Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[Tiberius]

Yeah feelings again.

Reality is what is real to you and since I do something, which is not real, I am not in reality! So where am I?

What in the world are you talking about?

 

[Tiberius]

I see that there is a source of Truth, that is actually responsible for our scientific capacity.

Regards Tony

Unsupported claim.

Also, it's vague as hell.

 

[Truthseeker]

Strange and astonishing things exist in the earth but they are hidden from the minds and the understanding of men. These things are capable of changing the whole atmosphere of the earth and their contamination would prove lethal."

Later his followers tried to claim this was radioactive materials. Plutonium doesn’t change the atmosphere, sounds like an attempt to make the statement fit. He forgot to mention we would make bombs and power plants from this. The God decided to give science advice but leave it super cryptic so it could fit many things. Instead of demonstrating it's actually a God and just saying heavy atoms will release high energy photons when they decay. But you can use it for energy because mass and energy are equivalent.

When a atomic bomb explodes it contaminates the atmosphere with radioactive materials. Why would he have to mention that bombs and power plants could be made from this? It doesn't prove anything, but it's your task to determine the truth about His revelation, and that means not just cherry-picking things that you think make Him look bad. Independent investigation of truth is called for, not just looking at it from a negative perspective.

 

[Truthseeker]

Bahá'u'lláh in the early 1860s, claimed that Copper can be turned into Gold and that its secret lies hidden in his knowledge. He also claimed that changing of one element into other (transmutation of elements) would become reality.

This never happened and never will. However in the mid 1800's science did believe this would be a possibility. They did not yet understand atomic structure. Clearly this is the words of a man with only knowledge of the time.

What are you talking about? Elements can be changed into other elements through nuclear processes. This is also a metaphor for transforming human character, this part about changing copper into gold.

Artificial transmutation may occur in machinery that has enough energy to cause changes in the nuclear structure of the elements. Such machines include particle accelerators and tokamak reactors. Conventional fission power reactors also cause artificial transmutation, not from the power of the machine, but by exposing elements to neutrons produced by fission from an artificially produced nuclear chain reaction. For instance, when a uranium atom is bombarded with slow neutrons, fission takes place. This releases, on average, 3 neutrons and a large amount of energy. The released neutrons then cause fission of other uranium atoms, until all of the available uranium is exhausted. This is called a chain reaction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_transmutation

 

[Subduction Zone]

What are you talking about? Elements can be changed into other elements through nuclear processes. Usually it's very small, but it happens. This is also a metaphor for transforming human character, this part about changing copper into gold.

Artificial transmutation may occur in machinery that has enough energy to cause changes in the nuclear structure of the elements. Such machines include particle accelerators and tokamak reactors. Conventional fission power reactors also cause artificial transmutation, not from the power of the machine, but by exposing elements to neutrons produced by fission from an artificially produced nuclear chain reaction. For instance, when a uranium atom is bombarded with slow neutrons, fission takes place. This releases, on average, 3 neutrons and a large amount of energy. The released neutrons then cause fission of other uranium atoms, until all of the available uranium is exhausted. This is called a chain reaction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_transmutation

Do you seriously think that Baha was talking about nuclear transformations? And I have my doubts if anyone ever made gold that way, though it is technically possible. He clearly did not know how that was done.

 

[Truthseeker]

‘Abdu’l-Bahá claimed that “bodily diseases like consumption and cancer are contagious” and that “safe and healthy persons” must guard against it


Nope not contagious. Again, this reflects thoughts by doctors at this time. Clearly not speaking for a God.

Couldn't find this in 'Abdu'l-Baha's Writings officially translated.

Found this statement in the Challenge of Baha'u'llah:

‘Abdu’l-Bahá wrote that 'bodily diseases like consumption and cancer are contagious'* in the same manner as other infections against which 'safe and healthy persons' must guard themselves.158 This was obviously true of consumption (tuberculosis) - but what of cancer?
Gary L. Matthews, "The Challenge of Bahá’u’lláh"

He goes on to say:

*The Persian word for 'contagious' embraces all the shades of meaning represented by the English words 'contagious', 'infectious' and 'communicable'. It can therefore connote mild, infrequent infectivity as well as dramatic and obvious contagion. +105 relevance loomed larger after researchers found similar tumours in rabbits (1932), frogs (1934) and mice (1936).'60 These infectious cancers had long been overlooked because they tend to spread in ways that mask their true nature. They may, for example, be transmitted through a virus in the mother's milk or placenta, appearing to be hereditary. Many such viruses cease to display infective activity as soon as they have induced cancer, making their role extremely difficult to recognize. These findings fanned suspicion that similar tumour-producing viruses might be able to spread from túmán being to human being.

No responsible authority has ever suggested that all, or even most, forms of cancer are communicable, much less that they spread through casual contact. Most malignant tumours clearly are induced by exposure to chemicals, radiation or similar environmental agents; by hereditary and genetic factors; or by combinations of such causes. Nevertheless, the infectious origin of some human cancers now is considered 'almost certain"6'; and 'the evidence grows stronger with each passing month'.'62 Cervical cancer, for example, is linked in clinical studies to human papilloma virus. On the basis of such studies, many authorities now believe that if a man is sexually involved with multiple women, one of whom has cervical cancer, he can become a carrier for the virus and thus transmit the disease from the infected partner to the healthy ones.
Gary L. Matthews, "The Challenge of Bahá’u’lláh"

Don't know where Gary Matthews got this statement or translation of what 'Abdu'l-Baha said. Nevertheless, he got some kind of answer, which doesn't appear certain as of when this was written.

edit: I am not called truthseeker for nothing. Found this online:

Although cancer itself is not contagious, there are some germs that can play a role in the development of certain types of cancer. This may lead some people to wrongly think that “cancer is catching.” Infections that have been linked to cancer include viruses, bacteria and parasites.

Is Cancer Contagious?

Technically, this says cancer is not contagious. Just that certain stuff is linked to cancer.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Couldn't find this in 'Abdu'l-Baha's Writings officially translated.

Found this statement in the Challenge of Baha'u'llah:

‘Abdu’l-Bahá wrote that 'bodily diseases like consumption and cancer are contagious'* in the same manner as other infections against which 'safe and healthy persons' must guard themselves.158 This was obviously true of consumption (tuberculosis) - but what of cancer?
Gary L. Matthews, "The Challenge of Bahá’u’lláh"

He goes on to say:

*The Persian word for 'contagious' embraces all the shades of meaning represented by the English words 'contagious', 'infectious' and 'communicable'. It can therefore connote mild, infrequent infectivity as well as dramatic and obvious contagion. +105 relevance loomed larger after researchers found similar tumours in rabbits (1932), frogs (1934) and mice (1936).'60 These infectious cancers had long been overlooked because they tend to spread in ways that mask their true nature. They may, for example, be transmitted through a virus in the mother's milk or placenta, appearing to be hereditary. Many such viruses cease to display infective activity as soon as they have induced cancer, making their role extremely difficult to recognize. These findings fanned suspicion that similar tumour-producing viruses might be able to spread from túmán being to human being.

No responsible authority has ever suggested that all, or even most, forms of cancer are communicable, much less that they spread through casual contact. Most malignant tumours clearly are induced by exposure to chemicals, radiation or similar environmental agents; by hereditary and genetic factors; or by combinations of such causes. Nevertheless, the infectious origin of some human cancers now is considered 'almost certain"6'; and 'the evidence grows stronger with each passing month'.'62 Cervical cancer, for example, is linked in clinical studies to human papilloma virus. On the basis of such studies, many authorities now believe that if a man is sexually involved with multiple women, one of whom has cervical cancer, he can become a carrier for the virus and thus transmit the disease from the infected partner to the healthy ones.
Gary L. Matthews, "The Challenge of Bahá’u’lláh"

Don't know where Gary Matthews got this statement or translation of what 'Abdu'l-Baha said. Nevertheless, he got some kind of answer, which doesn't appear certain as of when this was written.

edit: I am not called truthseeker for nothing. Found this online:

Although cancer itself is not contagious, there are some germs that can play a role in the development of certain types of cancer. This may lead some people to wrongly think that “cancer is catching.” Infections that have been linked to cancer include viruses, bacteria and parasites.

Is Cancer Contagious?

Technically, this says cancer is not contagious. Just that certain stuff is linked to cancer.

So he got something right that was common knowledge back then and got a major one wrong.

You are not doing him any favors.

 

[Truthseeker]

He clearly did not know how that was done.

How do you know? Are you a mind reader?

 

[Truthseeker]

So he got something right that was common knowledge back then and got a major one wrong.

You are not doing him any favors.

I'm at least a honest person.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I'm at least a honest person.

I am not so sure if using nonsense as "evidence" is being honest. It looks like you are grasping at straws. An honest person would own up to the flaws of one's beliefs.

 

[Subduction Zone]

How do you know? Are you a mind reader?

I do not need to be.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I will defend Baha'u'llah but not the rest of the religion.

So, Abdul Baha and Shoghi could be wrong, not completely reliable, they were not manifestations! In that way even HoJ could be wrong. Be careful, you might be breaking the covanant.

I posted the claims of Baha’u’llah and the evidence that supports the claims of Baha’u’llah on this thread:

Unfortunately, that evidence satisfied only the Bahais, not even other theists.

Atheists are obsessed with idea of claims and they cannot separate claims from scriptures and evidence.

Atheists are very clear about claims. They do not accept claims of scriptures. They will accept claims only on evidence. So all this "Bahaollah said .." does not mean anything to us.

 

[Tiberius]

What are you talking about? Elements can be changed into other elements through nuclear processes. This is also a metaphor for transforming human character, this part about changing copper into gold.

Can you show that this is what he was talking about, that Mr B was specifically referring to the nuclear processes that can change one element into another?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Can you show that this is what he was talking about, that Mr B was specifically referring to the nuclear processes that can change one element into another?

Unfortunately Christian apologists and probably Muslim ones use the same strategy. A really really weak way out of a problem is thought to be a "refutation".

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. but it's your task to determine the truth about His revelation, ..

Yes, I have done that, and to me, he comes out as a self-bloated narcissist selling snake-oil.

‘Abdu’l-Bahá wrote that 'bodily diseases like consumption and cancer are contagious'* ..
Technically, this says cancer is not contagious.

At the end you agree that cancer is not contagious. What kind of guide did Bahais have?

 

[Trailblazer]

So, Abdul Baha and Shoghi could be wrong, not completely reliable, they were not manifestations!

That's right. They were not infallible because they were not Manifestations of God. I'm glad you have been paying attention.

 

[Trailblazer]

Be careful, you might be breaking the covanant.

I am far from perfect and I am only a fringe Baha'i anyway. I'd make a better atheist so my husband says.

 

[Subduction Zone]

That's right. They were not infallible because they were not Manifestations of God. I'm glad you have been paying attention.

To be fair I think that he meant "messengers" and you should have known that.

 

[Trailblazer]

So your opinion that God exists and Mr B is his messenger does not equate to "God exists and Mr B is his messenger" being a fact.

It is a fact to me because it is known to me but it cannot be considered a fact since it is not known to everyone.

fact
something that is known to have happened or to exist, especially something for which proof exists, or about which there is information:
fact

All you can do is saying, "It is my opinion that God exists and Mr B is his messenger," and I will completely agree with you. That is indeed an opinion you hold.

It is a belief I hold, not an opinion.
If you really want to know where I stand now and how I got there I suggest you read what I just posted to @CG Didymus:

#4000 Trailblazer

 

[Trailblazer]

To be fair I think that he meant "messengers" and you should have known that.

He said 'manifestations' but in the Baha'i Faith a Messenger of God is the same as a Manifestation of God.

"Abdul Baha and Shoghi could be wrong, not completely reliable, they were not manifestations!"

#1632 Aupmanyav, Today at 7:50 PM