Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[TheBrokenSoul]

As do I. You do know it was fictional right? This has to be a windup?

Of course I know it was fictional but you miss the point of the possibilities out there and the imagination .

 

[Sheldon]

You have to be nominated I imagine and then face a tough panel of judges .

Oh I think someone discovering scientific evidence that a deity is possible" is pretty much a shoe in.

 

[Sheldon]

Of course I know it was fictional but you miss the point of the possibilities out there and the imagination .

Explain it to me then, it's your claim, so you are responsible for providing a clear detailed explanation of why you think something is possible if it can be imagined. I can imagine a mermaid after all.

 

[Sheldon]

I thank God that someone who is actually logical showed up on this thread!

You relentlessly use known common logical fallacies in your posts, and repeat them even after they've been explained. This doesn't suggest to me you understand informal logic at all. Nothing in your claim is rational, as it contains an inherent contradiction, and unevidenced assumptions about a deity, that you can demsonrate no objective evidence for.

 

[Tiberius]

No, you were only bound to wear that shirt after you chose to wear it. God knew you would choose it because God is all-knowing.

Rubbish.

God knew I'd wear it ages ago. He could have told Issac Newton about it. God knew I would wear it from the very beginning of all of time. And from that instant, I was bound, because I could not do anything different.

 

[Tiberius]

He chose to run to the toilet, nobody made him.

It's not a choice.

It's 100% that he will run. If there is only one outcome, it's not a choice. By definition, a choice requires at least two outcomes, each of which has a non-zero probability. That does not apply in this case.

No, there was more than one possible outcome until you chose the red shirt. If you had chosen the blue shirt God would have foreseen that.

That logic doesn't hold up. If I had chosen the blue shirt, then the same logic would apply, I'd just be saying "blue" instead of "red."

 

[Tiberius]

That is what I said and it is not contradictory.

I have objective evidence that the Baha'i Faith is true, but I do not have objective evidence for the supernatural claims because there can be no objective evidence for supernatural claims.

But the Baha'i faith is built on those supernatural claims.

 

[TheBrokenSoul]

Explain it to me then, it's your claim, so you are responsible for providing a clear detailed explanation of why you think something is possible if it can be imagined. I can imagine a mermaid after all.

Do you understand neurological diversity ?

Once upon a time in history , existed a T-Rex , there was no humans . The T-Rex had small imagination but imagined each day something was going to come along for a tasty snack .
Anyway the T-Rex imagined these creatures on two legs that were pretty smart but never got to see these creatures before the T-Rex passed away .
So in the future these two legged creatures appeared from nowhere , they were called humans .
The T-Rex must have imagined them up .

Now can you understand that imagination can be factual ?

 

[TheBrokenSoul]

Oh I think someone discovering scientific evidence that a deity is possible" is pretty much a shoe in.

Discovering a miracle is pretty much evidence of a possible deity and the miracle of ourselves is pretty much evidence .

 

[Tiberius]

Of course everyone would not reach the same conclusion even if the evidence is real and valid. That is logically impossible because they would have to be clones in order to reach the same conclusion.

That's absolute rubbish.

Everyone reaches the same conclusion about what the speed of light is. Everyone reaches the same conclusion about the diameter of the moon. Everyone reaches the same conclusion about the value of pi.

It is actual verification because I verified it. Religious beliefs require no cross-checking.

Special pleading.

The only reason you claim it requires no cross checking is because if it did, it would fail instantly.

But very well, if that's how you want to play...

I have verified in exactly the same way that the Baha'i faith is completely wrong. Out of all currently known religions, it is the one fuyrtherest from the truth. I have verified this, and as you have said, it does not require cross checking. Since it is verified, you can't dispute it, and I have conclusively proven that the Baha'i faith is wrong.

I was wrong about it being about WWI and WWII and @Truthseeker9 corrected me:

Correction on gore on the banks of the Rhine:

O banks of the Rhine! We have seen you covered with gore, inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you; and you shall have another turn. And We hear the lamentations of Berlin, though she be today in conspicuous glory.

In one of His Tablets written before the first World War (1914–1918), ‘Abdu’l-Bahá explained that Bahá’u’lláh’s reference to having seen the banks of the Rhine “covered with gore” related to the Franco-Prussian War (1870–1871), and that there was more suffering to come. In God Passes By Shoghi Effendi states that the “oppressively severe treaty” that was imposed on Germany following its defeat in the first World War “provoked ‘the lamentations [of Berlin]’ which half a century before, had been ominously prophesied.”
Bahá’u’lláh, "The Kitáb-i-Aqdas", 90

Contrary to what is popularly believed among Baha'is, the "another turn" is World War I and the oppressive treaty after that was the "lamentations of Berlin".

No one noticed that "we have seen you" is in the past tense.

#2619 Truthseeker9

So the Germans were lamenting the gore along the banks of the Rhine, and this is a reference to the Franco-Prussian war?

The war that the Germans WON?

Please, tell me about the actual event where the banks opf the Rhine were covered in gore. Which side did the dead belong to? Were they dead French or dead Germans?

The religions were not wrong. Only the man-made doctrines of those religions were wrong.

Spoiler: ALL religions are man made.

Not all scriptures describe reality, as some scriptures are metaphorical. For example, the following is is one metaphorical meaning of the story of Adam and Eve.

“Adam is the spirit of Adam, and Eve is His soul; the tree is the human world, and the serpent is that attachment to this world which constitutes sin, and which has infected the descendants of Adam. Christ by His holy breezes saved men from this attachment and freed them from this sin. The sin in Adam is relative to His position. Although from this attachment there proceed results, nevertheless, attachment to the earthly world, in relation to attachment to the spiritual world, is considered as a sin. The good deeds of the righteous are the sins of the Near Ones. This is established. So bodily power is not only defective in relation to spiritual power; it is weakness in comparison. In the same way, physical life, in comparison with eternal life in the Kingdom, is considered as death. So Christ called the physical life death, and said: “Let the dead bury their dead.” 8 Though those souls possessed physical life, yet in His eyes that life was death.

This is one of the meanings of the biblical story of Adam. Reflect until you discover the others.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 126

You can read the whole chapter on this link: 30: ADAM AND EVE

So you have an interpretation that says it is metaphorical. So what? That doesn't prove it WAS metaphorical, it only proves that some people think it was. There are plenty of other people who think it is literal.

That is possible since they can never be proven true.

At least you agree on that.

 

[Tiberius]

It doesn't. It is something with a possibility of zero..
..but it doesn't mean that you have not made a choice of your own free-will.
It simply means that G-d KNOWS what you want to choose.

If it's a chjoice then there needs to be more than one option, and each option needs to have some non-sero probability.

So it's not a choice.

Now, please go to THIS post, pick any one of the arguemnts for God you listed, and I will tell you why it is not a valid argument.

 

[Tiberius]

Prior to putting on the Red shirt the option to put on one of multicoloure(God's Choice for us) was also given, the choice became ours to put on the red only.

Each time we choose to put on the red, the multicoloured is still available.

Regards Tony

If God knows I'm not going to choose it, then no, it's not available.

 

[CG Didymus]

Once again, this manifests itself in cognitive dissonance in some atheists. Simple ideas just cannot be gotten across no matter how hare one tries.

It's rare when someone really has an open mind. Baha'is and Atheists, I'm sure, have some things that they might have not believe completely but find it hard to admit. But I think it's worse with believers in a religion. Literal believing Christian, I think, are a good example. Where do they draw the line to what's literal and what's not? It's probably hard for some to accept a young Earth, the six day creation, and lots of things in Genesis. Some might have a problem with the beliefs that only those that have accepted the saving grace of God and believe that Jesus paid for their sins, will go to heaven. Everybody else, even some who call themselves Christians, will go to hell. But will they admit it?

Baha'is don't have as many hard to swallow beliefs, but they are expected to believe everything the Baha'i Faith teaches is true. What do they do when they have doubts? Baha'is time and time again maintain beliefs about certain interpretations of prophecies. They go on and on about how progressive revelation is true. And now with God having absolute knowledge of what will happen, but isn't the "cause" of what happened. But they are all just beliefs. Do you have any doubts? Now that you're already a Baha'i do you go back and research something that doesn't sit well with you? Or, do you just block it out of your mind the best you can and say to yourself, "Well, the Baha'i Faith is the truth from God, so it must be true"?

Maybe something you said has struck an Atheist as true, and they think, "Hmmm? That does make sense"? But they don't want to admit it. But will they follow up and research it out? Or, just try and erase it from their thoughts?

I think it's harder for people in religions to admit doubts. But then there is also the problem of moral behavior. Religious people all have moral codes they are supposed to live up to. Not to lie, cheat and steal. With Christians not even to look at someone with lust or hate. But they do. So unless they admit it, and who wants to do that, they are going to carry that knowledge with them. Do they feel guilty and tell God that they won't do again? But then do it again? I think that does happen to some people. They like the religion. They believe in the religion, but they can't follow all the rules. So what do some of them do? They keep it inside. With Baha'is, a person that's has never come out would be an example of this. Should they come out or just keep quiet?

Lots of stuff messes with our heads. And some people are more open about it than others. But I think we all have some sort of cognitive dissonance problems.

 

[CG Didymus]

Then it's better not to repeat the same point. I usually leave threads when we are going in the same circle more then twice.

I wouldn't be surprised if half these pages weren't about proof and evidence for God. Which was no objective proof, but there is proof. And that proof was the messengers of God, especially Baha'u'llah. His life and character, his mission and his writing are all proof that he must have been sent from God. And, since he says that God is real, then that is proof and evidence that God, in fact, is real.

I don't think you were involved in that in this thread, maybe in others. But as a Twelver Seeker, do you have any comments on your beliefs about Baha'u'llah, and, I guess it is just as important, on the Bab? Are they maybe manifestations of God? Are they definitely not? Or, you don't what to get into it, because it will just go round and round for another 100 pages?

 

[Sheldon]

That is what I said and it is not contradictory.

I have objective evidence that the Baha'i Faith is true, but I do not have objective evidence for the supernatural claims because there can be no objective evidence for supernatural claims.

It certainly sounds like a contradiction to me, and I've not seen you present any objective evidence at all. only bare claims that texts were written by "messengers from god" which is not evidence.

 

[Sheldon]

Do you understand neurological diversity ?

Once upon a time in history , existed a T-Rex , there was no humans . The T-Rex had small imagination but imagined each day something was going to come along for a tasty snack .
Anyway the T-Rex imagined these creatures on two legs that were pretty smart but never got to see these creatures before the T-Rex passed away .
So in the future these two legged creatures appeared from nowhere , they were called humans .
The T-Rex must have imagined them up .

Now can you understand that imagination can be factual ?

No, that's meaningless gibberish, and as I explained I can imagine a mermaid, does that mean mermaids are possible? I'm more convinced than ever this is a windup.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I do not think we always do what we WANT to do. Sometimes we do things we do not want to do because we are compelled to do them or out of a sense of duty. Often, that is the only reason I am on this forum.

That is true.
That is not what @KWED meant, though.
I think he was implying we can't choose what we want to choose,
because we have to choose what "God has foreseen".

..which is illogical and ridiculous
We choose what we want to choose, and quite obviously, our choice has been made.
We therefore can't choose any other option.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I could not do something different to what God had already foreseen!

Of course you can't. That is because you don't want to, and God knows that.
He knows that because He sees the whole of created time as if it was the past

 

[CG Didymus]

Another translation.

Yusuf Ali
Did ye think that ye would enter Heaven without Allah testing those of you who fought hard (In His Cause) and remained steadfast

Imam Iskender Ali Mihr
Did you suppose that you would enter Paradise before Allah had tested those of you who really strived and tested those who are the patient?

This is not saying Allah does not know the future, I see it is saying that even the believers are tested.

Regards Tony

So does God set up the test? If he does, how many times does he keep testing the person? Are the tests progressively harder? What if someone passes several of the tests, and the last one, the hardest one, he fails? And, since God knew already which tests he would pass and which one he'd fail on, why did God keep testing? And, I suppose, giving your life to the Cause would be the ultimate test. Gee, that's really swell. You're dead, but you passed the test.

And how many people did give their lives preaching and teaching false beliefs and lost their lives doing it? Things like going to some jungle tribe and saying that Jesus is God. And then getting speared. Who was that God whispering in their ear, "Do you love me? Then go on a mission to teach those poor lost souls that are being deceived by Satan to believe in some primitive false religion. Go there and tell them the truth... that God is a Trinity"

And then, I'm sure it's happened. A Christian goes off to a jungle tribe and finds other Christians with different beliefs and then a Baha'i shows up. They are all there because they think God is testing them... to see if they'd give up everything to go teach the "word" of God. But in this case, assuming Baha'is are right, the others are teaching a false message. Religions all put their followers to tests to see how sincere they are. But are all religions sincerely from God?

 

[muhammad_isa]

The choices were available, the knowledge of those choices was not the cause of them, that cause was our free will.

That is correct.