Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[muhammad_isa]

By the way, God cannot both allow free choice and be omnipotent and omniscient. That is a self contradiction.

That is your claim .. I don't accept it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

That is your claim .. I don't accept it.

Then you reject basic logic. That is okay. No religious belief appears to be a rational belief.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I might as well claim that I know what you are going to do tomorrow. And if you do something different, well, I knew you were going to do that as well.

No, not at all.
You say "if you do something different"..
It is not possible by definition

That does not mean that you have no free choice, it means that God knows that you don't want to choose anything different.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Then you reject basic logic. That is okay. No religious belief appears to be a rational belief.

I do not reject basic logic .. explain, please

 

[muhammad_isa]

If I watch Aladdin, I know that at the end, Aladdin is going to use his last wish to free Genie. Can Aladdin choose to do something different?

No .. That would be because he didn't WANT to choose something different

And you have STILL not picked an argument from your post 2342. I will keep asking you until you do so.

OK

 

[muhammad_isa]

Then you just took away free will. God made @Tiberius put on a red shirt.

That lacks any insight in the issue.
God did not make anybody put on a red shirt..
That is what they wanted to do.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I had no free will if I couldn't have done anything different!

It is not that you couldn't have done anything different.
You simply didn't want to do anything different.

If you had done something different, God would have known it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I do not reject basic logic .. explain, please

If God is all knowing and all powerful and all knowing then the poster's putting on a red shirt was set when he made the world and God knew it. If the poster wanted to put on a blue one it would not matter. God created the world in such a way that he put on a red one. And if God didn't want him to put on a red shirt he could have made the universe in such a way that he didn't.

Omnipotence and omniscience eliminate free choice.

 

[Subduction Zone]

That lacks any insight in the issue.
God did not make anybody put on a red shirt..
That is what they wanted to do.

Want has nothing to do with it. You are the one claiming omniscience and omnipotence. They eliminate free will.

Your personal beliefs may be triggering some cognitive dissonance right now.

 

[muhammad_isa]

If God is all knowing and all powerful and all knowing then the poster's putting on a red shirt was set when he made the world and God knew it..

What do you mean by "set"?
Almighty God did not set/fix events. The events are fixed by us.
As G-d is not part of the space-time continuum, His frame of reference is different from ours.
He doesn't just see the present and "remember" the past, He sees all 4 dimensions simultaneously. [ Length x Width x Height x Time ]
God is not a person, He is a spiritual entity.

The universe, to G-d, is like a 4 dimensional "bottle"..
That is why He is omniscient.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I know that you might find it "unbelievable", but our minds are finite.
Our senses are finite. The infinite can be difficult to envisage.
Nevertheless, we are capable of knowing that the infinite is a valid concept.

 

[Subduction Zone]

What do you mean by "set"?
Almighty God did not set/fix events. The events are fixed by us.
As G-d is not part of the space-time continuum, His frame of reference is different from ours.
He doesn't just see the present and "remember" the past, He sees all 4 dimensions simultaneously. [ Length x Width x Height x Time ]
God is not a person, He is a spiritual entity.

The universe, to G-d, is like a 4 dimensional "bottle"..
That is why He is omniscient

Then you just claimed that he is not omniscient. You can't have it both ways.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Then you just claimed that he is not omniscient..

No I haven't.
"Time" is not an absolute phenomenon. Time is part of the created universe.
[ space-time continuum ]
Einstein showed us that it is only our perception.

When you say "God knew before", this employs a concept that is part of our perception of time appearing to flow from the past towards the future.
Almighty God does not share that perception.
i.e. He is not subject to that which He created

Almighty God created the universe .. and so our sense of time "belongs", or emanates from Him.

 

[Subduction Zone]

No I haven't.
"Time" is not an absolute phenomenon. Time is part of the created universe.
[ space-time continuum ]
Einstein showed us that it is only our perception.

When you say "God knew before", this employs a concept that is part of our perception of time appearing to flow from the past towards the future.
Almighty God does not share that perception.
i.e. He is not subject to that which He created

Almighty God created the universe .. and so our sense of time "belongs", or emanates from Him.

Sorry, but that is hand waving and special pleading. Along with misunderstanding what Einstein revealed about time.

 

[rational experiences]

You ever notice that nobody ever replies to your posts?

It's because they can't make any sense of them.

Take the hint.

I'm not being nasty. I'm telling you that no one can make any sense of what you say. It's a waste of your own time.

Do you notice that the forum owns a lot of interviewers looking for God!

 

[muhammad_isa]

..Along with misunderstanding what Einstein revealed about time.

Perhaps you'd like to enlighten us all.
What exactly have I said that contradicts what Einstein said?

 

[rational experiences]

Time is light and life by hu man conscious concepts.

Without light life dies.

Hence to be consciousness science says light has to exist. As to live means you own an experience beyond merely constantly maintaining one form only forever....energy.

We are sperm ovary baby toddler Child teenager adult and elderly.

Living they state is to expend energy as light by the sun is diminishing.

So once the sun was giant large and expanding. Now it cools becoming smaller.

Science hence says to go into the past as a Human is to become smaller.

Life became smaller as expansion cooled. Messes with your thoughts.

As said the human. As consciousness in light living.

Yet in light living you also die.

So his owned conundrum what is God. Where is God.

Outside of time means not in light and not living. By human terms.

Yet men teach the form of God I determine is eternal living and never died.

So your mind asks how can you live and be conscious without light?

Because the eternal is not any state of human understanding. A basic accept and have faith is asked of us.

So then you ask why have faith .....

Our father taught us as he saw the eternal spirit as our human mother emerged after he had.

He taught us all.

Basic advice.

 

[KWED]

If you don't know the answer to that question, I respectfully end
our exchange.
Bye

So you don't know.
Fair enough. But why not just say so?

 

[KWED]

Sheldon: Do you accept that fixed means it cannot be changed?
Me: Yes
Sheldon:Then ipso facto your belief negates free will, or indeed any autonomy at all.

I shall let you go now.
I have spent several posts explaining my understanding.
You think it's wrong .. that's your prerrogative.

Sheldon: it was your claim that "the future must be fixed." If you can't see what that means for the misnomer of free will, then that's not my problem at all. I don't believe free will exists anyway.

OK .. Bye

All you have done here is repeatedly claim that 'an inability to alter the course of future events' and 'free will' are not mutually exclusive - but you have repeatedly failed to explain how.
You just keep asserting that "just because we can't alter the course of future events doesn't mean we don't have free will". And some vague handwaving about the past being fixed as well.

I get the feeling you have read something somewhere and not fully understood it, so you are struggling to explain it.
As you are so fond of Einstein, allow me to quote... "If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough.".

 

[KWED]

Using analogies to compare what a human would/should do to what God would/should do is the the fallacy of false equivalence since God is not equivalent to a human. This is a logical fallacy commonly committed by atheists.

False equivalence is a logical fallacy in which an equivalence is drawn between two subjects based on flawed or false reasoning. This fallacy is categorized as a fallacy of inconsistency.[1] A colloquial expression of false equivalency is "comparing apples and oranges".

This fallacy is committed when one shared trait between two subjects is assumed to show equivalence, especially in order of magnitude, when equivalence is not necessarily the logical result.[2] False equivalence is a common result when an anecdotal similarity is pointed out as equal, but the claim of equivalence doesn't bear scrutiny because the similarity is based on oversimplification or ignorance of additional factors.

False equivalence - Wikipedia

Not so fast!
If people claim that we get our morality from god, then there is a clear equivalence on moral issues.

Or are you claiming that god's moral framework do not apply to him?
And if you are, why should they apply to us?

 

[KWED]

Yes.

So god didn't know which shirt he would choose.
Yikes.