Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[Tiberius]

In the end it is appears just to be a difference in the way we see the topic.

The choices were available, the knowledge of those choices was not the cause of them, that cause was our free will.

Abdul'baha gave a few talks on this subject and this aspect supports your thoughts.

"....Our meaning is that the choice of good and evil belongs to man, but that under all circumstances he is dependent upon the life-sustaining assistance of Divine Providence. The sovereignty of God is great indeed, and all are held captive in the grasp of His power. The servant can do nothing of his own will alone: God is almighty and all-powerful and bestows His assistance upon all creation..."

It is from this talk, "Free Will and its Limits".

Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

Regards Tony

No, the choices were NOT available.

If I weart the red shirt tomorrow, then God knew that I would wear it a hundred years ago. And if God knows that it is 100% that I will wear the red shirt and 0% that I will wear the blue shirt, then I do not have a choice. The blue shirt is not an available option.

 

[TheBrokenSoul]

No, that's meaningless gibberish, and as I explained I can imagine a mermaid, does that mean mermaids are possible? I'm more convinced than ever this is a windup.

Quite clearly your neurological diversity cannot ''compute'' diversity .

Ok , you can imagine a Mermaid , how far in distance do you stretch that imagination ? If you only consider our oceans , that is shallow thinking .

 

[Tiberius]

That's true, but you missed my point.....
If you had done something different God would have foreseen that.

That doesn't change my point at all.

If I had chosen the blue shirt, then God would have foreseen the blue shirt and I would still be unable to do anything different.

You seem to fail to realise that God knows the outcome AHEAD OF TIME. God knew what I would wear before I was even born. And if what I wear is set in stone before I was even born, then how is it a choice I make?

 

[CG Didymus]

Biblical prophecy constantly fails. i do not know of any valid prophecies. One thing that one must realize first is that there are reasonable rules for prophesy.

And by Baha'is saying that God knows exactly what is going to happen doesn't help them. One of their most "accurate" prophecies is the ones that can be made into 1260 years. 1844 lands right on year 1260 of the Islamic calendar. All they had to do it make it lunar years. But is that what the prophecy says? Take the days and make them lunar years? But then why start with year one, the Hegira? Does the prophecy say that, or that is the only starting date that will end in 1844? Then who's coming in 1844? Jesus? Baha'u'llah? No, it is the forerunner, the Bab. Then six different things happen that are all made to last 1260 years. All starting with the Hegira and ending in 1844. But none of the things began and ended in those years. But Baha'is don't care. That's what their religion teaches, and they can't be wrong.

Abdul Baha's interpretation of Rev 12...

Verse 4. “And the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour the child as soon as it was born.” 3 As we have before explained, this woman is the Law of God. The dragon was standing near the woman to devour her child, and this child was the promised Manifestation, the offspring of the Law of Muḥammad. The Umayyads were always waiting to get possession of the Promised One, Who was to come from the line of Muḥammad, to destroy and annihilate Him; for they much feared the appearance of the promised Manifestation, and they sought to kill any of Muḥammad’s descendants who might be highly esteemed.
4 71 The Arabian Peninsula became the abode and dwelling place, and the center of the Law of God.
Verse 6. “That they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.” In the terminology of the Holy Book these twelve hundred and sixty days mean the twelve hundred and sixty years that the Law of God was set up in the wilderness of Arabia, the great desert: from it the Promised One has come. After twelve hundred and sixty years that Law will have no more influence, for the fruit of that tree will have appeared, and the result will have been produced.
Consider how the prophecies correspond to one another. In the Apocalypse, the appearance of the Promised One is appointed after forty-two months, and Daniel expresses it as three times and a half, which is also forty-two months, which are twelve hundred and sixty days. In another passage of John’s Revelation it is clearly spoken of as twelve hundred and sixty days, and in the Holy Book it is said that each day signifies one year. Nothing could be clearer than this agreement of the prophecies with one another. The Báb appeared in the year 1260 of the Hejira of Muḥammad, which is the beginning of the universal era-reckoning of all Islám. There are no clearer proofs than this in the Holy Books for any Manifestation. For him who is just, the agreement of the times indicated by the tongues of the Great Ones is the most conclusive proof. There is no other possible explanation of these prophecies.​

 

[Tiberius]

Of course you can't. That is because you don't want to, and God knows that.
He knows that because He sees the whole of created time as if it was the past

If God knew a hundred years ago that I will wear the red shirt tomorrow, then I am going to wear the red shirt tomorrow. Doesn't matter how hard I want to wear the blue shirt, God knows I will wear the red shirt, and that's the shirt I must wear.

So it's not a choice.

Also, please pick any of the arguments you listed as evidence for God in post 2342, and I will explain to you why it is not a valid argument. You constantly refuse to do so. I suspect it is because you know that all of them fail as arguments for God.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No, the choices were NOT available.

If I weart the red shirt tomorrow, then God knew that I would wear it a hundred years ago. And if God knows that it is 100% that I will wear the red shirt and 0% that I will wear the blue shirt, then I do not have a choice. The blue shirt is not an available option.

A mind trapped in time,
time consumes the mind.

The key is you do not know what choice you will make until given the option. It is our heart that makes choices in virtue and morality. God knows where our heart is leading us to and as the future unfolds you will be faced with many choices, so like us all, we have to consider those choices.

All the best on that path.

Regards Tony

 

[muhammad_isa]

No, the choices were NOT available.

If I wear the red shirt tomorrow, then God knew that I would wear it a hundred years ago. And if God knows that it is 100% that I will wear the red shirt and 0% that I will wear the blue shirt, then I do not have a choice. The blue shirt is not an available option.

Oh boy!
Why do you keep on repeating the same old line?
Can you not read?
I have explained how this "apparent paradox" is false, yet you are ignoring that.

You DO have a choice. The only reason that the blue shirt "is not an option" is because you don't WANT to choose it.
If you had wanted to choose it, then God would 100% know it

Please, don't keep repeating this logical fallacy.

 

[CG Didymus]

I do not blame God for creating man with a spiritual nature and a material nature and the free will to choose between the two natures, because that is just, since God revealed teachings and laws for people to follow in order that they follow their spiritual nature.

By looking at our past, does it seem like we got enough of a spiritual nature to counteract the material nature?

That story sounds about right, and no, it is not metaphorical just because it is fiction because all fiction is not metaphorical.

Yeah, that's why I have a probably calling some of the stories in the Bible metaphorical. I think they are just plain old fiction.

 

[CG Didymus]

That is a good point, and God did exactly that, He helped us when He sent Baha'u'llah, and God is still helping us from the unseen realm.

“God’s purpose is none other than to usher in, in ways He alone can bring about, and the full significance of which He alone can fathom, the Great, the Golden Age of a long-divided, a long-afflicted humanity. Its present state, indeed even its immediate future, is dark, distressingly dark. Its distant future, however, is radiant, gloriously radiant—so radiant that no eye can visualize it............” The Promised Day is Come, p. 116

God’s Purpose

Please note what the following quote says.

“Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.”Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 7

God is the one who is going to help us get there, as noted above. We do not do anything by our own power alone; without the assistance of God we cannot do anything.

“Also the inaction or the movement of man depend upon the assistance of God. If he is not aided, he is not able to do either good or evil. But when the help of existence comes from the Generous Lord, he is able to do both good and evil; but if the help is cut off, he remains absolutely helpless. This is why in the Holy Books they speak of the help and assistance of God. So this condition is like that of a ship which is moved by the power of the wind or steam; if this power ceases, the ship cannot move at all. Nevertheless, the rudder of the ship turns it to either side, and the power of the steam moves it in the desired direction. If it is directed to the east, it goes to the east; or if it is directed to the west, it goes to the west. This motion does not come from the ship; no, it comes from the wind or the steam.

In the same way, in all the action or inaction of man, he receives power from the help of God; but the choice of good or evil belongs to the man himself.”
Some Answered Questions, pp. 249-250

I might catch up but only because I went through this very fast and only skimmed some posts that were not to me and ignored some that were to me. A girl can only do so much!

Well, it's after 3;00 on Friday and this is as far as I've gotten. To think that my responses I've made today are several pages ahead. But, when I get there in the future, at least I'll know what they say.

But anyway, I'd expect and want much more help from a loving and just God. I wouldn't even mind lightening bolts coming down and smiting some evil people once in a while. And that would at least be a little evidence that he is real. But, I know, those darn Atheists would write it off as coincidence.

 

[Sheldon]

Quite clearly your neurological diversity cannot ''compute'' diversity .

That's also meaningless gibberish sorry.

Ok , you can imagine a Mermaid , how far in distance do you stretch that imagination ?

Nope still gibberish.

If you only consider our oceans , that is shallow thinking .

A pun? You seem very confused, but something is not demonstrated as possible just because we can imagine it, no matter how outlandishly you try to embellish what is imagined with additional fictions.

Part of your confusion here is that you see to think asking you to evidence something is the same as making a contrary claim, but that is a common logical fallacy called argumentum ad ignorantiam. My only claim is that I don't know that mermaids are even possible, or deities for that matter. Your claims for scientific evidence are meaningless, as they have not been remotely validated by that method.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Doesn't matter how hard I want to wear the blue shirt, God knows I will wear the red shirt, and that's the shirt I must wear.

So it's not a choice.

Ridiculous
Almighty God knows you will wear the red shirt, because that's what you picked .. from His "point of view", it's already happened.
You therefore can't have wanted to pick the blue shirt, otherwise you would have picked it.

 

[TheBrokenSoul]

My only claim is that I don't know that mermaids are even possible, or deities for that matter. Your claims for scientific evidence are meaningless, as they have not been remotely validated by that method.

Knowing means knowledge , you have no known knowledge of Mermaids because you have not observed them . This does not mean they don't exist on some other planet in the universe . Frogs are amphibians so why not think humans somewhere else could be amphibians . Possible yes because we observe amphibian creatures all the time .

You really expect science to publish a paper that demonstrates so many errors in logic and thinking ?

They can't even get the meaning of time correct as I prior published .

 

[muhammad_isa]

@Tiberius OK

You have a choice of red or blue.
You can make any choice you like.
Hey presto .. it just happens to be what God knows.

..but you are saying that you haven't got a choice, because you have to pick what God knows.
That is deceitful. It is known as a modal fallacy. It confuses the scope of what is necessarily true.
"What God knows" is contingent [ dependent ].
Otherwise, one can argue that the future is set already regardless of your actions.

 

[Sheldon]

Oh boy!
Why do you keep on repeating the same old line?
Can you not read?
I have explained how this "apparent paradox" is false, yet you are ignoring that.

You DO have a choice. The only reason that the blue shirt "is not an option" is because you don't WANT to choose it.
If you had wanted to choose it, then God would 100% know it

Please, don't keep repeating this logical fallacy.

You have not explained it at all, your explanation is irrational and contradictory. I imagine that is why he repeating himself, in a vain attempt to make you understand that fact.

Choice A
Choice B

If a deity existed and knew which one of those I would choose, before I made the choice, my choice would have to be an illusion. It really is preposterous to claim otherwise, and the desperate and contradictory semantics make that fact manifest.

 

[Sheldon]

Knowing means knowledge , you have no known knowledge of Mermaids because you have not observed them ..

Nonsense, if there is knowledge of mermaids beyond what is pure imagination please do demsonrate it?

This does not mean they don't exist on some other planet in the universe .

Nor does it mean they do, well done you have created an unfalsifiable concept, which are meaningless of course, not even wrong fact.

Frogs are amphibians so why not think humans somewhere else could be amphibians .

Obviously because it is nothing more than unevidenced fiction.

Possible yes because we observe amphibian creatures all the time .

What objective evidence can you demsonrate that what you just imagined is possible? Only what you presented what a facile bare claim.

You really expect science to publish a paper that demonstrates so many errors in logic and thinking ?

I've no idea what you're talking about sorry? You will have to give me some clue as to context here.

They can't even get the meaning of time correct as I prior published

Again this rather bizarre and slightly grandiloquent claim doesn't seem to have any real meaning or context?

Can you demsonrate any objective evidence for any deity, or that a deity is even possible?

 

[muhammad_isa]

If a deity existed and knew which one of those I would choose, before I made the choice, my choice would have to be an illusion. It really is preposterous to claim otherwise, and the desperate and contradictory semantics make that fact manifest.

See post #3013

 

[Sheldon]

See post #3013

See my response.

 

[TheBrokenSoul]

Can you demsonrate any objective evidence for any deity, or that a deity is even possible?

Your arguments lack imagination as if you are some computer rather than having thinking ability .

I think therefore I am not the same as a rock !

I think therefore I am different from matter !

I think therefore I am objective evidence of a possibility of a deity or intelligent design !

We are objective evidence !

 

[muhammad_isa]

See my response.

You haven't yet responded to post #3013 ..
..well, maybe you have

 

[Sheldon]

Can you demsonrate any objective evidence for any deity, or that a deity is even possible?

Your arguments lack imagination as if you are some computer rather than having thinking ability .

That's a question not an argument.