Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[Trailblazer]

So the original message of Jesus and the original message of Muhammad were in agreement? How do you know this?

The spiritual messages were in agreement although some of the social teachings and laws were different in order to met the needs of humans in different ages.

I know this because that is what my religion teaches but also by reading the NT and the Qur'an and seeing the same spiritual teachings.

I disagree; God's abilities has everything to do with this. If God can do anything, he can talk to me the same way you can talk to me. If God chooses to speak to me in a language I cannot understand, that is his fault not mine.

You can keep disagreeing if you want to and you can keep blaming God for making you as a human being who cannot understand God directly. It won't hurt God, it only hurts you, because you are left in the dark with nothing from God because you insist on getting it directly.

 

[samtonga43]

What religious cycle and which true religion did Abraham and Krishna usher and establish? And don't tell me that you don't care because you're a Baha'is and not whatever those other religions might be. This is your Baha'i claim.

Oh, and one of the messages Abraham got from this God was "Go kill your son." But then, you believe those Bible stories are fiction. But Abraham was a messenger of God? And if he was that means he was a messenger before there was a Baha'i Faith, so without using the Baha'i writings, can you show me why and how you think Abraham was a messenger of God and ushered in a new cycle and established a new religion? Since I doubt you can, let me answer for you, "I don't know, and I don't care." The Baha'i Faith says it. And you believe it. And that settles it.

LOL! This reminds me of the Bible-Belt Fundamentalist Christians:
The Bible says it.
I believe it.
That settles it!

 

[samtonga43]

No, you don't got it.
My belief is based upon objective evidence, which is everything that surrounds the Person and the Life and the Mission and the Writings of Baha'u'llah, as well as all the FACTS about the Baha'i Faith... All that is objective evidence because it exists/existed in reality.

???
But you agreed with me that your belief that the B.man is a messenger of God could be true, or it could be false.

 

[Sheldon]

If God is Omniscient, he does have the ability to deliver the message himself in a way that humans can understand it.

That makes no sense sorry, either way the deity would be more culpable for the failure, if it created the humans, not the other way around.

 

[Kfox]

They all express a type of truth.

Yes! Liars will often do this; they will tell you just enough of the truth to convince you of a lie, If they were interested in bring truthful, they would tell you the entire truth, not just specific parts of it, or a type of it. Good point.

 

[Kfox]

No.

My father spoke to my life as his owned status.

Ahh so your dad has the ability to communicate with God? Was your dad a messenger or Prophet of God? Because the person I was discussing with claims only messengers and Prophets of God can get God's message.

 

[Kfox]

The spiritual messages were in agreement although some of the social teachings and laws were different in order to met the needs of humans in different ages.

I know this because that is what my religion teaches but also by reading the NT and the Qur'an and seeing the same spiritual teachings.

Where in the NT does it say Jesus was a Prophet? Where in the Qur’an does it say Jesus is the son of God?

You can keep disagreeing if you want to and you can keep blaming God for making you as a human being who cannot understand God directly. It won't hurt God, it only hurts you, because you are left in the dark with nothing from God because you insist on getting it directly.

And you can keep disagreeing that even though you insist God has unlimited ability, he does not have the ability to talk to us the way you and I talk to each other.

 

[Kfox]

That makes no sense sorry, either way the deity would be more culpable for the failure, if it created the humans, not the other way around.

Nothing you've said refuted anything I've said. Explain how a God with unlimited abilities would not have the ability to communicate to us the way you and I communicate with each other. If you can do that, they you will have refuted what I've said.

 

[Sheldon]

Yes! Liars will often do this; they will tell you just enough of the truth to convince you of a lie, If they were interested in bring truthful, they would tell you the entire truth, not just specific parts of it, or a type of it. Good point.

Who are you talking to, and what are you talking about?

 

[Sheldon]

you insist God has unlimited ability, he does not have the ability to talk to us the way you and I talk to each other.

Then that's not an omnipotent deity you're describing, clearly.

 

[Kfox]

Who are you talking to, and what are you talking about?

The person I was discussing with insisted the people claiming to be messengers of all the various Gods of various religions were all speaking the truth. When I pointed out that they all give different and contradictory messages, he said they speak a type of truth.

Then that's not an omnipotent deity you're describing, clearly.

Yeah that’s clear to me, and clear to you, but try telling that to the guy I am discussing with that claims God has unlimited ability, yet has to have messengers because God doesn’t have the ability to speak to each us in a way that we can understand.

 

[Trailblazer]

Where in the NT does it say Jesus was a Prophet? Where in the Qur’an does it say Jesus is the son of God?

Muslims don't believe Jesus was the son of God, but they do revere him as a holy prophet.

Jesus was a Prophet and a Messenger of God, not God or the literal Son of God, because God had no offspring.

Matthew 13:57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.

Luke 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

Matthew 21:11 And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.

Luke 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.

And you can keep disagreeing that even though you insist God has unlimited ability, he does not have the ability to talk to us the way you and I talk to each other.

I did not say that God dos not have the ability to speak to humans, I said that humans do not have the ability to understand God. God cannot talk to you the way you and I talk to each other because God is not a human being.

 

[lukethethird]

It is God who granted authority to His Messengers as it is God who makes the ultimate decision.

So say you.

 

[CG Didymus]

As I said before, the messages are not the original messages because they were corrupted by men, so that is why they contradict now, but they did not contradict before they were corrupted.

That, to me, is a very weak explanation of why the different religions have contradictory beliefs. And, conveniently, it can't be proven true or false, because there are no "original" messages to compare the "corrupted" ones to.

How could I know they were true Messengers from studying them?

You can't. And it's worse for Baha'is, because the Scriptures from the religions themselves, Baha'is believe are corrupted or weren't literally true anyway.

I believe what Baha'u'llah wrote because He had knowledge from God.

So, a Baha'i is left with trusting only in what their prophet says is true. And he can't be wrong, because he got his information from God.

Humans do not have a lack of spiritual capacity, we have a spiritual capacity.

I'm talking about a capacity to know and hear God's voice the same as a manifestation. Since God did make some people with that kind of capacity, it's not that he can't do it. But, for some reason, wants to play the game of letting people fight and argue over which prophet, and which religion, and which concept of God is true. This method hasn't worked so far. And is still not working. There are reasons to believe and reasons to doubt every prophet and every religion. And it is the same with Baha'u'llah. You have your reasons to believe. And others have their reasons to doubt him.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Since God did make some people with that kind of capacity, it's not that he can't do it. But, for some reason, wants to play the game of letting people fight and argue over which prophet, and which religion, and which concept of God is true..

Not exactly.
G-d would prefer if we were all on the same page, but is not prepared to use "coercion" to achieve it.
It's called reality. If G-d forced us all to "believe" the same thing, then reality would be different.

You are arguing that if G-d made it clear to all of us what He wanted, we would all fall into line and submit.
Again, that is not reality.

 

[CG Didymus]

These men received communication from God, ushered in a new religious cycle and established a true religion.

Which included Abraham and Krishna, So I ask...

What religious cycle and which true religion did Abraham and Krishna usher and establish? ...This is your Baha'i claim.

We are in the cycle which began with Adam, and its supreme Manifestation is Bahá’u’lláh.

There is so little reason to believe Adam was a real person, let alone a manifestation. Yet, Baha'is make a whole cycle about him? Is the creation story real or metaphorical? Was Adam real or metaphorical? Then we move on...

Abraham is associated with Judaism, Krishna with Hinduism. That is all I know.

From Adam we eventually get to Noah. Was there a flood? Did Noah live to be 950 years old? True or metaphorical? Or, like I believe, mythological?

Then we get to Abraham. He supposedly heard God's voice and that voice told him to go kill his son. Did God really say that? Like you, I think all this in Genesis are just fictional stories. These are the stories about the Israelite people. It is their myths about creation and about how they came to be in the land of Canaan. Why does he have to be real? Why does he have to be a manifestation? And, if he is a manifestation, like Baha'is claim, then what religion did he establish? I don't think he established anything. The story is ongoing. If Abraham is a manifestation, then why not Noah, Melchizedek, Jacob, Isaac, or Joseph? They were all part of the same story leading up to Moses and the Exodus and, finally, to the Children of Israel conquering the Promised Land.

Then there's Krishna. People in India had lots of religious beliefs before there was a Krishna. Again, real or myth? Was the story about Krishna accurate? Actually, Baha'is have already made it clear that the Scriptures of all the early religions have been corrupted. But the story about Krishna is real? I doubt that is what Baha'is believe, but they believe in Krishna. Baha'is make Krishna real and a manifestation but reject what the Hindu sect that believes in him says about him.

Do Baha'is believe in the Scriptures that talk about the life of Krishna? No. Do they believe in the sects of Hinduism that believe in Krishna? No. There is no reason why a Baha'i needs to believe anything about any sect of Hinduism except, for the Baha'i, it was one of the "revealed" religions by the one true God and Krishna was his manifestation. But Krishna was the 8th Avatar. Why don't Baha'is believe and talk about the previous seven Avatars? Because they don't need them. They don't believe in them. And, I wouldn't be surprised, if Baha'is called those other Avatars mythical.

You don't care. You don't know. You don't want to know. You're happy knowing only what the Baha'i Faith says. Fine, but Baha'i keep saying things that ties in these other people and the other religions. What Baha'is say needs some clarification and some support for their claims. And it is usually "zero". And, in some cases it's a minus number, because the answer is worse than if there were no answer. If Baha'u'llah is the return of all the promised ones of all religions, there should be substantial support for his claims.

The religion true for you, that's just great. But then Baha'is say things that sure sound like claims. And people are going to challenge those claims. But even if you only call them "beliefs", they're still worded in a way that those 'beliefs" are going to be challenged.

 

[Trailblazer]

So, a Baha'i is left with trusting only in what their prophet says is true. And he can't be wrong, because he got his information from God.

That's right.

I'm talking about a capacity to know and hear God's voice the same as a manifestation. Since God did make some people with that kind of capacity, it's not that he can't do it.

No, God did not do it because an all-knowing and all-wise God knew better than to do something that inane and that stupid. If God spoke to everyone then everyone would have a different interpretation of what God meant and we would have an even bigger mess than we do now with all the religions, but that is a moot point because it would not work to get the messages of an entire revelation across. Direct communication from God to everyone in the world has to be the most inane idea anyone ever thought up.

But, for some reason, wants to play the game of letting people fight and argue over which prophet, and which religion, and which concept of God is true. This method hasn't worked so far. And is still not working.

This method had worked because most people belong to a religion that was revealed through a messenger of God. I don't see people people fighting or arguing over which prophet, and which religion, and which concept of God is true, except on forums, but this is not real life.

There are reasons to believe and reasons to doubt every prophet and every religion. And it is the same with Baha'u'llah. You have your reasons to believe. And others have their reasons to doubt him.

Then they can doubt and I can believe. God gives us all a choice. It's that simple.

 

[CG Didymus]

Not exactly.
G-d would prefer if we were all on the same page, but is not prepared to use "coercion" to achieve it.
It's called reality. If G-d forced us all to "believe" the same thing, then reality would be different.

You are arguing that if G-d made it clear to all of us what He wanted, we would all fall into line and submit.
Again, that is not reality.

Okay, most all religions at some time used coercion. On the other thing, there is a verse that says that when the Messiah comes all the people will "know".

Hebrews 8:11 No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.​

I think that in Revelation it says that all evil people and unbelievers will be done away with. Is there something similar to that in Islam?

So, I'm talking about the end-times now. I don't know your beliefs about the Mahdi and Jesus, but when they come, will people "know" God and follow His Law? If so, then what is going on with the Baha'is? They say that the Promised Ones have already come and gone, and we're all still fighting and arguing about God and religion. Nobody knows anything for sure yet.

 

[Trailblazer]

And, in some cases it's a minus number, because the answer is worse than if there were no answer.

You ask the questions but you do not accept the answers we give so that is why there are no Baha'is giving you answers anymore. You have already decided what the answers are so why ask us?

 

[CG Didymus]

No, God did not do it because an all-knowing and all-wise God knew better than to do something that inane and that stupid. If God spoke to everyone then everyone would have a different interpretation of what God meant and we would have an even bigger mess than we do now with all the religions, but that is a moot point because it would not work to get the messages of an entire revelation across. Direct communication from God to everyone in the world has to be the most inane idea anyone ever thought up.

You asked what would be evidence and then say mean things. Gee thanks. How would you like it if I said you're stupid and inane for believing stupid and inane things. And that your inaness is really stupid. But I would never stoop that low. Now let's see how God's plan has worked in the past.

So, God speaking from heaven wouldn't work. And if God raised the spiritual capacity of people to the same level as a manifestation won't work. And why is that? Because God is so stupid to let them misunderstand his direct message? Then God didn't raise their spiritual capacity very high.

Yes, it would be much better to keep sending people claiming to be from God. That only some people believe in. And let those people misinterpret his message and fight and argue with each other and start a different sect. All the while those that didn't believe in that messenger are messing up the teachings of the previous messengers. Yes, you are exactly right. A much wiser plan. Or... it is part of God's plan to increase the spiritual capacity of people...

In the future we can imagine humanity as a whole attaining greater and greater spiritual capacity as centuries and ages unfold. Baha’u’llah assures us that God will continue to send prophets and messengers in every age to guide humanity forward in its spiritual evolution.
​

And talking about Jesus, Baha'u'llah said...

By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things.​

So, who's inane and stupid now?