As I already said (with some actual evidence), it's not either/or. And you're still ignoring the (supposed) words of Jesus in the bible that I quoted. You can't even accept your own 'holy book' without cherry-picking it to suit your (rather nasty and intolerant, IMO) views.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
There is a difference with arbitrary beliefs, like believing Coke tastes better than Pepsi, than with the cultural/religious beliefs of theists who have invested heavily in what they believe. Obviously the person who has more meaning invested in a belief than a person who believes but isn't invested can be more personally hurt by criticism of those beliefs.
No one has any control over what anyone else "believes in" or chooses to invest their time and effort in. NOR SHOULD WE. What matters is whether or not their concept of reality would benefit us, if we could understand it, and how their behaviors (regardless of their beliefs) effect us. So again, I see not reason at all to be concerned with anyone else's 'beliefs', or for anyone else to be concerned with mine (or yours). And should I encounter anyone who is concerned with my 'beliefs' (I don't really have any) I would certainly ask them why. But no one ever is.
A Christian might believe that "Jesus saves" but not fervently, and after a week of debate has heard enough to agree the idea is absurd and not believable by a rational mind, and they reject the belief and seek some other truth.
That never happens. And even if it did, so what? Is this some kind of mind game we play with each other to prove who's mind is stronger than who's? Some sort of intellectual pissing contest, to feed our ego? I could find you ten people who claim that "Jesus saves", and every one of them would be saying it meaning ten very different things. Different things about what "Jesus" is, and what gets "saved", and how. So you win your verbal pissing contest, but what have you learned about how any of these people experience existence? Zippo. And what have they learned from you? Zippo.

BUT, you can walk away feeling all superior, and smarter than them, I guess.
What non-theists engage with the most in debate are people who are passionate believers. They are the ones who will keep debates alive that are way past the point of hope.
They give you a better pissing contest, I guess, sure. But you never actually win the game. And no one ever actually learns anything about how the other experiences the gift of being. ... But as long as that ego gets stroked ... who cares, right? (By the way, serving their ego is the reason they're trying to win the game, too.)

The "battle of beliefs" is nothing but a battle of egos. It has nothing to do with the pursuit of truth of knowledge.
 
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