Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That's right, just as your belief that Jesus was the Son of God and the third person of the Trinity could be true or false.
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Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?
- Thread starter Trailblazer
- Start date
rational experiences
Veteran Member
My proof is on hearing.
Birds chirp as bird life body life conditions.
You biologically hear birds chirping.
Sine gas burning fallout brain irradiated hearing father speak to me directly. He said I was his.....said my name. Stated science had made it personal.
Could not get nor own any more proof than I gained myself. Not a God believer.
Thought I would die. He saved me.
Brown burning wisping smoke seen burning felt bodily.
Since then with birds chirping is a cojoined man's voice speaking.
I cannot be wrong.
Men historic natives said my spirit was cursed I became an animal.
The human memory says.
O earth it's heavens in space was the lost God angels O multi bodies. Some totally exploded. O.
Water mass extra to gas mass filled in more space. Gas cold then water.
Vacuum void proof.
Water is natural.by mass only.
Water.
Spirit body in eternal state. Not in creation. Moved across into creation. Same base spirit.
Water changed the spirit into a lesser being.
Why we have water within and live inside of water heavens.
We die. Another proof we don't belong. As it is a Transitional experience.
The nature plus human was first. No animals.
Due to science nature changed...animals came out of spirit once only human owned. Spirit changed.
I heard it. I live it daily. I know it's real. Cannot have any experience to know or understand unless it occurs to the human their self.
I always told the truth was taught not to lie by my mother. I uphold my human rights to claim I am as honest as a Human could be in a human experience.
I learnt healing charged no one said I did not own it. Was taught.
Birds chirp as bird life body life conditions.
You biologically hear birds chirping.
Sine gas burning fallout brain irradiated hearing father speak to me directly. He said I was his.....said my name. Stated science had made it personal.
Could not get nor own any more proof than I gained myself. Not a God believer.
Thought I would die. He saved me.
Brown burning wisping smoke seen burning felt bodily.
Since then with birds chirping is a cojoined man's voice speaking.
I cannot be wrong.
Men historic natives said my spirit was cursed I became an animal.
The human memory says.
O earth it's heavens in space was the lost God angels O multi bodies. Some totally exploded. O.
Water mass extra to gas mass filled in more space. Gas cold then water.
Vacuum void proof.
Water is natural.by mass only.
Water.
Spirit body in eternal state. Not in creation. Moved across into creation. Same base spirit.
Water changed the spirit into a lesser being.
Why we have water within and live inside of water heavens.
We die. Another proof we don't belong. As it is a Transitional experience.
The nature plus human was first. No animals.
Due to science nature changed...animals came out of spirit once only human owned. Spirit changed.
I heard it. I live it daily. I know it's real. Cannot have any experience to know or understand unless it occurs to the human their self.
I always told the truth was taught not to lie by my mother. I uphold my human rights to claim I am as honest as a Human could be in a human experience.
I learnt healing charged no one said I did not own it. Was taught.
Would you at least agree that the vast majority of messengers are liars and deceivers of those who believe them? Walk with me for a minute;
*According to all of the Christian messengers, God has a son named Jesus who was Executed by the Romans and rose 3 days later and ascended to Heaven
*According to all of the Islamic messengers, God does not have a son but Jesus was a prophet of God (Allah) and was never crucified, but was taken directly to Heaven by Allah.
With this bit of logic you must agree that either all Islamic messengers, OR all Christian messengers are liars; they both can’t be telling the truth because their claims contradict each other. This idea that all religions lead to the same God they just call him a different name is the view of those ignorant of religions IMO. Now let’s throw Hinduism in this mix
*According to all of the Hindu messengers, Brahma created the Universe and everything in it; and before you go saying same God just different interpretations of God, NO Brahma was actually born! Where as Allah (Islam God) and Yahweh (Christian God) have an eternal existence as creators of the Universe and everything in it.
So you can throw all of the Hindu messengers into the loop of liars if any of the other two mentioned are telling the truth; or you can claim Hindu messengers are truthful and Islam and Christian messengers are liars. (or you can do like me and believe they are all liars)
Again; would you at least agree the vast majority of messengers are liars, and deceiving those who believe them?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
The vast majority of men who claimed to be Messengers were false claimants so they were either deluded or they were liars, con men aspiring to fame or fortune.
The Baha'is believe there were only a numbered few true Messengers of God who we refer to as Manifestations of God who appeared independently (e.g.,Abraham, Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster, Buddha, Christ, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah). These men received communication from God, ushered in a new religious cycle and established a true religion. There are other kinds of Prophets who received inspiration from God but they did not establish a new religion.
The Three Kinds of Prophets
I understand what you are saying but here is the problem.... None of this is according to the actual Messengers if God, it is all according to what the followers of those Messengers believed about the Messengers, which came from doctrines and dogmas which came from misinterpretation of the scriptures they had. In short, the older religions have been corrupted by man over the course of time, as Baha'u'llah wrote:
“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth. Their falsity hath, in some cases, been exposed when the intervening veils were rent asunder. They themselves have acknowledged their failure in apprehending the meaning of any of the words of God.”
Gleanings, pp. 171-172
The other problem is that the older religions have no original scriptures penned in the hand of the Messenger himself. The teachings were passed down through word of mouth so there is no way we can ever know that is what the Messenger actually taught. The only Messengers of God who wrote their own scriptures were the Baha'i Messengers, the Bab and Baha'u'llah, and as such we know exactly what they taught.
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
You got it!
My belief is not based on objective evidence.
Your belief is not based on objective evidence.
The difference, of course, is that I have never said that my belief is based on objective evidence.
So if the vast majority of Messengers are liars leading seekers astray, why would God depend upon such a system to get his true message across when he could just give the message himself?
A true religion? No; they established multiple religions that contradict each other. They all can't be right! Was Jesus the Christ right? Was Muhammad right? Or were some of the others you mentioned right; because the others must be wrong.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, you don't got it.
My belief is based upon objective evidence, which is everything that surrounds the Person and the Life and the Mission and the Writings of Baha'u'llah, as well as all the FACTS about the Baha'i Faith... All that is objective evidence because it exists/existed in reality.
How important are facts within your religious beliefs?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
God gave us all a brain and mind so it is up to people to differentiate between the false messengers and the True Messengers. It is not that difficult to eliminate the definitely false ones although it us not easy for everyone to identify the True Messenger of God when He appears, at least not for a long time after He appears.
God cannot deliver the message Himself in any way that humans could ever understand it.
The Messengers are not ordinary humans as they have a divine mind that can comprehend communication for God through the Holy Spirit.
The Messengers of God did not establish religions that contradicted each other, although the religions were different, since mankind's needs were different in every age.
These religions were once true religions, before they were changed and corrupted by men. God sent Baha'u'llah, a new Messenger with a new message that is not corrupted and He explained what happened with the religions of the past, which is why Baha'is know what happened.
“All that lives, and this includes the religions, have springtime, a time of maturity, of harvest and wintertime. Then religion becomes barren, a lifeless adherence to the letter uninformed by the spirit, and man’s spiritual life declines. When we look at religious history, we see that God has spoken to men precisely at times when they have reached the nadir of their degradation and cultural decadence. Moses came to Israel when it was languishing under the Pharaoh’s yoke, Christ appeared at a time when the Jewish Faith had lost its power and culture of antiquity was in its death those. Muhammad came to a people who lived in barbaric ignorance at the lowest level of culture and into a world in which the former religions had strayed far away from their origins and nearly lost their identity. The Bab addressed Himself to a people who had irretrievably lost their former grandeur and who found themselves in a state of hopeless decadence. Baha’u’llah came to a humanity which was approaching the most critical phase of its history.
‘Abdu’l-Baha writes: ‘God leaves not His children comfortless, but, when the darkness of winter overshadows them, then again He sends His Messengers, the Prophets, with a renewal of the blessed spring. The Sun of Truth appears again on the horizon of the world shining into the eyes of those who sleep, awaking them to behold the glory of a new dawn. Then again will the tree of humanity blossom and bring forth the fruit of righteousness for the healing of the nations.’ Paris Talks, p. 32.’
Some conclusions can be drawn from this fundamental belief. First, all religions are divine in essence and consequently there are no religions which contradict or exclude each other, but only one indivisible divine religion which is renewed periodically and according to the requirements of the age, in cycles of about a thousand years: ‘Our command was but one word.’ Qur’an 54:51. It is therefore hardly surprising if many of Baha’u’llah’s teachings are to be found in former religions either expressly or in an embryonic form. As ‘Abdu’l-Baha says, the Baha’i Faith is ‘not a new path to immortality.’ quoted from: Principles of the Baha’i Faith. On account of this transcendent oneness of all religions, Baha’u’llah exhorted His people to associate with followers of all religions in a spirit of loving-kindness and to make of religion a cause of harmony and peace, not of discord and strife, of hate and division.
The second conclusion is that we cannot perceive what the essence of religion is and what it has the power to achieve if we examine the traditional great religions in their present form. They have achieved much but have reached the end of their road; they were the foundation of great cultures and for thousands of years they were the guiding-star of millions of people in their everyday life and activities. But during the course of history they have also accumulated large amounts of historical ballast. They have moved a long way from their origin and are burdened with their followers’ misdeeds and cravings for power. They are no pleasant sight today, least of all to young people, who no longer see in these religions the ‘salt of the earth’ as Jesus called his disciples, Matthew 5:13 but rather the ‘opium of the people’ (Karl Marx). And one is easily inclined to pass judgment on religion as a whole, and to see in it an anachronism of past times, long since overcome, like the belief in demons in former times. But a withered plant does not give us the faintest idea of its blossoming time. In reality, religions are the ‘light of the world’ and, according to Baha’u’llah’s teachings, the foundation of human culture. It is important to understand that they are as necessary for mankind as sunlight for the plant. Without divine revelation, there would be neither progress nor culture: ‘Were this revelation to be withdrawn, all would perish.’ Taken from (Baha’u’llah, Gleanings, XCIII).
(Udo Schaefer, The Light Shineth in Darkness, pp. 24-26)
rational experiences
Veteran Member
They all express a type of truth.
Teaching depends on the human teaching by concept.
Jesus was a written document referencing a pre written document.
A concept teaching.
God O the earth owned in science it's own heavens.
Humans living within the heavens uses gods spirit but only god owned it. A human inherited it.
Water. As sink holes opened water is seen in the cause evaporates returns into heavens where water was. Our lived life support. Sin saved life by waters presence returned a teaching.
If no water existed in stone life would have been burnt to death.
Christian correct. Man was the scientist who caused it.
Allah status of course no human is earth O God or its heavens both mass states. Prophecy is science of man's predictive calculus science prophecy prophet causes.
Only man was the scientist.
Correct by concept teaching.
The God that created creation was born by exploring burning O God status in space womb. Science term.
Correct advice.
Christian Allah says the eternal body owned the birth change. It still exists in origin form only ...as it only lost one body.
Humans. Conscious storyteller advising.
Who was last to leave after the heavens filled back in empty space.
So the spirit who caused it inherited it.
Our story. Why did it happen. Where we came from. Position when it occurred for a being. After evolution cooling.
Man says I came from the eternal myself. Was not creations journey I inherited causes.
Most follow the false messengers though.
One of the natures of God is that he is Omniscient which means he has unlimited knowledge and ability. If God is Omniscient, he does have the ability to deliver the message himself in a way that humans can understand it.
rational experiences
Veteran Member
Our father is the eternal being using our fathers recorded human life memory as the communication causes.
I love him. He loves me.
I feel his love.
He told me his children are innocent of their inheritance. He however expresses human conditions also. And he does not love our brothers scientific dishonourable acts of inhumanity.
Why I know he is real as he does not lie.
rational experiences
Veteran Member
DNA national inheritance is a mind life body personal experience. Human diversity.
Look at each culture we own similarities yet express difference first. Is why information is said as a variable also. So wise men of every nation got together to try to instill basic human shared advice. And not cultural variations.
So you have the ability to communicate with God?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, I believe that most follow the true Messengers, Abraham, Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster, Buddha, Christ, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah.
Omnipotence means God is all-powerful.
Omniscience means God is all-knowing.
It does not matter that God had the knowledge and the ability. Humans do not have the ability to understand God directly. The only way that could be different is if God recreated humans and gave them that ability.
lukethethird
unknown member
So you have decided these messengers are true, on what authority?
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
And it's without a doubt true, because it is written in the Bible, which is the inerrant word of God, therefore it is true. How much more proof doesn't a person need?
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
And out of that 84% how many have a faith in something that the Baha'is would agree with and say is true?
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
So, God could make them with a higher spiritual capacity but would rather not? Yeah, thousands of years of people fighting and killing each other like the lower natured animals. Great plan.
As I pointed out to you before, their messages contradict! They all can't be telling the truth.
Again; if God has unlimited ability, that would mean he has the ability to communicate to humans in a way that we DO understand God directly.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Except for your prophets, The Bab and Baha'u'llah, how do you know those other ones were true messengers? Did you study them and find that to be true, or you're just going by what your religion tells you? Just like those Christians that "know" Baha'u'llah is a false prophet without studying about him and his teachings themselves. They just go by what their religion tells them is true.
Again, if God is the creator, he purposely made humans with a lack of spiritual capacity. Baha'u'llah, or even Abdul Baha, they had normal looking bodies. How different were they than other people? A little tweak in the brain is all it would take.