Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[Sheldon]

Thou shall not kill !

Is that a false statement or something God would want if there is a God ?

Take a cursory look at the deity depicted in the bible, if it thinks murder is wrong then that is not what the bible depicts.

It tortured a newborn baby to death, just because it was angry at the parents conceiving it in an adulterous relationship. It took 7 days to die after "god smote it". If a human did that what we call that?

I keep saying it, but I am so glad that there isn't a shred of evidence for any deity.

 

[Sheldon]

What do you mean by objective difference?

Do you speak English?

 

[Sheldon]

What comes through the Messengers of God and gets recorded in scriptures is the only knowledge you will ever have about God because that is the only way God communicates to humans.

It is not blindly accepted unless one has blind faith. I don't have blind faith because my faith is evidence-based.

It isn't knowledge unless you don't what knowledge means as well, and you can't demsonrate a shred of evidence to support your claim, you have admitted this repeatedly.

If I claim to believe I can become invisible, and fly to the moon, that isn't evidence for the claim; and it doesn't matter if a billion people make the same unevidenced claim.

 

[CG Didymus]

And his claim is completely illogical and irrational, because an omnipotent God can allow anything He wants to allow and what God knows does not constrain free will in any way. Case closed.

So God is watching from some spiritual dimension. So one thing... Does God have ways to intervene and change a person's decision on what choice to make? Or, does God just let things play out without getting involved? Anyway, God is watching. He sees a guy put a seal on a rocket, but the seal is faulty or the guy put it in wrong. The rocket takes off and explodes.

Then there is a teenager that gets an automatic rifle and heads to the school where his mother works. He shoots her and several of the kids in the class. And God watches. But, he already knew that was going happen. He knew the things that had built up in that teenagers head that drove him to do this. But, God let those things go.

Then there are several guys that all believe in God and they have taken flying lessons and hijack a jetliner. Those guys probably prayed to God a lot before and during that time. They fly into a building. And God just watches? I don't know? Let's re-open the case. God knew it. Could have stopped it. But let it happen.

So he's okay with people hurting and killing each other? And, sometimes, doing it because they believe that is what God wants? He created this world. He created people with their flaws. This is what he got. And... because he knows all... this must be what he wanted? No, supposedly he wants people to love him and to love each other?

But who is this God? This is how some people define "God" today. But through the centuries, the concepts and definitions of who God is and what he wants have changed. And even today, there are many different ideas about God. So who and what God is depends on who you talk to. Case is not closed. We still have no proof that your idea of God or some of the other ideas are even real.

Actually, I'd prefer a God I could talk to, even if it's just with in my head. A God that shows his love and gives me guidance on what decisions to make. No, wait a minute, there is that kind of God. And he guided those guys in that jet plane. And guided people in Salem Massachusetts to burn some woman up. Was that really God guiding them? I'm sure they thought so.

 

[Trailblazer]

Theoretically now... We have the possibility of a religion that can be fair and just, the Baha'i Faith. But we still have the same problem as with other religions that have ruled the people... They too, are just people and are they really going to be free from being corrupted?

No, we will not have the same problems because Baha'u'llah put protections in place to prevent the Baha'i Faith from being corrupted. It is called the Covenant of Baha'u'llah.

The past is gone and eventually everyone will adhere to one religion and it won't matter what people believed in the past. Till then, people can choose any religion they wish to or no religion at all.

“That which the Lord hath ordained as the sovereign remedy and mightiest instrument for the healing of all the world is the union of all its peoples in one universal Cause, one common Faith. This can in no wise be achieved except through the power of a skilled, an all-powerful and inspired Physician. This, verily, is the truth, and all else naught but error. Each time that Most Mighty Instrument hath come, and that Light shone forth from the Ancient Dayspring, He was withheld by ignorant physicians who, even as clouds, interposed themselves between Him and the world. It failed, therefore, to recover, and its sickness hath persisted until this day. They indeed were powerless to protect it, or to effect a cure, whilst He Who hath been the Manifestation of Power amongst men was withheld from achieving His purpose, by reason of what the hands of the ignorant physicians have wrought.”
The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, pp. 91-92

 

[Sheldon]

We are created to know and love God, that is this life and why we are given its choices.

Regards Tony

We weren't created, we evolved like all other living things, that is a scientific fact, evidenced beyond any reasonable or rational denial.

 

[Sheldon]

No, we will not have the same problems because Baha'u'llah put protections in place to prevent the Baha'i Faith from being corrupted. It is called the Covenant of Baha'u'llah.

The past is gone and eventually everyone will adhere to one religion and it won't matter what people believed in the past. Till then, people can choose any religion they wish to or no religion at all.

“That which the Lord hath ordained as the sovereign remedy and mightiest instrument for the healing of all the world is the union of all its peoples in one universal Cause, one common Faith. This can in no wise be achieved except through the power of a skilled, an all-powerful and inspired Physician. This, verily, is the truth, and all else naught but error. Each time that Most Mighty Instrument hath come, and that Light shone forth from the Ancient Dayspring, He was withheld by ignorant physicians who, even as clouds, interposed themselves between Him and the world. It failed, therefore, to recover, and its sickness hath persisted until this day. They indeed were powerless to protect it, or to effect a cure, whilst He Who hath been the Manifestation of Power amongst men was withheld from achieving His purpose, by reason of what the hands of the ignorant physicians have wrought.”
The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, pp. 91-92

None of that represents objective evidence of anything, can you really not tell the difference between bare assertion and objective evidence? Humans cobble this nonsense together, but it is pretty much meaningless.

 

[Sheldon]

An open mind with no answer is open to suggestions but an open mind should never ignore reality .

Open minded means you treat all ideas without bias, what is the objective difference between the competing claims theists make for different deities from different religions?

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes, I am claiming that God is not subject to morality. Only humans are subject to morality.
God is by nature all-good, so God cannot be immoral, that is logically impossible.
God sets the moral framework for humans because God knows what is moral and immoral human behavior since God created humans with a purpose in mind.

Yes, that's the God you believe to be real. How about those Gods that came down to Earth and had sex with human women? Hmmm? I wonder... did Aphrodite fool around with humans?

But I know, I know, those stories about those Gods were myth.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I think the problem some religionists are having is that they imagine god leaning over our shoulder saying "Nope, you can't chose that one" if we attempt to choose an option that he hasn't foreseen..

Meaningless drivel..

You have already said that you don't believe in free-will.
..so how can you "attempt to choose".
You are fooling yourself. You are just making arguments that seem smart to you, while in fact, they aren't logically sound.

Either you think we have free-will, or you don't.
Which is it?

 

[TheBrokenSoul]

there isn't a shred of evidence for any deity.

Logical possibilities do not require evidence . If you cannot produce evidence to the contrary then it is always wise to keep an open mind . The possibility of a God is a real possibility because of the science shortfall in information .
Unless science can explain how energy can manifest from nothing there will always be the possibility of a God . Unless science can explain life and conscious beings there will be always the possibility of a God .

Why can't you just accept this possibility ?

 

[Trailblazer]

Actually, I'd prefer a God I could talk to, even if it's just with in my head. A God that shows his love and gives me guidance on what decisions to make. No, wait a minute, there is that kind of God. And he guided those guys in that jet plane. And guided people in Salem Massachusetts to burn some woman up. Was that really God guiding them? I'm sure they thought so.

There is such a God but He did not guide those people you mentioned. People can believe whatever they want to believe but that does not make it true.

 

[Sheldon]

As I said , the Big Bang jumps from nothing to some thing occupying the reference frame .

No it doesn't, you can Google this and getting a better and more accurate understanding of this theory.

Big Bang - Wikipedia

Science can't explain anymore than this which in essence is just stating the obvious , there was nothing but now there is something .

That is a spectacularly ignorant claim, this is just one scientific theory, and again it does not remotely claim the creationist straw man you keep trying to assign it.

This is why any God theory will always be equally as true as the science because it is physically impossible to create a high dense state from no thing.

There is no "god theory" it's an unevidenced superstition, and science is testable falsifiable objective empirical evidence, comparing that to theism, is like comparing a witch doctor to a brain surgeon. One more time, only you are claiming nothing exited prior to the big bang, the scientific theory does not claim this...

 

[CG Didymus]

I claim that God has infallible foreknowledge of what choice we will make, but I do not claim that we will make choices different from the choices God knows we will make.

Okay, one more time... In God's spiritual realm, he can see the beginning and end. Everything has already happened. And, since it ends the way he wants it to end, then is all the pain, suffering, diseases, natural disaster and all the rest of the bad stuff part of what he wanted? I know you don't want to blame God, but, still, if he's real, this is what he created. And since he allows it to happen, why isn't it what he wanted to happen to get to the end result? So he's to blame, but it was for a good reason. All the death and suffering he let happen and wanted to happen, because it will someday get us to finally turn to him and love each other?

 

[Trailblazer]

The vast majority of religionists have a very definite (and often contradictory) idea of god. Many of them, possibly all of them, are making false statements.

True, but logically speaking, that does not mean that none of them are making true statements.

 

[Sheldon]

Logical possibilities do not require evidence .

Your claim it is a logical possibility requires objective evidence. Only theist think you can prop up an imaginary unevidenced deity with unevidenced claims like this.

If you cannot produce evidence to the contrary then it is always wise to keep an open mind .

You have just described precisely an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy, and in the same post you are making rhetorical claims your guff is rational, hilarious.

The possibility of a God is a real possibility because of the science shortfall in information .

That is a god of the gaps polemic, using an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy, and thus it is by definition irrational. I shan't even comment on the hilariously redundant tautology. No belief is validated because it cannot be disproved, how many times must this be explained, it is a known logical fallacy, read the link.

Unless science can explain

Sigh, argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy.

how energy can manifest from nothing

Sigh, who says it cam e form nothing, that is a straw man fallacy you're parroting, because you don't know how idiotic the claim is.

there will always be the possibility of a God .

Another bare unevidenced claim.

Unless science can explain life and conscious beings there will be always the possibility of a God .

Sigh, argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy.

Why can't you just accept this possibility ?

Obviously because you have failed to demsonrate a shred of objective evidence it is in fact possible, and your arguments are demonstrably irrational, and worse you are entirely unware of that fact.

 

[TheBrokenSoul]

One more time, only you are claiming nothing exited prior to the big bang, the scientific theory does not claim this...

''
Expansion of space
Main articles: Friedmann–Lemaître–Robertson–Walker metric and Expansion of the universe
The expansion of the Universe was inferred from early twentieth century astronomical observations and is an essential ingredient of the Big Bang theory. Mathematically, general relativity describes spacetime by a metric, which determines the distances that separate nearby points. The points, which can be galaxies, stars, or other objects, are specified using a coordinate chart or "grid" that is laid down over all spacetime. The cosmological principle implies that the metric should be homogeneous and isotropic on large scales, which uniquely singles out the Friedmann–Lemaître–Robertson–Walker (FLRW) metric. This metric contains a scale factor, which describes how the size of the universe changes with time. This enables a convenient choice of a coordinate system to be made, called comoving coordinates. In this coordinate system, the grid expands along with the universe, and objects that are moving only because of the expansion of the universe remain at fixed points on the grid. While their coordinate distance (comoving distance) remains constant, the physical distance between two such co-moving points expands proportionally with the scale factor of the universe.[16]

The Big Bang is not an explosion of matter moving outward to fill an empty universe. Instead, space itself expands with time everywhere and increases the physical distances between comoving points. In other words, the Big Bang is not an explosion in space, but rather an expansion of space.[4] Because the FLRW metric assumes a uniform distribution of mass and energy, it applies to our universe only on large scales—local concentrations of matter such as our galaxy do not necessarily expand with the same speed as the whole Universe.[17]''

Quite clearly an inaccuracy I have put in bold . No , people think space itself is expanding when space has no physicality . People also say there is nothing outside of the expansion ,not even space .

 

[Sheldon]

I claim that God has infallible foreknowledge of what choice we will make,

Can you support your claim with any objective evidence?

 

[CG Didymus]

There is such a God but He did not guide those people you mentioned. People can believe whatever they want to believe but that does not make it true.

But that's the thing. They believe and I'm sure could feel God's guidance. Same thing with wars where it was Christian country against Christian country. Each probably thought God was on there side. And it is that kind of thinking that helped create the need for some people to make the choice, "Is that kind of God that allows such things even real?" And, if God is real, which choice he preferred people to have... to reject him and the religions saying they believe in him, or those that choose a religion that hated and killed others in the name of their God?

Anyway, it looks like this thread took off again. I tried to catch up. The time just flies by. I'll check in later. I hope you haven't over extended yourself again.

 

[Sheldon]

True, but only because God knows the choice we will make. God does not cause us to make that choice by knowing we will make it. We can make choices because we have free will to make choices.

It doesn't matter, if a deify knows the one choice we will make, then all other choices would be illusionary. Everything else is coloured bubbles you've created to put a square peg in a round hole.