Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[Trailblazer]

What's your point, I did look at it, and you have not addressed my objection at all. What is the objective difference?

What do you mean by objective difference?

 

[Trailblazer]

That's not knowledge, that's blindly accepting claims in a book, as I said.

What comes through the Messengers of God and gets recorded in scriptures is the only knowledge you will ever have about God because that is the only way God communicates to humans.

It is not blindly accepted unless one has blind faith. I don't have blind faith because my faith is evidence-based.

 

[TheBrokenSoul]

What comes through the Messengers of God and gets recorded in scriptures is the only knowledge you will ever have about God because that is the only way God communicates to humans.

It is not blindly accepted unless one has blind faith. I don't have blind faith because my faith is evidence-based.

I have never believed that God communicates to humans but rather messengers speak thoughts of truths , what would God want .

 

[ratiocinator]

You are incorrect , according to the big bang , nothing existed before the big bang ,not even space which is an impossibility .

Nope. When people say "nothing existed before the big bang", they don't mean that there was some time at which nothing existed, they mean that "before the big bang" does not refer to a time. It's like saying that there is nothing on the surface of the earth that is north of the north pole. Even that is speculative because it relies on using general relativity alone. What we would need to be more certain is a quantum theory of gravity.

The theory s : ''The model describes how the universe expanded from an initial state of high density and temperature'',

And so it does. It does not (as it stands) describe events before that hot dense state.

please provide prequel physics and evidence of how this high dense state was formed ?

There are plenty of hypotheses, by why should I? I don't need a scientific alternative to dismiss god as baseless storytelling. An unknown does not make your favourite baseless story any more believable.

Please don't make false claim on a religious forum .

I didn't. You should have cited the source you quoted and actually read more of it:-

"One of the common misconceptions about the Big Bang model is that it fully explains the origin of the universe. However, the Big Bang model does not describe how energy, time, and space were caused, but rather it describes the emergence of the present universe from an ultra-dense and high-temperature initial state."

-- Big Bang - Wikipedia​

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If God is all knowing and all powerful and all knowing then the poster's putting on a red shirt was set when he made the world and God knew it. If the poster wanted to put on a blue one it would not matter. God created the world in such a way that he put on a red one. And if God didn't want him to put on a red shirt he could have made the universe in such a way that he didn't.

Omnipotence and omniscience eliminate free choice.

These subjects have been explained in detail by Abdul'baha.

If you choose, you can read and consider what is offered. It would require a choice to want to understand this though, this is one, but there are a lot more.

Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

Free will has limits, but prior knowledge of what happens, is not the cause of what happens, the cause was our choices.

Thus God gives a Messenger and a Message. We have the choice to accept and live that Message. God knows what our choices are and how we will react when given the choices, but they are our choices.

Our fate, our judgement is based on our choices in life, God's ultimate plan has included those choices.

Quran Qur’án 8:30 is a great meditation.

"And as the ones who have disbelieved were scheming to confine you, or kill you, or to drive you out, and they were scheming, and Allah was scheming; and Allah is The Most Charitable of schemers."

So an Example. God gave us Jesus and allowed all people to have a choice to accept or reject Christ and even allows man to Crucify His chosen Messenger. Even Jesus when given the task of giving that Message knew His own fate, yet still allowed people their own free will choice to accept Him. Yet God's Plan is for that Message to permeate all humanity and thus knowing what we choose enables the plan to unfold as per God's Will, as the choices we are given are designed to fulfil the major plan.

Same as this age. God has offered the most great peace in the mid to late 1800's, we have been given the choice and rejected that peace, so the next choice offered was the Lesser peace.

All our choices now point us towards that lesser peace either sooner or later, which is now required before a distant Most Great Peace.

The Bible also offers that this is all part of God's plan.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

We are created to know and love God, that is this life and why we are given its choices.

Regards Tony

 

[TheBrokenSoul]

And so it does. It does not (as it stands) describe events before that hot dense state.

-- Big Bang - Wikipedia​

As I said , the Big Bang jumps from nothing to some thing occupying the reference frame . Science can't explain anymore than this which in essence is just stating the obvious , there was nothing but now there is something .

This is why any God theory will always be equally as true as the science because it is physically impossible to create a high dense state from no thing.

 

[CG Didymus]

I have explained why the various religions contradict each other and it is a drop dead logical explanation.

Yes, that the "original" message got lost and people added things in. Or, the ever popular, "Well, that's metaphorical and not literal."

But are there any of all the Scriptures of Hinduism and Buddhism that Baha'is consider accurate? Or are they all "bunk"? Or, even with Christianity, there was lots of gospel and other writings about Jesus, but the Church leaders had to decide which ones were "bunk" and which ones were true. Just because these Church leaders called them true, did that make them true? Plus, with in those canonized writings there's contradictions. There's contradiction between them and what the Hebrew Bible teaches. People wrote these stories, so it's all "traditions" of men. So what's even more "drop dead" logical, to me, is that these were just religious stories made up by people. Some had one God or many Gods. Some had devils and demons. And since they came from different people in different cultures and times, with different religious beliefs, they all were very different.

You're explanation is the Baha'i explanation, which is designed to support the belief in progressive revelation. So all "apparent" contradictory teachings and beliefs are explained away to show a consistency with Baha'i beliefs. Which maybe be true, but is it "drop dead" logical? Not to me. I still think that it's all religious myth made up by the religious leaders in that culture. Which, might make it...

I have seen little to no logic in your explanation.

My sugested explanation - that it's all bunk - is much simpler and more logical.

Now is "bunk" really that far from the Baha'i explanation? Again, the resurrection story... if a person isn't a born-again Christian or a Baha'i, wouldn't "bunk" be a good explanation? That the gospel writers made it up. And what do Baha'is say? That the story is fictional. It's not to be believed literally. It is being metaphorical. And to take it literally is false, or is "bunk". But, if a person isn't a Baha'i, is that metaphorical explanation really "drop dead" logical? For you as a Baha'i sure... it is such a great way to explain it. But to an Atheist? The resurrection, Jesus ascending into the sky, walking on water, the virgin birth? Wouldn't the simpler and a more logical explanation be that is myth. It is fiction. It is bunk. Making all those fictional events in the Jesus story metaphorical is way harder than to just write them off as being made up false stories.

That all religion is bunk is not logical at all because religion is the backbone of society and the cause of all great civilizations, including morality, so a logical person would try to somehow reconcile all the great religions and figure out why religious people do not agree.

Unbelievable. What was the religious "backbone" of the Chinese, Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Aztec, Assyrian Empires?

What was the religious "backbone" of England when they went out and conquered and colonized several places around the world? The Church of England? And that Church was so great that people that had different Christian beliefs moved out of England and came to the Americas. And most all of them believed Jesus was God, so how right were they? According to Baha'is, they were wrong. But they did create a great civilization. They took whatever land away from the native people and put them on reservations. They enslaved people to work for them. They didn't make any one religion the state religion and made a separation between Church and State. Now why would that be? Maybe because having a religion run things wasn't working out very well.

Theoretically now... We have the possibility of a religion that can be fair and just, the Baha'i Faith. But we still have the same problem as with other religions that have ruled the people... They too, are just people and are they really going to be free from being corrupted?

 

[KWED]

You think that Darwin's evolution theory is scientific fact ? That is simply not true , Darwin presented a good theory but didn't supply any real evidence .

Firstly, you are confusing "facts" and "explanations".
Evolution is an observable fact. The Theory of Evolution is the best explanation for that observation.
Secondly, it has not been "Darwin's Theory" for 150 years. There has been constant work involving new evidence and improved explanations. Darwin would not recognise it today.

The fact is the history before present conceptions is only viable if there is an observer too record that history .

Nonsense. There is plenty of evidence that verifies the Theory of Evolution. It is actually one of the most evidentially-heavy scientific explanations we have.

Also, the idea that unless there was someone there to observe and record an event, it didn't happen is such obvious nonsense that it beggars belief.

 

[CG Didymus]

We are created to know and love God, that is this life and why we are given its choices.

Do Baha'is believe that God does help guide people to make the right choices? I know some Christians do. They feel that the Holy Spirit is in them and guiding them.

But that create a problem... A Christian might feel he is being guided to preach Jesus to a Baha'i. And the Baha'i feels God has led him to teach the Faith to this Christian. They both think that what they believe is the truth. The Christian wants to save the soul of the Baha'i and get him to admit he is a poor lost sinner in need of salvation. The Baha'i? Tell me what a Baha'is should say?

 

[Subduction Zone]

These subjects have been explained in detail by Abdul'baha.

If you choose, you can read and consider what is offered. It would require a choice to want to understand this though, this is one, but there are a lot more.

Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

Free will has limits, but prior knowledge of what happens, is not the cause of what happens, the cause was our choices.

Thus God gives a Messenger and a Message. We have the choice to accept and live that Message. God knows what our choices are and how we will react when given the choices, but they are our choices.

Our fate, our judgement is based on our choices in life, God's ultimate plan has included those choices.

Quran Qur’án 8:30 is a great meditation.

"And as the ones who have disbelieved were scheming to confine you, or kill you, or to drive you out, and they were scheming, and Allah was scheming; and Allah is The Most Charitable of schemers."

So an Example. God gave us Jesus and allowed all people to have a choice to accept or reject Christ and even allows man to Crucify His chosen Messenger. Even Jesus when given the task of giving that Message knew His own fate, yet still allowed people their own free will choice to accept Him. Yet God's Plan is for that Message to permeate all humanity and thus knowing what we choose enables the plan to unfold as per God's Will, as the choices we are given are designed to fulfil the major plan.

Same as this age. God has offered the most great peace in the mid to late 1800's, we have been given the choice and rejected that peace, so the next choice offered was the Lesser peace.

All our choices now point us towards that lesser peace either sooner or later, which is now required before a distant Most Great Peace.

The Bible also offers that this is all part of God's plan.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

We are created to know and love God, that is this life and why we are given its choices.

Regards Tony

Sorry I do not put too much stock in apologetics, whether Christian or otherwise.

 

[TheBrokenSoul]

Evolution is an observable fact.

A 62 year old man and a 62 year ape sat in a bar having a Banana milk shake together . The man says to the ape, '' we don't observably look the same'' ., the ape replies ''that is because we are not the same species'' .

100 years later the same event occurred , the ape was still an ape and the man was still a man .

Can you please provide this observation evidence you claim to have of an ape turning into a man ?

This does not mean some persons drawing of evolution .

 

[ratiocinator]

As I said , the Big Bang jumps from nothing to some thing occupying the reference frame .

No, it does not. The idea of nothing existing at any time is incoherent because (space-)time is not nothing. The scope of the current big bang theory does not cover events before a certain time after when when the equations of general relativity become singular (indicating that it cannot be applied).

Science does not say that something came from nothing, it simply says that we run out of tested theories once we extrapolate back to a certain time. Current science has plenty of unknowns but none of them make baseless religious claims any more believable.

This is why any God theory will always be equally as true as the science because it is physically impossible to create a high dense state from no thing.

Nonsense. Science admits its limits, while religion just makes things up. That the universe was sneezed out of the nose of the the Great Green Arkleseizure, or manufactured by pan-dimensional, purple pixies, all called Eric, have exactly as much credibility as any god you dream up.

And you're still ignoring the point that any god is also totally devoid of any explanation as to why it exists as the universe as a whole is, so dreaming it up doesn't really get you anywhere in terms of an explanation.

The trouble is that you're misrepresenting science as claiming to have an answer it admits it doesn't have (yet) and then trying to compare that to a baseless story.

 

[Subduction Zone]

A 62 year old man and a 62 year ape sat in a bar having a Banana milk shake together . The man says to the ape, '' we don't observably look the same'' ., the ape replies ''that is because we are not the same species'' .

100 years later the same event occurred , the ape was still an ape and the man was still a man .

Can you please provide this observation evidence you claim to have of an ape turning into a man ?

This does not mean some persons drawing of evolution .

Your joke fails. Here is its equivalent:

A German shepherd and a dog are at a bar sharing a gnaw on a cow's thigh bone. The German shepherd says to the dog, " we don't observably look the same". the dog replies "that is because we are not the same breed".

100 years later the same event occurred. the dog was still a dog and the German shepherd was still a German shepherd.

Can you please provide this observation evidence you claim to have a dog turning into a German shepherd?

Do you understand your error now?

 

[ratiocinator]

Can you please provide this observation evidence you claim to have of an ape turning into a man ?

Humans are still apes, and if you think a non-human ape turned into a human ape, you have no idea at all.

However, here is some of the evidence: Genesis and the Genome (pdf).

 

[TheBrokenSoul]

The trouble is that you're misrepresenting science as claiming to have an answer it admits it doesn't have (yet) and then trying to compare that to a baseless story.

Indeed I can explain the only set of physics possible in the formation of matter , the epoch of time . However , my version of God is based on our own existence , physics did not form complex life forms with unique dimensions and the ability to defy physics . We are seriously out of place in this observable part of the Universe . (Turns up at the wedding in a clown costume)

 

[KWED]

Seriously? It would rule out me making any other choice obviously.

I think the problem some religionists are having is that they imagine god leaning over our shoulder saying "Nope, you can't chose that one" if we attempt to choose an option that he hasn't foreseen, or something along those lines, rather than the unconscious and automatic inevitability of our seemingly free and uninfluenced choice that infallible omniscience implies.
But as Dr Gregory House said... "If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people".

 

[ratiocinator]

However , my version of God is based on our own existence , physics did not form complex life forms with unique dimensions and the ability to defy physics . We are seriously out of place in this observable part of the Universe .

In what way do you imagine we defy physics? We have comprehensive evidence of how complex life evolved.

 

[KWED]

Please don't make false claim on a religious forum .

Given that there are followers of more than one religion on here, most of them are making false claims, by definition.

 

[TheBrokenSoul]

Humans are still apes, and if you think a non-human ape turned into a human ape, you have no idea at all.

However, here is some of the evidence: Genesis and the Genome (pdf).

Humans are not apes , there is many dissimilar characteristics . Besides the point , physics didn't create the ape either , so what did if not a God ?

 

[KWED]

Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library
Free will has limits, but prior knowledge of what happens, is not the cause of what happens, the cause was our choices.

Thus God gives a Messenger and a Message. We have the choice to accept and live that Message. God knows what our choices are and how we will react when given the choices, but they are our choices.

Our fate, our judgement is based on our choices in life, God's ultimate plan has included those choices.

Quran Qur’án 8:30 is a great meditation.

"And as the ones who have disbelieved were scheming to confine you, or kill you, or to drive you out, and they were scheming, and Allah was scheming; and Allah is The Most Charitable of schemers."

So an Example. God gave us Jesus and allowed all people to have a choice to accept or reject Christ and even allows man to Crucify His chosen Messenger. Even Jesus when given the task of giving that Message knew His own fate, yet still allowed people their own free will choice to accept Him. Yet God's Plan is for that Message to permeate all humanity and thus knowing what we choose enables the plan to unfold as per God's Will, as the choices we are given are designed to fulfil the major plan.

Same as this age. God has offered the most great peace in the mid to late 1800's, we have been given the choice and rejected that peace, so the next choice offered was the Lesser peace.

All our choices now point us towards that lesser peace either sooner or later, which is now required before a distant Most Great Peace.

The Bible also offers that this is all part of God's plan.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

We are created to know and love God, that is this life and why we are given its choices.

Regards Tony

This has already been addressed. Please keep up.