Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[Tiberius]

It is not a claim, it is a belief. Claims can be proven, beliefs cannot be proven.

I do not care if it is convincing because I am not trying to convince anyone, I am just sharing. It is best that you start to understand the difference between sharing and convincing.

“Consort with all men, O people of Bahá, in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship. If ye be aware of a certain truth, if ye possess a jewel, of which others are deprived, share it with them in a language of utmost kindliness and good-will. If it be accepted, if it fulfil its purpose, your object is attained. If anyone should refuse it, leave him unto himself, and beseech God to guide him. Beware lest ye deal unkindly with him. A kindly tongue is the lodestone of the hearts of men. It is the bread of the spirit, it clotheth the words with meaning, it is the fountain of the light of wisdom and understanding….”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 289

Did you read the bit where it says, "If anyone should refuse it, leave him unto himself..."?

The fact that you haven't done so is just one of the many things you have done which indicates you didn't come to share, but to preach.

 

[Tiberius]

I use the mind that developed through evolution. God did not literally give me a mind, God set the process of evolution in motion and let it roll. At some point during the process of evolution God instilled man with a rational soul, which distinguishes man from the other animals. It is our rational soul that allows humans to think and do things that other animals cannot do. That is a belief, not a claim.

“The human spirit which distinguishes man from the animal is the rational soul, and these two names—the human spirit and the rational soul—designate one thing. This spirit, which in the terminology of the philosophers is the rational soul, embraces all beings, and as far as human ability permits discovers the realities of things and becomes cognizant of their peculiarities and effects, and of the qualities and properties of beings.” Some Answered Questions, p. 208

55: SOUL, SPIRIT AND MIND

You seem unaware of the remarkable ways in which animals can display a lot more intelligence than we thought.

Rational Thinking In Animals | A Moment of Science - Indiana Public Media

Do Animals Think Rationally? - University of Houston

Rational Thinking In The Animal Kingdom Might Be More Common Than We Thought

UH Moment: Do Animals Think Rationally? | Houston Public Media

 

[Tiberius]

Scientific facts MUST be measurable and testable in order to be proven true.

What you are referring to is not evidence, it is proof. Evidence is not proof. If you expect evidence for a religion to be scientifically verifiable that is an illogical expectation since religion is not science (fallacy of false equivalence).

Something is scientifically verifiable if it can be tested and proven to be true. Verifiable comes from the verb verify, "authenticate" or "prove," from the Old French verifier, "find out the truth about." The Latin root is verus, or "true." Definitions of verifiable.
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/verifiable

Do you not see that proof for something is evidence for that thing?

Proof that I live in Australia certainly serves as evidence that I live in Australia.

 

[CG Didymus]

Did you read the bit where it says, "If anyone should refuse it, leave him unto himself..."?

The fact that you haven't done so is just one of the many things you have done which indicates you didn't come to share, but to preach.

There's some other interesting stuff there...

“Consort with all men, O people of Bahá, in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship. If ye be aware of a certain truth, if ye possess a jewel, of which others are deprived, share it with them in a language of utmost kindliness and good-will. If it be accepted, if it fulfil its purpose, your object is attained. If anyone should refuse it, leave him unto himself, and beseech God to guide him. Beware lest ye deal unkindly with him. A kindly tongue is the lodestone of the hearts of men. It is the bread of the spirit, it clotheth the words with meaning, it is the fountain of the light of wisdom and understanding….”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 289

Consort in a spirit of friendliness? If you believe your "stuff" is the truth share with utmost kindliness? Beware lest you deal unkindly with them? Then a kindly tongue is all that goody good stuff? If only Baha'is put into practice their own teachings. But, I think that is the number flaw with most religions... People can't live up to what they teach.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes it is, and I'm done explaining this every time now.

Unfortunately, I do not think you are done.

 

[firedragon]

Do you not see that proof for something is evidence for that thing?

Proof that I live in Australia certainly serves as evidence that I live in Australia.

You are right. Evidence and proof are just used differently. E.g. Mathematical proofs can be shown as evidence.

 

[Trailblazer]

Did you read the bit where it says, "If anyone should refuse it, leave him unto himself..."?

The fact that you haven't done so is just one of the many things you have done which indicates you didn't come to share, but to preach.

No, it only shows that I am a fool to keep answering posts. I am doing the opposite of preaching when I tell you I cannot prove my religion is true and that is not my job.

I have no interest in converting you. I only answer to be polite. Leave me alone and I assure you I will leave you alone.

 

[Trailblazer]

You seem unaware of the remarkable ways in which animals can display a lot more intelligence than we thought.

Rational Thinking In Animals | A Moment of Science - Indiana Public Media

Do Animals Think Rationally? - University of Houston

Rational Thinking In The Animal Kingdom Might Be More Common Than We Thought

UH Moment: Do Animals Think Rationally? | Houston Public Media

Maybe so, but they cannot do what humans can do.
Can animals build airplanes and develop vaccines, address climate change?

 

[Trailblazer]

Do you not see that proof for something is evidence for that thing?

Proof that I live in Australia certainly serves as evidence that I live in Australia.

Proof is evidence but evidence is not proof.
Evidence indicates but proof establishes, that is the difference.

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid: https://www.google.com/search

Proof: evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement: https://www.google.com/search

 

[Tiberius]

No, it only shows that I am a fool to keep answering posts. I am doing the opposite of preaching when I tell you I cannot prove my religion is true and that is not my job.

I have no interest in converting you. I only answer to be polite. Leave me alone and I assure you I will leave you alone.

Oh, I'm perfectly happy to keep answering posts. I see no reason why I should stop. If YOU want to stop, then that's something you'll have to do yourself. But as long as you keep posting logical fallacies and inconsistencies, I'll keep responding to point them out.

 

[Tiberius]

Maybe so, but they cannot do what humans can do.
Can animals build airplanes and develop vaccines, address climate change?

No, but how did you determine that those are criteria by which to measure it?

 

[Tiberius]

Proof is evidence but evidence is not proof.
Evidence indicates but proof establishes, that is the difference.

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid: https://www.google.com/search

Proof: evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement: https://www.google.com/search

So establishing that 5 is greater than 3 does not indicate that 5 is greater than 3?

 

[Trailblazer]

But as long as you keep posting logical fallacies and inconsistencies, I'll keep responding to point them out.

Do you ever wonder why you have to keep pointing out what 'you believe' are 'my errors?'
What does that do for you?

I don't wonder at all, because Baha'u'llah explained why. And as long as you keep pointing out what 'you believe' are my errors I will keep pointing out what Baha'u'llah wrote about WHY people magnify the faults of others.

44. O Companion of My Throne!

Hear no evil, and see no evil, abase not thyself, neither sigh and weep. Speak no evil, that thou mayest not hear it spoken unto thee, and magnify not the faults of others that thine own faults may not appear great; and wish not the abasement of anyone, that thine own abasement be not exposed. Live then the days of thy life, that are less than a fleeting moment, with thy mind stainless, thy heart unsullied, thy thoughts pure, and thy nature sanctified, so that, free and content, thou mayest put away this mortal frame, and repair unto the mystic paradise and abide in the eternal kingdom forevermore.

The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh

 

[Trailblazer]

No, but how did you determine that those are criteria by which to measure it?

Criteria by which to measure what?

 

[Trailblazer]

So establishing that 5 is greater than 3 does not indicate that 5 is greater than 3?

No establishing that 5 is greater than 3 does proves that 5 is greater than 3.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I asked what logical axioms you adhere to.

If you ask me - none other than 'all things have their cause'.
Buddha said, 'Do not go upon an axiom (naya-hetu), ..'
Kesamutti Sutta - Wikipedia

If you expect evidence for a religion to be scientifically verifiable that is an illogical expectation since religion is not science (fallacy of false equivalence).

You are giving a license to crooks, scammers, fakes and falsehood if you do not ask for evidence.

.. a feeling that is based on confirmed facts. Maybe it is not factual, maybe it is absolutely false, but still the person "believes" it is fact.

This is an absolutely hilarious statement. What kind of stupidity it would be to believe in 'things that are not factual' and 'may even be absolutely false'?

Can animals build airplanes and develop vaccines, address climate change?

They sure do what is necessary for them. And in case, the environment at one place does not suit them, they go to other places or stay put.
Climate change and migratory birds

But this is considered dumb by educated philosophers because when discussing theology, one cannot be so illogical enough to get into science.

Oh, you mean only uneducated philosophers are to be believed? And we should forget about science and proof before we go into theology? Theology must always be done by uneducated philosophers?

 

[joelr]

I use the mind that developed through evolution. God did not literally give me a mind, God set the process of evolution in motion and let it roll. At some point during the process of evolution God instilled man with a rational soul, which distinguishes man from the other animals. It is our rational soul that allows humans to think and do things that other animals cannot do. That is a belief, not a claim.

“The human spirit which distinguishes man from the animal is the rational soul, and these two names—the human spirit and the rational soul—designate one thing. This spirit, which in the terminology of the philosophers is the rational soul, embraces all beings, and as far as human ability permits discovers the realities of things and becomes cognizant of their peculiarities and effects, and of the qualities and properties of beings.” Some Answered Questions, p. 208

55: SOUL, SPIRIT AND MIND

This man wrote this before the discovery of hominid fossils. Now we know there was a long line of hominids, slowly becoming more like Homo Sapien. The previous hominid Heidelbergensis was very similar to us, they wore clothes, buried their dead, had language, tools, weapons. Possibly earlier hominid as well. The idea that at some point one species of hominid just magically suddenly had a soul while the previous didn't is ridiculous.
More evidence here that this man was writing using the science of his time and not using God magic.

Also the concept of a "soul" is completely unproven and largely started with Greek philosophy which was adapted by Christianity after the Greek occupation.
These fluffy, ego driven concepts remove man from nature and make him extra-special because he has a ghost inside his body and gets to live forever.

The terminology of the philosophers (rational soul) did not mean spirit. Many philosophers from that time were atheist.
Russell, Neitzsche, Marx, Lucretius, Hume, Schopenhauer ....

Does he say anything correct?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Leave me alone and I assure you I will leave you alone.

We cannot leave you because you cannot leave us but keep posting sayings of your uneducated 19th Century Iranian, self-proclaimed messenger of Allah.

The situation is like that of a man and a bear who were drowning in a flood and the bear clutched the man. The man's companions thought that the person was enveloped in a blanket. They shouted "Leave the blanket". The person replied "I would certainly leave the blanket, but the blanket is not leaving me."

Evidence indicates but proof establishes, that is the difference.

So what is your proof of existence of God, and what is your proof for the Iranian to be a messenger of Allah?

O, companions of my throne!
.. and repair unto the mystic paradise and abide in the eternal kingdom forevermore.

What is this person talking about? What throne? Whose throne? Was this person sane? Where is this paradise and what kingdom is he talking about? What kind of snake-oil is this?

This man wrote this before the discovery of hominid fossils.

'Some unanswered Questions' is not only what the Iranian said, but also the explanations given by his son, Abdul Baha; his great grandson, Shoghi; and their House of Justice. The first human fossil find listed in Wikipedia is Red Lady of Paviland (actually a male, Homo Sapiens) who existed some 33,000 years ago, by William Buckland in 1823 in South Wales (i.e., when the Iranian was four year old). But what did he know about that?

 

[firedragon]

If you ask me - none other than 'all things have their cause'.
Buddha said, 'Do not go upon an axiom (naya-hetu), ..'
Kesamutti Sutta - Wikipedia
You are giving a license to crooks, scammers, fakes and falsehood if you do not ask for evidence.This is an absolutely hilarious statement. What kind of stupidity it would be to believe in 'things that are not factual' and 'may even be absolutely false'?They sure do what is necessary for them. And in case, the environment at one place does not suit them, they go to other places or stay put.
Climate change and migratory birds
Oh, you mean only uneducated philosophers are to be believed? And we should forget about science and proof before we go into theology? Theology must always be done by uneducated philosophers?

So Buddha is your methodology, not science right? Is that why you are directly going against science by trying to propagate scientist itself? Now you have to use the Buddha. Lol.

if you don’t believe in science and you don’t take a scientific approach by saying you don’t accept science and it’s axioms, then you are being against science because your aim is to further your agenda even if you have to dump science under the bus.

Or you are just not aware of science.

 

[Aupmanyav]

So Buddha is your methodology, not science right?

I choose what I like. There are things on which I differ from Buddha, but accept what appears to me as correct. There is no one whose word I will take like Christians and Muslims take what is written in Bible or Quran.